[tweet]https://twitter.com/hwkbgr/status/1060975447763288067[/tweet]
If Wilson isn't elite.....
- Thread starter Ambrose83
- Start date
Seymour
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2015
- Messages
- 7,459
- Reaction score
- 22
rcaido":244u5ziv said:
LMAO. Within 3 yard per game of what I posted in a completely different comparison of 3 years top passer stats.
Careful now....you may need to "wallow in ignorance" with me if you continue to prove his BS as grossly exaggerated.
Maybe those rule changes only effect average QB's with a last name between the letters V and X and that are 5'11" and under. Ya....that's the ticket.
TwistedHusky
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2013
- Messages
- 6,915
- Reaction score
- 1,106
Except 2017 was more the outlier than the rule wasn't it?
And again, the median is worse.
Right now, in 2018 we are averaging over 250.
It isn't just the rules that Manning and Brady schemed for that changed things. That was just a large shift, but the change to make it easier for QBs and harder on defenses started before that and has continued to this day. All of which inflate the #s. To the point they are not comparable with historic QBs.
And it does not change the fact that a number of very average QBs in the game are higher on yds per game basis than a lot of HOF QBs. The bulkd of the rest of numbers make this very clear.
If you want to pick 2000 as the point you think that rule changes made it easier on QBs because it makes your argument easier. Have at it. But the average QB today is much much better in #s than the average QB in almost any other decade. So using words like 'historic' to burnish Wilson's record is stupid, because a lot of QBs in history with worse #s were ridiculously better. And that was the whole argument, that Wilson isn't close to historically good - he just plays at a time very good QBs have great #s. And he has a whole lot of rules protecting his health that other past QBs did not get.
He isn't elite. He isn't top 3 right now at all. And no amount of playing the 'shell game' with statistics will change that.
He plays at a time that the NFL has made it much easier on QBs and there are plenty of #s to show this. While he has good to great numbers, so do Stafford and Ryan - are they historic too? Is Winson's amazing yards per game historic too? (Even though he lost his starting position?)
The numbers don't matter because everyone puts up numbers right now. Or more accurately, they matter less.
I am sorry if that hurts your delusion that somehow Wilson is a transcendent QB. Because Mahomes is showing there are going to be lots of guys like Wilson, and likely better than him as the pocket passer shifts to athletic mobile QBs. (Good god, imagine if Randall Cunningham played now)
And again, the median is worse.
Right now, in 2018 we are averaging over 250.
It isn't just the rules that Manning and Brady schemed for that changed things. That was just a large shift, but the change to make it easier for QBs and harder on defenses started before that and has continued to this day. All of which inflate the #s. To the point they are not comparable with historic QBs.
And it does not change the fact that a number of very average QBs in the game are higher on yds per game basis than a lot of HOF QBs. The bulkd of the rest of numbers make this very clear.
If you want to pick 2000 as the point you think that rule changes made it easier on QBs because it makes your argument easier. Have at it. But the average QB today is much much better in #s than the average QB in almost any other decade. So using words like 'historic' to burnish Wilson's record is stupid, because a lot of QBs in history with worse #s were ridiculously better. And that was the whole argument, that Wilson isn't close to historically good - he just plays at a time very good QBs have great #s. And he has a whole lot of rules protecting his health that other past QBs did not get.
He isn't elite. He isn't top 3 right now at all. And no amount of playing the 'shell game' with statistics will change that.
He plays at a time that the NFL has made it much easier on QBs and there are plenty of #s to show this. While he has good to great numbers, so do Stafford and Ryan - are they historic too? Is Winson's amazing yards per game historic too? (Even though he lost his starting position?)
The numbers don't matter because everyone puts up numbers right now. Or more accurately, they matter less.
I am sorry if that hurts your delusion that somehow Wilson is a transcendent QB. Because Mahomes is showing there are going to be lots of guys like Wilson, and likely better than him as the pocket passer shifts to athletic mobile QBs. (Good god, imagine if Randall Cunningham played now)
SoulfishHawk
Well-known member
:snack:
bmorepunk
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2011
- Messages
- 2,990
- Reaction score
- 201
There's definitely some eye-clawing going on.
Uncle Si
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2007
- Messages
- 20,596
- Reaction score
- 3
TwistedHusky":1at2ui87 said:
What about his stats through the 2016 season? Outlier as well. Or how about 2015. You didnt bother to look did you?
