Good Field Gulls article on Pete

[Popeyejones]

As for PC, agreed that every team has players that get upset, but we're not having this coversation about every coach nor does every team necessitate this conversation. I think we're deep enough into PCs tenure on the Seahawks to conclude that the Seahawks under PC seem to be atypically afflicted with undisciplined behavior on the field (e.g. jumping offsides, trying to get in fights after games are effectively over, flipping off coaches from the field, etc,) and off-the field (e.g. fights and screaming matches on the sidelines, locker room fistfights between players, backbiting between players on social media, acting boorish to the sports media, the team getting repeatedly fined for players being too aggressive during practices). I mean heck, even Russell Wilson, who is maybe the most vanilla "good soldier" we've seen at the QB position in a decade backbit his coach in the media when PC innocuously said he wanted Wilson to further develop his understanding of the game.

We can debate if all of that is a coincidence or a consequence of PC's "player's coach" coaching style, but we can't pretend the conversation isn't happening, or that the Hawks aren't thought of around the league as pretty remarkably undisciplined team.

FWIW, to me, trying to shop Sherman reads a lot like someone who has realized they left the leadership reigns a little too loose, and is willing to move on from one of their best players to send a message that he's not gonna just fall on his sword for what he takes to be his previous mistakes. That's obviously just conjecture though.

Calling the Seahawks an undisciplined team is just stupid. No team, other than the Patriots, has been more consistently disciplined than the Seahawks under Pete Carroll.

The fact is everything you write, Popeye, has an agenda. It was not too long ago that you were predicting salary cap hell for the Seahawks, which never materialized. It's nothing more than concern trolling while pretending to be motivated by objectivity.

Concern trolling would be me posting under false pretense as a Hawks fan, which I've obviously never done.

The last time I posted about the Hawks cap situation it was about how they have more cap space than they had probably initially budgeted for, and the upsides and downsides of that. Before that the only thing I had to say about their cap space was a couple years ago about how they seemed to be using an NBA-style cap strategy, and now everyone in the media can't stop talking about how much of their cap room is tied up at the top of their roster.

You're just making things up.

As for your claim that the Seahawks are thought of as the most disciplined team in the league save for the Patriots, well, uhh, :lol:

They're known as an incredibly talented and pretty undisciplined team. It's why some Hawks fans get off on talking about how the Hawks are the heels of the NFL (fwiw I don't think that's true, but it's what folks who make that claim are referencing).

In any case, I find your ranting about my secretive and hidden agendas to be pretty tiresome and off-topic, so I'm gonna put you on ignore. Do the same. It's probably better for everybody

 

[Uncle Si]

You know, I know that in New England that Bill Belichick has seemingly jettisoned players each and every year throughout the years. I know that in a lot of cases, that's because of cap space issues. BUT, I just wonder, just wonder, if part of the reason is ALSO because Belichick doesn't want guys hanging around too long. Better to have a constant supply of fresh blood who is always hearing the message anew (constantly having fresh sets of hears to hear the same old message) ... than to have too many crusty old veterans hanging around who could have the potential to spread negativity and spoil things. When people hang around too long, that's when they start to see the chinks in the armor.
Veterans KNOW where the weak spots are and are at greater risk of becoming that complainer -- that rotten apple that just might spoil the rest of the bunch. Just a thought.

I've said this many times.

It was the first big criticism of Pete when he was hired, his critics said his rah rah "college style" of coaching would never work in the NFL because veterans wouldn't buy in.

So are we starting to see some of that criticism come home to roost now that he's deep into his tenure here? I'd say a little, yes.

Dave Wyman talks about this all the time when asked what's separates the good teams from the bad since the NFL is such a parity league..........and he says it's the buy in factor. Great teams and coaches continue to get their players to buy in, and thus produce the effort required to out will their opponents.

Maybe John and Pete are starting to figure this out, and thus the Sherman trade rumors are now running rampant.

