Great article from the Ringer-Seahawks run

[MontanaHawk05]

It makes your team (and especially the defense) look better than they are, because it limits the # of opposing possessions.

As if the # of opposing team's possessions has no effect on the final scoreboard. :roll:

Seattle's rushing attempts total this year was right in the same neighborhood as 2013 and 2014. Nothing was done significantly different this year. Had Seattle's run blocking been up to its regular season form, and had the NFL's best linebacking duo not bizarrely flopped and given up a QB run on 3rd and 14, we're not having this conversation.

From that perspective, in my mind, the Schotty outrage is unwarranted. Concern, sure. Hell, I would have called a couple more pass plays here and there.

 

[John63]

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1/6/18168786/seattle-seahawks-dallas-cowboys-wild-card-round

NFL teams ran less in 2018 than any other season in NFL history. Rushing attempts per team per game dipped below 26 for the first time since at least 1936, when stats started being tracked. Meanwhile, teams also scored 23.3 points and gained 352.2 yards per team per game, the second-highest mark of all time for each category. These two stats are related. Passing is more efficient than running, and the entire NFL is running less and scoring more.

You’d never know it from watching the Seahawks, who fell to the Dallas Cowboys 24-22 on Saturday night because of a stunningly conservative game plan. Head coach Pete Carroll and offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer stuck to the run despite MVP-caliber quarterback Russell Wilson idling in the backfield like an unused getaway Ferrari in a bank robbery. Seattle followed up its only playoff-less season of Russell Wilson’s career in 2017 with something worse in 2018: a playoff loss that could have EASILY been a win had the Seahawks bothered to let their All-Pro QB Wilson you know...actually throw the ball and play quarterback.

^^^Just a taste. Complete article linked above. It is a pretty honest, objective take.

Its accurate, supported by facts, and pretty much every expert out there and our head coach who said they should have started throwing sooner.

 

[John63]

Seahawks played the style that gives them the best chance to win. They did all that passing offense stuff in the first games of this season and they lost. This team just was not ready for a super bowl yet, next year will be a different story.

First no one is saying going back to the 1st 2 games, the problem is they went from one extreme to the other. The first 2 games did not work because the oline cannot pass block, they still cant but the run slows the defense up enough most of the time. In the first 2 games they were to heavy pass. 33 passes to only 16 runs. They should be more like 28-21. Most importantly the passing game plan itself did not vary, lots of long developing pass plays, nothing short. in 2015 the pass first offense worked because of quick passing, making it so the pass blocking did not have to last long. So basically they decided to pass first and more but did not adjust the pass plan. Had they it would have worked. We have proof they could have and it can work from the Carolina game, which PC alluded to when he said we should have passed more earlier. We ran the ball 28 times, and passed 31. The mixed in the run and pass very well there were few run, run pass unlike the cowboy game. We were less predictable.

 

[John63]

It makes your team (and especially the defense) look better than they are, because it limits the # of opposing possessions.

As if the # of opposing team's possessions has no effect on the final scoreboard. :roll:

Seattle's rushing attempts total this year was right in the same neighborhood as 2013 and 2014. Nothing was done significantly different this year. Had Seattle's run blocking been up to its regular season form, and had the NFL's best linebacking duo not bizarrely flopped and given up a QB run on 3rd and 14, we're not having this conversation.

From that perspective, in my mind, the Schotty outrage is unwarranted. Concern, sure. Hell, I would have called a couple more pass plays here and there.

While I Can't speak for everyone I am not saying fire Schotty, only that he and PC need to adjust earlier. PC agreed so most of us are on the same sheet. Hopefully, they learned.

 

[chris98251]

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1/6/18168786/seattle-seahawks-dallas-cowboys-wild-card-round

NFL teams ran less in 2018 than any other season in NFL history. Rushing attempts per team per game dipped below 26 for the first time since at least 1936, when stats started being tracked. Meanwhile, teams also scored 23.3 points and gained 352.2 yards per team per game, the second-highest mark of all time for each category. These two stats are related. Passing is more efficient than running, and the entire NFL is running less and scoring more.