Why not just look at the stats instead of compartmentalizing them while at the same time broadening your definition of elite just enough to keep.him off the list.
Its not even discourse at this point. Its just stuttering "but, but" whenever someone attempts to provide data points to support their claim.
Maybe 2018 is the outlier. Or does that hurt your delusion. You've watched so much football... but dont remember Dan Marino? Steve young?
And i dont think wilson is top 5 at the moment. 6/7 for sure. But the absurd lengths this post and others go to move the narrative away from something more than opinion to grasp on to it is almost comical.
Randall Cunningham? Seriously?
Get a grip
Seymour
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2015
- Messages
- 7,459
- Reaction score
- 22
OK so you are stuck on 100 yards per game advantage Wilson to Brady or Brees when they started due to rule changes only. :roll: Lets just leave that a moment, and take a minute to reflect what disadvantage to give to Wilson for playing his entire career with bottom 10 pass blocking and Bevell calling plays and doing so under Pete's run first offense.
We've all heard you bitch about how bad Bevell and Cable was, now is your big chance to tell us how bad and the number you ADD to Wilson's stats for these handicaps? :snack: :snack:
We've all heard you bitch about how bad Bevell and Cable was, now is your big chance to tell us how bad and the number you ADD to Wilson's stats for these handicaps? :snack: :snack:
Shanegotyou11
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2017
- Messages
- 5,371
- Reaction score
- 381
https://www.fieldgulls.com/platform/amp ... ssion=true
What do you fans think? I know some are sick of this discussion but do you agree or disagree?
What do you fans think? I know some are sick of this discussion but do you agree or disagree?
TwistedHusky
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2013
- Messages
- 6,915
- Reaction score
- 1,106
It seems we are in violent agreement on Wilson, despite the back and forth sniping.
I consider him a top 7 guy that could be top 4 with the right system/offense.
But...whenever I see anyone use today's offensive stats and compare them historically make a case for 'greatest', I chafe a bit. Because it is much easier now than it was. By far. You can throw the ball away. You have the 5yd contact rule. You have QBs playing in the rule version of bubble wrap where nobody can touch them below the knees. And if a lineman so much as brushes the helmet with his hand, the flags fly.
Not even comparable.
The new rules make almost every aspect of being a QB easier, so the numbers just don't matter as much.
But back to Wilson:
The challenge on Wilson is that he isn't in the 'right system/offense'. And while he was handicapped, he also was given lots of opportunities to make mistakes that other QBs did not have. For years, he could 3 and out for the first half repeatedly and that defense would keep him in games. Those vaunted 4th quarter comebacks were, for the most part, made possible by that relentless defense.
Yet his offensive line was ridiculous and the offensive coaching was even more ridiculous.
However, now, he has a reasonably effective line. At least not the worst. And I still see people making excuses for the guy. At some point, an 'elite' QB has to produce despite the excuses.
I consider him a top 7 guy that could be top 4 with the right system/offense.
But...whenever I see anyone use today's offensive stats and compare them historically make a case for 'greatest', I chafe a bit. Because it is much easier now than it was. By far. You can throw the ball away. You have the 5yd contact rule. You have QBs playing in the rule version of bubble wrap where nobody can touch them below the knees. And if a lineman so much as brushes the helmet with his hand, the flags fly.
Not even comparable.
The new rules make almost every aspect of being a QB easier, so the numbers just don't matter as much.
But back to Wilson:
The challenge on Wilson is that he isn't in the 'right system/offense'. And while he was handicapped, he also was given lots of opportunities to make mistakes that other QBs did not have. For years, he could 3 and out for the first half repeatedly and that defense would keep him in games. Those vaunted 4th quarter comebacks were, for the most part, made possible by that relentless defense.
Yet his offensive line was ridiculous and the offensive coaching was even more ridiculous.
However, now, he has a reasonably effective line. At least not the worst. And I still see people making excuses for the guy. At some point, an 'elite' QB has to produce despite the excuses.
TwistedHusky
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2013
- Messages
- 6,915
- Reaction score
- 1,106
The biggest problem with Wilson is this:
What are the things that Wilson does great as a QB?
Mobile, can throw on the run and even across his body with tremendous accuracy.
Unflappable, never or rarely gets flustered or overwhelmed.
Does not turn the ball over. Keeps his team in the game, rarely puts his team in bad spots.
Great long ball. Can throw long with tremendous accuracy.