Good point. Easy to buy in when you're winning big. Then we started to win ugly. The last couple seasons, we've started to lose ugly. If there is any residual discontent that is when it bubbles to the surface. As I've said before, the last Training Camp was a harbinger of things to come. Pete was all but ignored, even as he did his "c'mon guys - yeah!" routine. RW was off by himself even when he wasn't, with his new woman wandering around on the field with her son. It all just felt weird - felt off, and didn't feel nothing like a team ready to make a charge into the Super Bowl.

Last season confirmed that lack of desire from this team that was so evident in Training Camp.

You said it was injury in another post. Now it's lack of desire?

Full of crap

 

[chris98251]

Disciplined team, Patriots, Holmgren Seahawks, Coughlin Giants when he was Younger, he lost some control later and the last few seasons, Parcells and whatever team he coached.

Teams that have discipline don't mouth off without repercussions, they don't make dumb mental mistakes repeatedly in games. Problems tend to be dealt with quickly and depending on situations with the player finding himself out of games or off the team.

Pete has a discipline of sorts, he has in the past shown the door to malcontents or players that don't buy in, his game day is a different story, because he allows freedom of expression so to speak that can get emotional and then out of control easily.

He also now has a core group I think he has got closer to then he thought he would, those players push boundaries at times that players at arms length may not try to do.

Lynch and now Sherman and Baldwin have shown examples of this, Harvin did as well by refusing to re enter a game and he was shipped quickly after that.

 

[Hawkfan77]

This article proves just how long this off season has been...

 

[semiahmoo]

Disciplined team, Patriots, Holmgren Seahawks, Coughlin Giants when he was Younger, he lost some control later and the last few seasons, Parcells and whatever team he coached.

Teams that have discipline don't mouth off without repercussions, they don't make dumb mental mistakes repeatedly in games. Problems tend to be dealt with quickly and depending on situations with the player finding himself out of games or off the team.

Pete has a discipline of sorts, he has in the past shown the door to malcontents or players that don't buy in, his game day is a different story, because he allows freedom of expression so to speak that can get emotional and then out of control easily.

He also now has a core group I think he has got closer to then he thought he would, those players push boundaries at times that players at arms length may not try to do.

Lynch and now Sherman and Baldwin have shown examples of this, Harvin did as well by refusing to re enter a game and he was shipped quickly after that.

Great post. Agree on all points. Pete walks a very fine line between freedom and chaos. Last season appeared to tip too often on the chaos side of things.

 

[Hyak]

Beating the drum here but a big part of this is that the talent level of the depth players has diminished greatly from the clear high point of 2013. That's a result of poor drafting since 2012 although it does look like 2015 and 2016 were far better than 2013/2014.

The injury impact gets magnified when the depth isn't good.

 

[sdog1981]

When someone writes that they have an accuracy rate of 98.46 percent, it usually means they are not sure of themselves and likely are on the failing end by that same percentile.

I heard that 96.7% of statistics are made up.

 

[semiahmoo]

When someone writes that they have an accuracy rate of 98.46 percent, it usually means they are not sure of themselves and likely are on the failing end by that same percentile.

I heard that 96.7% of statistics are made up.

Nice. Real nice...

 

[Hawks46]

I dont agree with players not "buying" into Petes system anymore. Pete's system works...he has the championships to prove it. Its not a matter of buying in as its a matter of the players attitude towards things. Sherman's attitude has gotten out of control and he either needs to rethink things or move on.

none of the other older players on the team are acting this way. Doug Kam Earl Bobby KJ Bennet Avril are all still "buying" in.

This is really the crux of it. You have a bunch of smart and outspoken guys on the team. Smart people like to be treated like they're smart and not kids.

Bennett, for the most part, is outspoken but goofy. He's rarely saying something too detrimental. He will rip opposing players, but he'll also be quick to praise them as well.

Baldwin is another guy like Sherman; intelligent, well spoken, has a chip on the shoulder, and outspoken. Baldwin has crossed the line a few times, but he's also come out and either apologized, or recanted his position. He'll admit when he's wrong, and do it publicly.

Sherman, to my knowledge has never recanted a position or admitted he's wrong. That's a personality thing, and it doesn't reflect on Pete's coaching techniques or philosophy. That's Sherman. Either you are objective, or you're always right. No one is always right, but Sherman sure believes he is. And he's enabled because he's posted stuff on MMQB and has the media's ear.