You’d never know it from watching the Seahawks, who fell to the Dallas Cowboys 24-22 on Saturday night because of a stunningly conservative game plan. Head coach Pete Carroll and offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer stuck to the run despite MVP-caliber quarterback Russell Wilson idling in the backfield like an unused getaway Ferrari in a bank robbery. Seattle followed up its only playoff-less season of Russell Wilson’s career in 2017 with something worse in 2018: a playoff loss that could have EASILY been a win had the Seahawks bothered to let their All-Pro QB Wilson you know...actually throw the ball and play quarterback.

^^^Just a taste. Complete article linked above. It is a pretty honest, objective take.

Its accurate, supported by facts, and pretty much every expert out there and our head coach who said they should have started throwing sooner.

No it's not if it says the Entire NFL threw more then ran, we know better since the Seahawks are in the NFL, and rushed more then we threw the ball.

 

[TwistedHusky]

The best players play even better in the playoffs.

Our best player is Wilson.

Wouldn't it make sense to adjust our approach in order to allow him to have more impact on the game, knowing that his escalating his level of play gives us a much better chance to win.

I get playing the %s but you are playing bad math if you think putting the outcome of the game on lesser players is going to pan out for you.

We relied on our average defense to save the game (which made no sense) in hoping it would not give up scores. That was a mistake.

We expected our offense to be able to keep the game close and then allow Wilson to come back near the end. But that neglects the reality that each failed offensive possession in the interim is going to make you have to spin the wheel with your defense. Some of those possessions are going to result in the opposing offense scoring.

They did and people blamed the defense. But those people are morons. Because the defense did its job. It allowed scoring that was below the league average. The offense did not meet the league average in this game. Your magic # is 28.

28 pts is what a winner generally scores. Our defense gave up 24.

We seemed to be satisfied when we hit 14-10 but we were nowhere near on pace to hit 28 and our defense was assuredly going to give up additional scores. So we lost - because that is exactly what happened.

 

[John63]

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1/6/18168786/seattle-seahawks-dallas-cowboys-wild-card-round

NFL teams ran less in 2018 than any other season in NFL history. Rushing attempts per team per game dipped below 26 for the first time since at least 1936, when stats started being tracked. Meanwhile, teams also scored 23.3 points and gained 352.2 yards per team per game, the second-highest mark of all time for each category. These two stats are related. Passing is more efficient than running, and the entire NFL is running less and scoring more.

You’d never know it from watching the Seahawks, who fell to the Dallas Cowboys 24-22 on Saturday night because of a stunningly conservative game plan. Head coach Pete Carroll and offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer stuck to the run despite MVP-caliber quarterback Russell Wilson idling in the backfield like an unused getaway Ferrari in a bank robbery. Seattle followed up its only playoff-less season of Russell Wilson’s career in 2017 with something worse in 2018: a playoff loss that could have EASILY been a win had the Seahawks bothered to let their All-Pro QB Wilson you know...actually throw the ball and play quarterback.

^^^Just a taste. Complete article linked above. It is a pretty honest, objective take.

Its accurate, supported by facts, and pretty much every expert out there and our head coach who said they should have started throwing sooner.

No it's not if it says the Entire NFL threw more then ran, we know better since the Seahawks are in the NFL, and rushed more then we threw the ball.

I did not see any place in this article were it said " Entire NFL threw more then ran"

 

[chris98251]

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1/6/18168786/seattle-seahawks-dallas-cowboys-wild-card-round

NFL teams ran less in 2018 than any other season in NFL history. Rushing attempts per team per game dipped below 26 for the first time since at least 1936, when stats started being tracked. Meanwhile, teams also scored 23.3 points and gained 352.2 yards per team per game, the second-highest mark of all time for each category. These two stats are related. Passing is more efficient than running, and the entire NFL is running less and scoring more.

You’d never know it from watching the Seahawks, who fell to the Dallas Cowboys 24-22 on Saturday night because of a stunningly conservative game plan. Head coach Pete Carroll and offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer stuck to the run despite MVP-caliber quarterback Russell Wilson idling in the backfield like an unused getaway Ferrari in a bank robbery. Seattle followed up its only playoff-less season of Russell Wilson’s career in 2017 with something worse in 2018: a playoff loss that could have EASILY been a win had the Seahawks bothered to let their All-Pro QB Wilson you know...actually throw the ball and play quarterback.

