Is Pete Carroll a victim of his own success?

[LTH]

So man people are down on Carroll for not making the SB more than twice in the past 12 years...people say that he makes poor coaching choices... people say that they don't draft well or they don't pick good FA. The argument goes on and on... and for the record I dis agree with these people but...

Is Pete Carroll a victim of his own success?

The NFL is set up to keep things even... what would happen if Carroll just tanked it every 3 years and got a top ten draft? Is it not conceivable that Drafting in the bottom 3rd of the league has to be a factor... I can't think of anyone besides BB that maintained a team that has enjoyed success drafting in the bottom 3rd and as seen in the last 2 years a lot of that success was due to Tom Brady...

Is Pete Carroll a victim of his own success?

what would happen if Carroll just tanked it every 3 years and got a top ten draft every 3 years?



LTH

 

[Jerhawk]

You don't tank with a top 3 QB.

He's a victim of his own success in terms of the scheme that was so effective 8 years ago is no longer effective, but he refused to adjust said scheme

 

[LTH]

You don't tank with a top 3 QB.

He's a victim of his own success in terms of the scheme that was so effective 8 years ago is no longer effective, but he refused to adjust said scheme

Really? seems the scheme is fine... but does he have the players to run that scheme thats the argument I hear from most..


LTH

 

[Jerhawk]

You don't tank with a top 3 QB.

He's a victim of his own success in terms of the scheme that was so effective 8 years ago is no longer effective, but he refused to adjust said scheme

Really? seems the scheme is fine... but does he have the players to run that scheme thats the argument I hear from most..


LTH

Carroll's cover 3 got figured out years ago. The offense, which now looks like our previous installments on offense (wonder why) has been figured out.

I get what you're saying, and yes, the more successful teams do suck for a couple years then have 4-6 competitive years if they draft correctly. Another issue has been our terrible use of 1st round picks. Whether you like Adams or not, that trade will hurt other positions that could've benefited from 1st round talent. Penny is a bust. Where's LJ Collier? Bust. Jordyn Brooks looks legit, but 1 out of 4 of our recent 1st rounders being any good? That'll bring the team down.

I'm not confident in what Carroll and Schneider would do with a top 10 pick. They try to reach and outsmart everyone, and that hasn't worked since Wagner and Wilson

 

[LTH]

You don't tank with a top 3 QB.

He's a victim of his own success in terms of the scheme that was so effective 8 years ago is no longer effective, but he refused to adjust said scheme

Really? seems the scheme is fine... but does he have the players to run that scheme thats the argument I hear from most..


LTH

Carroll's cover 3 got figured out years ago. The offense, which now looks like our previous installments on offense (wonder why) has been figured out.

I get what you're saying, and yes, the more successful teams do suck for a couple years then have 4-6 competitive years if they draft correctly. Another issue has been our terrible use of 1st round picks. Whether you like Adams or not, that trade will hurt other positions that could've benefited from 1st round talent. Penny is a bust. Where's LJ Collier? Bust. Jordyn Brooks looks legit, but 1 out of 4 of our recent 1st rounders being any good? That'll bring the team down.

I'm not confident in what Carroll and Schneider would do with a top 10 pick. They try to reach and outsmart everyone, and that hasn't worked since Wagner and Wilson

So its your opinion that if the Hawks had a top ten draft every 3 years they would squander the picks? or at least the first round pick? would they be more of a contending team than they are now is the question?

LTH

 

[TwistedHusky]

I will flip the question.

Would you consider the last 5-6 years a success?

In terms of regular-season wins?

In terms of playoff success?


Now, compare and contrast the # of teams with great QBs and their success rate.

Is it better or worse than a GB or a NO (w Brees) or the other teams with top 5 QBs in that span?
(Assuming this is subjective)


The thing is, you have to win when you get a HOF QB because at some point you won't have one. The whole winning gets a lot harder then. So the years you had one make up for that.

Is Carroll leveraging his top 3-5 HoF QB as effectively as he should?

Is he still leaning on defense and if so, why when it is one of the lower ranked defenses in the NFL?

Is he as a coach getting better or getting worse?

Are the alternatives better or worse? How?


The answers probably depend on the fan but for the most part, few would consider the past 5-6 years a raging success. So not sure he could be a victim of success he hasn't had in a while.

 

[LTH]

I will flip the question.

Would you consider the last 5-6 years a success?

In terms of regular-season wins?

In terms of playoff success?


Now, compare and contrast the # of teams with great QBs and their success rate.