Turns broken plays into big plays.
Tremendously prepared. Takes advantage of opposing team tendencies and weaknesses.
Incredibly dangerous runner.
Now, what are the things he is doing now?
Not moving much. Choosing to pass from the pocket more instead of on the run.
Missing guys and throws. (Probably due to lack of rhythm and being asked to pass when everyone knows he has to).
Putting his team in holes by scrambling into sacks for big losses.
Creating turnovers by throwing interceptions.
Not reading defenses well.
Most of this was Wilson being great at things most QBs struggle with (like throwing on the run or across his body, or turning broken plays into positive plays) but not that great at many things most QBs are effective at (slant passes and using the middle of the field well, as a for instance). This all looks like the side effect of trying to use Wilson in more traditional ways instead of using him at the things he is very good to exceptional at. I don't think defenses have shut it down so much as we went away from it.
We are purposely focusing on having Wilson do things that are weaknesses for him while ignoring or barely using many of things that are his strengths. Is that on purpose? Is Wilson injured and this is a necessary adaptation? Or is this us trying to force a style of play into Wilson that he is not near the QB he was in doing this?
But if this is not because of injury, we are walking away from the things that made Wilson great in order to force him to be a different kind of QB in areas where he is closer to good than great.
What are the things that Wilson does great as a QB?
Mobile, can throw on the run and even across his body with tremendous accuracy.
Unflappable, never or rarely gets flustered or overwhelmed.
Does not turn the ball over. Keeps his team in the game, rarely puts his team in bad spots.
Great long ball. Can throw long with tremendous accuracy.
Turns broken plays into big plays.
Tremendously prepared. Takes advantage of opposing team tendencies and weaknesses.
Incredibly dangerous runner.
Now, what are the things he is doing now?
Not moving much. Choosing to pass from the pocket more instead of on the run.
Missing guys and throws. (Probably due to lack of rhythm and being asked to pass when everyone knows he has to).
Putting his team in holes by scrambling into sacks for big losses.
Creating turnovers by throwing interceptions.
Not reading defenses well.
Most of this was Wilson being great at things most QBs struggle with (like throwing on the run or across his body, or turning broken plays into positive plays) but not that great at many things most QBs are effective at (slant passes and using the middle of the field well, as a for instance). This all looks like the side effect of trying to use Wilson in more traditional ways instead of using him at the things he is very good to exceptional at. I don't think defenses have shut it down so much as we went away from it.
We are purposely focusing on having Wilson do things that are weaknesses for him while ignoring or barely using many of things that are his strengths. Is that on purpose? Is Wilson injured and this is a necessary adaptation? Or is this us trying to force a style of play into Wilson that he is not near the QB he was in doing this?
But if this is not because of injury, we are walking away from the things that made Wilson great in order to force him to be a different kind of QB in areas where he is closer to good than great.
It seems to focus on the negative aspects of Wilsons game instead of giving both sides of the equation. Which makes it hard to really foster debate because the analysis used is largely subjective.
To the author's credit, he isn't really hiding his bias "instead pick a sample of plays I think are indicative of the problem.". In philosophy, this known as "begging the question" which is to form an argument around your desired conclusion (knowingly or unknowingly) or assuming the conclusion is true before choosing where to look for evidence to support your theory. Karl Popper put it best when he said "If we are uncritical we shall always find what we want: we shall look for, and find, confirmations, and we shall look away from, and not see, whatever might be dangerous to our pet theories." . I don't blame the kid who wrote it, he mentions not having a lot of time due to school and that's fair. It's hard to cover all your bases when you don't have the time to do so.
I do think it's important to point out to readers that this is really just a distorted view of the situation as a whole. It relies partially on the narrative bias and the assumption that the Seahawks may or not be reining Wilson in on offense and that Wilson may or may not be slowing down. Two things that are hard to quantify relative to previous seasons because he's been on the injury report with a leg injury and just 2 years prior was slowed down by you guessed it a leg injury (albeit a more severe injury).
Ultimately, Wilson is having his second-best statistical season passing in a season where the Seahawks have 40+ million in dead cap space, on injured reserve, or on PUP. Which is around 15-20 million more than almost every other team in the league. Imagine what Wilson would look like if that money was spent on the offense instead of sitting on the sideline. Perhaps this team's issues are more a result of cap limitations than player or coaching limitations but that's not exactly a sexy topic to discuss when you are trying to get blog hits.