^^^Just a taste. Complete article linked above. It is a pretty honest, objective take.

Its accurate, supported by facts, and pretty much every expert out there and our head coach who said they should have started throwing sooner.

No it's not if it says the Entire NFL threw more then ran, we know better since the Seahawks are in the NFL, and rushed more then we threw the ball.

I did not see any place in this article were it said " Entire NFL threw more then ran"

See it now?

 

[John63]

Its accurate, supported by facts, and pretty much every expert out there and our head coach who said they should have started throwing sooner.

No it's not if it says the Entire NFL threw more then ran, we know better since the Seahawks are in the NFL, and rushed more then we threw the ball.

I did not see any place in this article were it said " Entire NFL threw more then ran"

See it now?

Here is what was said with regards to ran or run

"The Seahawks Just Ran Themselves Out of the Playoffs"
"NFL teams ran less in 2018 than any other season in NFL history."
"Fancy that! Seattle naturally ran the ball on first and second down for a combined 5 yards before Wilson bailed them out again on third-and-5, then watched Carson get a 1-yard rush and said “screw it, I’ll do it myself” and ran the ball in for a touchdown."
"Yet those games came against Kansas City and Arizona, who ranked 32nd and 29th in rushing defense DVOA. The Cowboys ranked fifth, and they played like it on Saturday."
"these two stats are related. Passing is more efficient than running, and the entire NFL is running less and scoring more."
"Head coach Pete Carroll and offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer stuck to the run despite MVP-caliber quarterback Russell Wilson idling in the backfield like an unused getaway Ferrari in a bank robbery. "
"he quarterback finished the game with 18 completions on 27 attempts for 233 yards and a solid 8.6 yards per pass attempt, more than three times as efficient as the team’s running plays."
"Their first drive of the third quarter featured two runs for 4 yards and a Wilson incompletion on third-and-6 that forced a punt and a three-and-out. "
"The drive after that nearly ended with a run, yes a run, by backup running back Mike Davis on third-and-7 that gained 2 yards."
"Under Schottenheimer (and likely at the direction of Carroll), Seattle was the only team to run more than it passed in 2018. "
"Admittedly, Seattle did quite well running the ball at the tail end of the season, managing 392 rushing yards in the final two games of the season."
"Unlike Baltimore, Seattle did not run in a unique style that changes the fundamental math of football and hides a raw quarterback, like when the Ravens have Lamar Jackson run a read-option."


No place does it say " Entire NFL threw more then ran" The closest thing is "NFL teams ran less in 2018 than any other season in NFL history." or "These two stats are related. Passing is more efficient than running, and the entire NFL is running less and scoring more."

And all 3 are true statements

Example this year the entire NFL ran the ball 13270 times but passed it 17671. So the NFL did pass more than run

 

[mrt144]

Oh my god are we going to have to go over sets, supersets, subsets and set notation?

 

[DomeHawk]

Great article. A team has to be able to adapt. We’re one of the few run first teams in NFL history with a QB as talented. We needed leverage that balance more often. Get one more receiver, invest in O-line depth, and focus more on keeping teams guessing. No reason we couldn’t pass more with the QB we have. A QB who’s more than capable of being in a pass first offense. No less than a Brees or maybe Baker Mayfield could

I am dead serious when I say this: make RW the co-offensive coordinator, he has put in the work and has a better feel for the flow of the offense.

I absolutely believe that he would do a better job of calling plays than Schotty.

 

[chris98251]

No it's not if it says the Entire NFL threw more then ran, we know better since the Seahawks are in the NFL, and rushed more then we threw the ball.

I did not see any place in this article were it said " Entire NFL threw more then ran"

See it now?