The only way I see this as an endemic problem in the locker room is if the other players see Sherman crossing the line and not see Pete do anything about it. I also get the sense that Sherman is getting too big for his britches and it's wearing on some of the other players.

 

[Hyak]

I dont agree with players not "buying" into Petes system anymore. Pete's system works...he has the championships to prove it. Its not a matter of buying in as its a matter of the players attitude towards things. Sherman's attitude has gotten out of control and he either needs to rethink things or move on.

none of the other older players on the team are acting this way. Doug Kam Earl Bobby KJ Bennet Avril are all still "buying" in.

This is really the crux of it. You have a bunch of smart and outspoken guys on the team. Smart people like to be treated like they're smart and not kids.

Bennett, for the most part, is outspoken but goofy. He's rarely saying something too detrimental. He will rip opposing players, but he'll also be quick to praise them as well.

Baldwin is another guy like Sherman; intelligent, well spoken, has a chip on the shoulder, and outspoken. Baldwin has crossed the line a few times, but he's also come out and either apologized, or recanted his position. He'll admit when he's wrong, and do it publicly.

Sherman, to my knowledge has never recanted a position or admitted he's wrong. That's a personality thing, and it doesn't reflect on Pete's coaching techniques or philosophy. That's Sherman. Either you are objective, or you're always right. No one is always right, but Sherman sure believes he is. And he's enabled because he's posted stuff on MMQB and has the media's ear.

The only way I see this as an endemic problem in the locker room is if the other players see Sherman crossing the line and not see Pete do anything about it. I also get the sense that Sherman is getting too big for his britches and it's wearing on some of the other players.

Good post.

From MMQB (Peter King) on Monday (http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/04/10/tony ... peter-king)

• Sherman’s aware of the trade talks, told our Albert Breer he’s not upset about it, and apparently wouldn’t mind it happening.

• GM John Schneider and coach Pete Carroll have both acknowledged it’s possible.

• Carroll said at the NFL meetings recently, “Richard went through a lot last year, and most of it self-inflicted,” referring to Sherman freaking out on the sidelines once, and rebelliously questioning an offensive play-call that drew the ire of Carroll. That quote really stuck with me. Pete Carroll very rarely says anything about his players remotely negative, and here he’s saying something negative about one of his biggest stars.

• The Seahawks have to know that they’ve been so empowering with their players that this could give them the chance to start fresh on the attitude front. Marshawn Lynch and then Sherman went too far with that freedom. With Lynch gone, getting rid of Sherman for a fair price could be the logical next step for Seattle.

• Sherman at 29 for $22 million over two remaining contract years might be too tempting for cornerback-needy teams to pass up.

 

[Hawkscanner]

Disciplined team, Patriots, Holmgren Seahawks, Coughlin Giants when he was Younger, he lost some control later and the last few seasons, Parcells and whatever team he coached.

Teams that have discipline don't mouth off without repercussions, they don't make dumb mental mistakes repeatedly in games. Problems tend to be dealt with quickly and depending on situations with the player finding himself out of games or off the team.

Pete has a discipline of sorts, he has in the past shown the door to malcontents or players that don't buy in, his game day is a different story, because he allows freedom of expression so to speak that can get emotional and then out of control easily.

He also now has a core group I think he has got closer to then he thought he would, those players push boundaries at times that players at arms length may not try to do.

Lynch and now Sherman and Baldwin have shown examples of this, Harvin did as well by refusing to re enter a game and he was shipped quickly after that.

To me, this kind of comes down to the age old question that Machiavelli proposed in The Prince -- Is it better to be loved ... or feared? Machiavelli's answer was that it was better for the Prince to be feared. While fear and the traditional dictatorial approach without question yields results, I question just how sustainable it truly is to long term success.