To the author's credit, he isn't really hiding his bias "instead pick a sample of plays I think are indicative of the problem.". In philosophy, this known as "begging the question" which is to form an argument around your desired conclusion (knowingly or unknowingly) or assuming the conclusion is true before choosing where to look for evidence to support your theory. Karl Popper put it best when he said "If we are uncritical we shall always find what we want: we shall look for, and find, confirmations, and we shall look away from, and not see, whatever might be dangerous to our pet theories." . I don't blame the kid who wrote it, he mentions not having a lot of time due to school and that's fair. It's hard to cover all your bases when you don't have the time to do so.
I do think it's important to point out to readers that this is really just a distorted view of the situation as a whole. It relies partially on the narrative bias and the assumption that the Seahawks may or not be reining Wilson in on offense and that Wilson may or may not be slowing down. Two things that are hard to quantify relative to previous seasons because he's been on the injury report with a leg injury and just 2 years prior was slowed down by you guessed it a leg injury (albeit a more severe injury).
Ultimately, Wilson is having his second-best statistical season passing in a season where the Seahawks have 40+ million in dead cap space, on injured reserve, or on PUP. Which is around 15-20 million more than almost every other team in the league. Imagine what Wilson would look like if that money was spent on the offense instead of sitting on the sideline. Perhaps this team's issues are more a result of cap limitations than player or coaching limitations but that's not exactly a sexy topic to discuss when you are trying to get blog hits.
Palmegranite
Well-known member
re: Thoughts on this Wilson FG article?
Well my thoughts are that if Wilson is now also kicking field goals, that must put him over the 'elite' line for sure...
Well my thoughts are that if Wilson is now also kicking field goals, that must put him over the 'elite' line for sure...
rcaido
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2014
- Messages
- 2,212
- Reaction score
- 488
so I guess elite QBs are not allowed to have bad games unless your name is Brady, Erin, and Brees...
Wilson only wins because he has Beastmode
Wilson only wins because he has best defense team
Wilson stats are only good because this is not like the 80s or 90z rules
Wilson only wins because he has Beastmode
Wilson only wins because he has best defense team
Wilson stats are only good because this is not like the 80s or 90z rules
Seahawkfan80
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2011
- Messages
- 11,219
- Reaction score
- 616
SoulfishHawk":1hwftqnu said:
I want some....... :jd: :happydrunks: ...and I cant find them....dammit.
Uncle Si
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2007
- Messages
- 20,596
- Reaction score
- 3
rcaido":2nl9yc4k said:
Essentially yes... and the support of that argument does not involve stats, from any era. I mean dont even try. It would only chafe some.
West TX Hawk
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2013
- Messages
- 2,476
- Reaction score
- 1
Have we met the quota on Wilson threads this week?
That article starts out positing if Wilson is past his prime. Stopped reading.
That article starts out positing if Wilson is past his prime. Stopped reading.
scutterhawk
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2010
- Messages
- 9,826
- Reaction score
- 1,797
Bull (cough, *^ cough) SHIT.TwistedHusky":2zpibwjz said:
Ya gotta quit smokin' that shit man, it'll muddle whatever reasoning mind ya got left.
Shanegotyou11
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2017
- Messages
- 5,371
- Reaction score
- 381
La rams DE Fowler says RW is top 8 qb.
So many relentless recycled monologues and repeated discussions droning on again and again may be what is driving so many bonkers. Like multiplying feedback loops that feed the amplification of an expanding, unintelligible and deafening echo chamber.
My take on what is left of the state of social dialogue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [youtube]mfJhMfOPWdE[/youtube]
Having posted that ...... feel free to carry on with the insanity.
My take on what is left of the state of social dialogue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [youtube]mfJhMfOPWdE[/youtube]
Having posted that ...... feel free to carry on with the insanity.
Scorpion05
Active member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2016
- Messages
- 1,722
- Reaction score
- 10
rcaido":tfao9ws9 said:
Lol yep. :irishdrinkers:
I Love this quote from Mike Vrabel about Brady:
"If you make him blink and go to a second read, you've got a chance," Vrabel told reporters. "If you let him rip it to the first guy he looks at, it's going to be a long day. We were able to combine the rush, the different patterns and the coverage."
Basically calling Brady a one read QB. Obviously, I know he isn't, but Brady crumbles when you pressure him or take away his first read repetitively. This is simply a fact if you live in the North East like I do and watch him play often