Is it better or worse than a GB or a NO (w Brees) or the other teams with top 5 QBs in that span?
(Assuming this is subjective)


The thing is, you have to win when you get a HOF QB because at some point you won't have one. The whole winning gets a lot harder then. So the years you had one make up for that.

Is Carroll leveraging his top 3-5 HoF QB as effectively as he should?

Is he still leaning on defense and if so, why when it is one of the lower ranked defenses in the NFL?

Is he as a coach getting better or getting worse?

Are the alternatives better or worse? How?


The answers probably depend on the fan but for the most part, few would consider the past 5-6 years a raging success. So not sure he could be a victim of success he hasn't had in a while.

Your dodging the question if he is getting worse could that be because of picking in the bottom 3rd...is there any credence to that? how much of a factor is drafting position?

I would hardly say that winning the west is NOT successful


LTH

 

[Jerhawk]

You don't tank with a top 3 QB.

He's a victim of his own success in terms of the scheme that was so effective 8 years ago is no longer effective, but he refused to adjust said scheme

Really? seems the scheme is fine... but does he have the players to run that scheme thats the argument I hear from most..


LTH

Carroll's cover 3 got figured out years ago. The offense, which now looks like our previous installments on offense (wonder why) has been figured out.

I get what you're saying, and yes, the more successful teams do suck for a couple years then have 4-6 competitive years if they draft correctly. Another issue has been our terrible use of 1st round picks. Whether you like Adams or not, that trade will hurt other positions that could've benefited from 1st round talent. Penny is a bust. Where's LJ Collier? Bust. Jordyn Brooks looks legit, but 1 out of 4 of our recent 1st rounders being any good? That'll bring the team down.

I'm not confident in what Carroll and Schneider would do with a top 10 pick. They try to reach and outsmart everyone, and that hasn't worked since Wagner and Wilson

So its your opinion that if the Hawks had a top ten draft every 3 years they would squander the picks? or at least the first round pick? would they be more of a contending team than they are now is the question?

LTH

If we hadn't traded a 1st round pick for Graham, a 2nd round pick for Sheldon Richardson, a 3rd round pick for Clowney, two 1st rounders and 3rd rounder for Adams, then yes I believe this team would be in a better position now.

The only band aid trade they've done that's worked out so far has been Duane Brown.

And yes it's my opinion that if we had, for example, sucked in 2018 to get a top 10 pick, they would've squandered it or kept trading down because that's what history has shown.
Earl Thomas is the only 1st round pick that ended up being great and that was over 10 years ago

 

[LTH]

I will flip the question.

Would you consider the last 5-6 years a success?

In terms of regular-season wins?

In terms of playoff success?


Now, compare and contrast the # of teams with great QBs and their success rate.

Is it better or worse than a GB or a NO (w Brees) or the other teams with top 5 QBs in that span?
(Assuming this is subjective)


The thing is, you have to win when you get a HOF QB because at some point you won't have one. The whole winning gets a lot harder then. So the years you had one make up for that.

Is Carroll leveraging his top 3-5 HoF QB as effectively as he should?

Is he still leaning on defense and if so, why when it is one of the lower ranked defenses in the NFL?

Is he as a coach getting better or getting worse?

Are the alternatives better or worse? How?


The answers probably depend on the fan but for the most part, few would consider the past 5-6 years a raging success. So not sure he could be a victim of success he hasn't had in a while.

I mean come on he has made the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years and your saying he hasn't had much success? Im mean if he hasn't met your expectation thats one thing but to say he hasn't had much success is just lame...If we can't even agree on that then its not even worth having the conversation...


LTH

 

[Fade]

There's a pattern here, do you notice it?!

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SONTSeattle/status/1445614279026114564[/tweet]

 

[LTH]

There's a pattern here, do you notice it?!

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SONTSeattle/status/1445614279026114564[/tweet]

ok lets explore that...So am I wrong to say that you think it has NOTHING to do with draft position?


LTH

 

[Jerhawk]

There's a pattern here, do you notice it?!

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SONTSeattle/status/1445614279026114564[/tweet]

ok lets explore that...So am I wrong to say that you think it has NOTHING to do with draft position?


LTH

They have talent. Their scheme is the issue. The cover 3 has been figured out

 

[AROS]

It's all about defining success. Each fan has their own definition of what defines a successful season. Reaching the playoffs in nearly every season since he's been coach is pretty incredible. Yet, others will demand more than one and dones in the playoffs. And I get that totally. After all, ask Russell and Bobby if they are content with one SB ring.

They aren't getting any younger and the window doesn't stay open forever.