Here is what was said with regards to ran or run

"The Seahawks Just Ran Themselves Out of the Playoffs"
"NFL teams ran less in 2018 than any other season in NFL history."
"Fancy that! Seattle naturally ran the ball on first and second down for a combined 5 yards before Wilson bailed them out again on third-and-5, then watched Carson get a 1-yard rush and said “screw it, I’ll do it myself” and ran the ball in for a touchdown."
"Yet those games came against Kansas City and Arizona, who ranked 32nd and 29th in rushing defense DVOA. The Cowboys ranked fifth, and they played like it on Saturday."
"these two stats are related. Passing is more efficient than running, and the entire NFL is running less and scoring more."
"Head coach Pete Carroll and offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer stuck to the run despite MVP-caliber quarterback Russell Wilson idling in the backfield like an unused getaway Ferrari in a bank robbery. "
"he quarterback finished the game with 18 completions on 27 attempts for 233 yards and a solid 8.6 yards per pass attempt, more than three times as efficient as the team’s running plays."
"Their first drive of the third quarter featured two runs for 4 yards and a Wilson incompletion on third-and-6 that forced a punt and a three-and-out. "
"The drive after that nearly ended with a run, yes a run, by backup running back Mike Davis on third-and-7 that gained 2 yards."
"Under Schottenheimer (and likely at the direction of Carroll), Seattle was the only team to run more than it passed in 2018. "
"Admittedly, Seattle did quite well running the ball at the tail end of the season, managing 392 rushing yards in the final two games of the season."
"Unlike Baltimore, Seattle did not run in a unique style that changes the fundamental math of football and hides a raw quarterback, like when the Ravens have Lamar Jackson run a read-option."


No place does it say " Entire NFL threw more then ran" The closest thing is "NFL teams ran less in 2018 than any other season in NFL history." or "These two stats are related. Passing is more efficient than running, and the entire NFL is running less and scoring more."

And all 3 are true statements

Example this year the entire NFL ran the ball 13270 times but passed it 17671. So the NFL did pass more than run

So you didn't post that link that said

the entire NFL is running less and scoring more

that I highlighted and now you say that it didn't say it , I guess since it's under your name someone hacked your account then.

 

[DomeHawk]

And, while I am at it: FIRE SCHOTTY NOW!

That performance was more than enough to get anyone fired. Pull the trigger Pete!

I do NOT want to go through another 3-4 years of Bevel-esque frustration!

 

[John63]

I did not see any place in this article were it said " Entire NFL threw more then ran"

See it now?

Here is what was said with regards to ran or run

"The Seahawks Just Ran Themselves Out of the Playoffs"
"NFL teams ran less in 2018 than any other season in NFL history."
"Fancy that! Seattle naturally ran the ball on first and second down for a combined 5 yards before Wilson bailed them out again on third-and-5, then watched Carson get a 1-yard rush and said “screw it, I’ll do it myself” and ran the ball in for a touchdown."
"Yet those games came against Kansas City and Arizona, who ranked 32nd and 29th in rushing defense DVOA. The Cowboys ranked fifth, and they played like it on Saturday."
"these two stats are related. Passing is more efficient than running, and the entire NFL is running less and scoring more."
"Head coach Pete Carroll and offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer stuck to the run despite MVP-caliber quarterback Russell Wilson idling in the backfield like an unused getaway Ferrari in a bank robbery. "
"he quarterback finished the game with 18 completions on 27 attempts for 233 yards and a solid 8.6 yards per pass attempt, more than three times as efficient as the team’s running plays."
"Their first drive of the third quarter featured two runs for 4 yards and a Wilson incompletion on third-and-6 that forced a punt and a three-and-out. "
"The drive after that nearly ended with a run, yes a run, by backup running back Mike Davis on third-and-7 that gained 2 yards."
"Under Schottenheimer (and likely at the direction of Carroll), Seattle was the only team to run more than it passed in 2018. "
"Admittedly, Seattle did quite well running the ball at the tail end of the season, managing 392 rushing yards in the final two games of the season."
"Unlike Baltimore, Seattle did not run in a unique style that changes the fundamental math of football and hides a raw quarterback, like when the Ravens have Lamar Jackson run a read-option."


No place does it say " Entire NFL threw more then ran" The closest thing is "NFL teams ran less in 2018 than any other season in NFL history." or "These two stats are related. Passing is more efficient than running, and the entire NFL is running less and scoring more."