Bill Parcells (whom Chris and others have already mentioned) was THE quintessential example of that kind of dictator coach. With Parcells, it was ALWAYS "my way or the highway". He was hard nosed coach who had very high standards and didn't put up with any crap. He was a hard nosed coach who often yelled and chewed his players out right in front of the entire team. While Parcells’ teams DID win, his act eventually wore real thin on his players and personnel alike. His style ended up alienating a lot people over time and many players couldn’t handle his overbearing nature. Same thing happened with Jim Harbaugh (just ask Doug Baldwin and Richard Sherman). Me personally, I just wonder just how effective (long term) such an old school “my way or the highway” approach can be with today’s generation of athletes, who are in general much more sensitive and much more focused on seeing that their own individual rights are respected.

I think we have seen in Seattle here over the course of the past going on 8 seasons now ... is that the opposite approach CAN work in the NFL. Pete Carroll has consistently shown that a coach (or anyone in leadership for that matter) CAN maintain long term success by showing respect, kindness, and basically allowing players to be who they are and treating them like family. For those who are really familiar with football in Washington State, that's basically the same approach that PLU's legendary coach Frosty Westering used (and was amazingly successful with) for nearly 30 years. It's basically a Love and Logic Approach (popularized by Jim Fay) that employs positive reinforcement/affirmation and a display of genuine care combined with allowing people to reap the natural consequences of their behavior/actions.

I would say that such an approach DOES work long-term IF the coach is able to walk that fine line balanced between respect for individual rights and expression ... vs. respect for the needs of the team as a whole. It's when players stop buying in and stop thinking of team first that problems arise. It will be very interesting indeed to see just how Carroll handles things moving forward this year. He has shown consistently that he WILL move players on (like Percy Harvin) who become a detriment to the team. We'll see what happens for sure.

 

[chris98251]

Disciplined team, Patriots, Holmgren Seahawks, Coughlin Giants when he was Younger, he lost some control later and the last few seasons, Parcells and whatever team he coached.

Teams that have discipline don't mouth off without repercussions, they don't make dumb mental mistakes repeatedly in games. Problems tend to be dealt with quickly and depending on situations with the player finding himself out of games or off the team.

Pete has a discipline of sorts, he has in the past shown the door to malcontents or players that don't buy in, his game day is a different story, because he allows freedom of expression so to speak that can get emotional and then out of control easily.

He also now has a core group I think he has got closer to then he thought he would, those players push boundaries at times that players at arms length may not try to do.

Lynch and now Sherman and Baldwin have shown examples of this, Harvin did as well by refusing to re enter a game and he was shipped quickly after that.

To me, this kind of comes down to the age old question that Machiavelli proposed in The Prince -- Is it better to be loved ... or feared? Machiavelli's answer was that it was better for the Prince to be feared. While fear and the traditional dictatorial approach without question yields results, I question just how sustainable it truly is to long term success.

Bill Parcells (whom Chris and others have already mentioned) was THE quintessential example of that kind of dictator coach. With Parcells, it was ALWAYS "my way or the highway". He was hard nosed coach who had very high standards and didn't put up with any crap. He was a hard nosed coach who often yelled and chewed his players out right in front of the entire team. While Parcells’ teams DID win, his act eventually wore real thin on his players and personnel alike. His style ended up alienating a lot people over time and many players couldn’t handle his overbearing nature. Same thing happened with Jim Harbaugh (just ask Doug Baldwin and Richard Sherman). Me personally, I just wonder just how effective (long term) such an old school “my way or the highway” approach can be with today’s generation of athletes, who are in general much more sensitive and much more focused on seeing that their own individual rights are respected.

I think we have seen in Seattle here over the course of the past going on 8 seasons now ... is that the opposite approach CAN work in the NFL. Pete Carroll has consistently shown that a coach (or anyone in leadership for that matter) CAN maintain long term success by showing respect, kindness, and basically allowing players to be who they are and treating them like family. For those who are really familiar with football in Washington State, that's basically the same approach that PLU's legendary coach Frosty Westering used (and was amazingly successful with) for nearly 30 years. It's basically a Love and Logic Approach (popularized by Jim Fay) that employs positive reinforcement/affirmation and a display of genuine care combined with allowing people to reap the natural consequences of their behavior/actions.