As to the OPs original Q, I absolutely do believe picking late in the first round every year has an impact. Look how the 49ers rebuilt themselves the past few years. They had all kinds of high draft picks and their D became a powerhouse until injuries took over.

 

[LTH]

There's a pattern here, do you notice it?!

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SONTSeattle/status/1445614279026114564[/tweet]

ok lets explore that...So am I wrong to say that you think it has NOTHING to do with draft position?


LTH

They have talent. Their scheme is the issue. The cover 3 has been figured out

seems like the Niners run a similar scheme and its worked out for them.

LTH

 

[Jerhawk]

There's a pattern here, do you notice it?!

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SONTSeattle/status/1445614279026114564[/tweet]

ok lets explore that...So am I wrong to say that you think it has NOTHING to do with draft position?


LTH

They have talent. Their scheme is the issue. The cover 3 has been figured out

seems like the Niners run a similar scheme and its worked out for them.

LTH

Alright I get what you're saying. They have elite pass rushers and Fred Warner due to having better draft capitol. Outside of Wagner and Adams our D is not very talented.
I concede my argument you got me there man.

 

[LTH]

ok lets explore that...So am I wrong to say that you think it has NOTHING to do with draft position?


LTH

They have talent. Their scheme is the issue. The cover 3 has been figured out

seems like the Niners run a similar scheme and its worked out for them.

LTH

Alright I get what you're saying. They have elite pass rushers and Fred Warner due to having better draft capitol. Outside of Wagner and Adams our D is not very talented.
I concede my argument you got me there man.

Im not trying to get you I'm just trying to explore this...


LTH

 

[Jerhawk]

They have talent. Their scheme is the issue. The cover 3 has been figured out

seems like the Niners run a similar scheme and its worked out for them.

LTH

Alright I get what you're saying. They have elite pass rushers and Fred Warner due to having better draft capitol. Outside of Wagner and Adams our D is not very talented.
I concede my argument you got me there man.

Im not trying to get you I'm just trying to explore this...


LTH

No no you're right. The 49ers were a perfect example.

I'll rephrase my original stance as:
It's not logical to tank with a top 3 franchise QB in his prime
Due to not tanking, and trading away draft capitol coupled with poor drafting overall, they are in the position they are now.

It's a combination of that imo

 

[LTH]

seems like the Niners run a similar scheme and its worked out for them.

LTH

Alright I get what you're saying. They have elite pass rushers and Fred Warner due to having better draft capitol. Outside of Wagner and Adams our D is not very talented.
I concede my argument you got me there man.

Im not trying to get you I'm just trying to explore this...


LTH

No no you're right. The 49ers were a perfect example.

I'll rephrase my original stance as:
It's not logical to tank with a top 3 franchise QB in his prime
Due to not tanking, and trading away draft capitol coupled with poor drafting overall, they are in the position they are now.

It's a combination of that imo

No its not logical to tank with Wilson but the way I see it they are trading there draft picks because they want to win now and they can't get the kind of value from the draft case and point JA. Now... the thing is they need to figure out exactly how they are going to use him... I think they know but its really hard to blitz and put the corners in one on one situations with out figuring out the corner situation... we will find out where we currently stand when they meet the Rams thursday...

LTH

 

[cymatica]

There's a pattern here, do you notice it?!

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SONTSeattle/status/1445614279026114564[/tweet]

ok lets explore that...So am I wrong to say that you think it has NOTHING to do with draft position?


LTH

They have talent. Their scheme is the issue. The cover 3 has been figured out

seems like the Niners run a similar scheme and its worked out for them.

LTH

I would say it's both. They don't have an elite DL and db's to run the scheme effectively, so it is the scheme and the players. I would bet the Niners also disguise coverage more and don't telegraph blitzes as bad but that's just a hunch

 

[AgentDib]

It's a no brainer strategy to tank every fourth year if you really do only care about Super Bowls. You can clear up your cap and reload with more draft capital than in five competitive seasons put together. That's just a silly thing to only care about, and there has been a lot of fun games over the last decade as a Seahawks fan besides our single Super Bowl win. Personally, I like our record against the NFC West and would hate the thought of losing six division games in some sort of tank year.

And yes it's my opinion that if we had, for example, sucked in 2018 to get a top 10 pick, they would've squandered it or kept trading down because that's what history has shown.

Consider that your list of trades also shows how much Pete Carroll likes blue chip prospects. We make those big questionable trades to try to get the top talent in because we don't think they are available where we are drafting. While they probably should trade down with a top pick, they wouldn't. Pete would be over the moon if they had a chance to draft somebody like Clowney or Bosa.