And all 3 are true statements

Example this year the entire NFL ran the ball 13270 times but passed it 17671. So the NFL did pass more than run

So you didn't post that link that said

the entire NFL is running less and scoring more

that I highlighted and now you say that it didn't say it , I guess since it's under your name someone hacked your account then.

Well first off as I pointed out that is true, but again the article does not say "Entire NFL threw more then ran" and again, either way, it is true I showed it, the NFL as a whole through 17671 times and ran only 13270, He does not say every team, he says the NFL that would be in total. I think that is where our disconnect is.

 

[John63]

And, while I am at it: FIRE SCHOTTY NOW!

That performance was more than enough to get anyone fired. Pull the trigger Pete!

I do NOT want to go through another 3-4 years of Bevel-esque frustration!

not sure it would matter not convinced it is the OC but the HC

 

[DomeHawk]

And, while I am at it: FIRE SCHOTTY NOW!

That performance was more than enough to get anyone fired. Pull the trigger Pete!

I do NOT want to go through another 3-4 years of Bevel-esque frustration!

not sure it would matter not convinced it is the OC but the HC

You might be right.

The reason I am so frustrated is, in so many years playing and watching the game, that might be the worst second-half offensive coaching performance I have ever seen.

I mean that.

 

[John63]

And, while I am at it: FIRE SCHOTTY NOW!

That performance was more than enough to get anyone fired. Pull the trigger Pete!

I do NOT want to go through another 3-4 years of Bevel-esque frustration!

not sure it would matter not convinced it is the OC but the HC

You might be right.

The reason I am so frustrated is, in so many years playing and watching the game, that might be the worst second-half offensive coaching performance I have ever seen.

I mean that.

I am with you been playing, coaching, reffing and watching for over 50 years

 

[mrt144]

And, while I am at it: FIRE SCHOTTY NOW!

That performance was more than enough to get anyone fired. Pull the trigger Pete!

I do NOT want to go through another 3-4 years of Bevel-esque frustration!

not sure it would matter not convinced it is the OC but the HC

You might be right.

The reason I am so frustrated is, in so many years playing and watching the game, that might be the worst second-half offensive coaching performance I have ever seen.

I mean that.

I am with you been playing, coaching, reffing and watching for over 50 years

For a team you're rooting for? Cause we could rattle off some humdingers for other teams

 

[John63]

not sure it would matter not convinced it is the OC but the HC

You might be right.

The reason I am so frustrated is, in so many years playing and watching the game, that might be the worst second-half offensive coaching performance I have ever seen.

I mean that.

I am with you been playing, coaching, reffing and watching for over 50 years

For a team you're rooting for? Cause we could rattle off some humdingers for other teams

LOL yeah we could

 

[scutterhawk]

Why is it that we blame the play calling when the play fails but when its successful we say the players did it? it just seems selective in trying to build an argument. Couldn't it be that the plays called were actually ok and that they players didn't execute? Why is Russel the king of passing when things go well (and he made some amazing throws) but when he can't complete on 3rd down we don't hold him accountable? Its very selective anger I am hearing.

I'm not arguing that we had a perfect game called by coaches but the bias against the play calling stinks like Bevell hangover...

game 1 and 2 we blamed the play calling too when we didn't run enough. Nobody was saying pass more then. people get angry that on 3 and 17 we run a conservative play which has little to no hope of being successful (there is more to it than that, long developing pass plays need good protection, create dangerous turnover scenarios - one we struggle with and the other we are allergic too). How about don't get in 3rd and 17 with penalties or sacks? Those down and distances do not succeed in the NFL, so playing the numbers makes sense.

We are in close games every game because of the same conservative mentality that we also complain about when it isn't successful. Its hard to lose but suddenly the heavy run game is the worst idea ever?

Dance with the girl you brought. /rant

If the OC is -> ADJUSTING <- he is -> OPTIMIZING <-, if he is staying with a game plan that isn't producing, he deserves the criticisms that are sure to follow.
The Cowboys were the 5th BEST Defense Against The Run all season, which called for a game plan that -> MAXIMIZES <- your Players to compensate for THEIR Players WEAKNESSES.