I would say that such an approach DOES work long-term IF the coach is able to walk that fine line balanced between respect for individual rights and expression ... vs. respect for the needs of the team as a whole. It's when players stop buying in and stop thinking of team first that problems arise. It will be very interesting indeed to see just how Carroll handles things moving forward this year. He has shown consistently that he WILL move players on (like Percy Harvin) who become a detriment to the team. We'll see what happens for sure.

Good post but using Frosty as an example isn't really a representation of the situation, Pete had great success at USC as well, but always a new influx of players eager and ready is coming thru the door while the vets graduate.

Here we have more then the game happening, we have money, salary, endorsements, and the Eye watching every player all the time for a news story to derail things. The Pros fight media and their skill set deterioration be it age or injuries, all the while the better they are the more money they make they are also always needing to step up their game to continue justifying that money or be cut many times.

Saying all that, winning brings players into the spotlight and the money, many of our players were after thought draft prospects or Free Agents, Pete's system made them stars, now we have been struggling in some areas, I have noticed a level of anxiety with many of the LOB, Earls retirement statement, Sherms frustration, Kams, injuries as well, others as well. The high stepping isn't there, the in your face confidence isn't there.

Could be the ageing of the players, could be most are now looking at the business end more then the achievement end of winning a Super Bowl, could be the mortality of a career approaching. Could be some conflict with the approach were using on offense which is Pete's fault completely, he is the one that hired Bevell, dictates what kind of offense we want to run, but Bevell does call most plays. The control issue that Pete has I think is much more then we understand in reality. Maybe some of this is after 6 and 7 years is grating on some players that see us slipping a bit and their perspective windows closing on opportunity for Money, Championships and fame. It may not be the team slipping completely but there is wear and tear in some places and this could be some in house finger pointing that's happening and the Good Ship Lollipop has a few leaks in it now that need to be fixed.

[youtube]WLLSqpYyPD8[/youtube]

 

[Siouxhawk]

It also comes down to the pride and character of our players. As long as we keep bringing in hungry guys from the draft and free agency, that should generate competition and spark something in our veterans. And if our players feel their mortality creeping up, they should really be motivated to make the most of the time they have left on the field.

 

[semiahmoo]

It also comes down to the pride and character of our players. As long as we keep bringing in hungry guys from the draft and free agency, that should generate competition and spark something in our veterans. And if our players feel their mortality creeping up, they should really be motivated to make the most of the time they have left on the field.

 

[justafan]

I like the way Pete handles his players.He lets them be themselves and when being who they are doesnt fit in with the team
goals they usually get the boot.

Imo a players coach cant come out and be a Lombardi or a hardass,I think it would be easier to be a hardass and lighten up on occasion.

Pete is gonna be Pete and I am glad he is our coach.

 

[semiahmoo]

I like the way Pete handles his players.He lets them be themselves and when being who they are doesnt fit in with the team
goals they usually get the boot.

Imo a players coach cant come out and be a Lombardi or a hardass,I think it would be easier to be a hardass and lighten up on occasion.

Pete is gonna be Pete and I am glad he is our coach.

You're right.
In the end it really is all about teamwork...

 

[sdog1981]

Pete Might be a coach who works on three/four-year cycles and with the salary cap that might be the way to go. Get your QB on offense and defense then move all the parts around those guys for the next 10 years. The team has one player at almost every position group to build around. Clark Dline, Thomas secondary, Wagner LB, Wilson, Baldwin WR's. I think those are the guys who need to stay no matter what and the team can just keep bringing in young cheap talent to offset what is lost due to regular NFL attrition.

 

[semiahmoo]

Pete Might be a coach who works on three/four-year cycles and with the salary cap that might be the way to go. Get your QB on offense and defense then move all the parts around those guys for the next 10 years. The team has one player at almost every position group to build around. Clark Dline, Thomas secondary, Wagner LB, Wilson, Baldwin WR's. I think those are the guys who need to stay no matter what and the team can just keep bringing in young cheap talent to offset what is lost due to regular NFL attrition.

You could be right.

The beginning of the end of the Pete Carroll era.

We had a great few years back in the day.

Big changes are likely coming...