It’s a system thing

[AgentDib]

I am 100% convinced the majority of...

What does it mean to be 100% convinced? I don't think that's a good thing in this context.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The question here is if Russ could be happy in that 25-30 pass range where he's had really effective but lower volume games. Jets last season he was 21-27 with just 206 yards, but converted a bunch of third downs and threw 4 TDs in his best game of the second half of the season. Ultimately I think Russ does want to win, so if we think he can still execute that sort of game plan then we need him to buy into how effective it is.

Considering what happened last off season and the dysfunction we've been seeing with Russell's game?

I think we already know the answer. He considers himself on the same level as the other elite QB's in the league like Mahomes, Brady and Rodgers. Self confessed to want to be the greatest QB of all time, etc.

So no, I don't think Russell's content to be a game managing type of QB and make some key throws off of play action.

Nor should we want that for someone we're giving 20% of the salary cap to.

So again, either go find a new coach and staff who you think can run the offense through Russ, or trade him and go back to Pete Ball. Elite D, and run game.

 

[justafan]

When you have a top 5 QB in the league, you need to be able to accomplish more than Pete has the past 6 years.

When you have a top 5 QB in the league, he needs to get the ball out on time to his open receivers and play like a top 5 QB rather than keeping his offense off balance and off schedule.

Yeah he's been terrible for 6 years now. Maybe the problem is an Oline that hasent been good for years, a defense thats a laughing stock for half seasons, a coach with entirely way too much power that cant game plan, admits to not understanding what other teams are doing, has been terrible at drafting and over paying for FA's, is always slow to adapt whether its in game adjustments or his entire antiquated, outdated philosophy, has a mindset to play not to lose instead of playing to win, and has no future vision and is convinced the state of the team is just fine going forward.

I am 100% convinced the majority of the coaches in the NFL would have gotten more out of the Seahawks than Pete Carroll did the past 6 years.

With all the problems you listed how in the hell did we win so many games in 19 and 20. The only thing you didnt list was punting.
Either we are so talented we should have won 15 or 16 games a season with a better coach and ran through the playoffs or we have so little talent do to poor drafting and trades that somebody on the staff is doing something right.
If so many coaches could have done better why didnt they. They have drafted earlier and better and made better trades than we have but they still end up with losing records.

 

[AgentDib]

For those who don't think our talent has been low over the years, please consider the following:

1) Under a fixed salary cap the only way to have more talent is to get players who produce more than they cost.
2) Once a player hits FA they are typically a slightly bad value.
3) The low fixed rookie pay scale leads to enormous gains from rookie contracts if the player produces.
4) Therefore, the overall talent level of a team is directly correlated with how many good rookie contracts they have.
5) Our 2013 team was stacked due to rookie contracts, and once all of those players hit free agency our comparative talent level decreased to below average.

The only way to keep a high talent level over time is to continue to draft well. However...



The decisions by the front office to constantly chase short term benefits over the long term good has led to an enormous deficiency of draft capital over the seasons, and that in turn has led to a serious lack of talent.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Where is this elite D and run game going to come from if/when we commit to Pete Ball?

You know we don't have the roster to play 'Pete Ball', right?


All this talk about Wilson's dysfunction and no longer being effective is conveniently omitting that Pete is no longer good at everything he was great at - and was always below average at everything else.

The style of play that Ty Willingham loved and Pete grasped onto, will get you enough wins to tread water and it will keep games close so when you are beat it looks like you were 'close'

But that is it.

There is no way out of here playing Pete Ball. Because Pete doesn't have the roster for it, cannot build it, and probably couldn't coach it effectively even if he did. He could get you to .500 and bob around near that mark. But that is it.

(There is an interesting irony that winning with PeteBall almost seems predicated on one great player playing outside of it, often in the 4th quarter, to succeed.)

We aren't a below .500 team because Wilson is playing poorly, we are a below .500 team because of Pete. Wilson is just no longer good enough to compensate for it. BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

[justafan]

For those who don't think our talent has been low over the years, please consider the following:

1) Under a fixed salary cap the only way to have more talent is to get players who produce more than they cost.
2) Once a player hits FA they are typically a slightly bad value.
3) The low fixed rookie pay scale leads to enormous gains from rookie contracts if the player produces.
4) Therefore, the overall talent level of a team is directly correlated with how many good rookie contracts they have.
5) Our 2013 team was stacked due to rookie contracts, and once all of those players hit free agency our comparative talent level decreased to below average.

The only way to keep a high talent level over time is to continue to draft well. However...



The decisions by the front office to constantly chase short term benefits over the long term good has led to an enormous deficiency of draft capital over the seasons, and that in turn has led to a serious lack of talent.

Good post or posts.

Even being on the high end of the draft capitol scale there is so much luck involved it makes it difficult to keep a team stocked with quality depth of talent.
I get why they made the trades its unfortunate they didnt pan out.

 

[nutluck]

For those who don't think our talent has been low over the years, please consider the following:

1) Under a fixed salary cap the only way to have more talent is to get players who produce more than they cost.
2) Once a player hits FA they are typically a slightly bad value.
3) The low fixed rookie pay scale leads to enormous gains from rookie contracts if the player produces.
4) Therefore, the overall talent level of a team is directly correlated with how many good rookie contracts they have.
5) Our 2013 team was stacked due to rookie contracts, and once all of those players hit free agency our comparative talent level decreased to below average.

The only way to keep a high talent level over time is to continue to draft well. However...



The decisions by the front office to constantly chase short term benefits over the long term good has led to an enormous deficiency of draft capital over the seasons, and that in turn has led to a serious lack of talent.

To a point I agree with this but only to a point. Having more quality draft picks increases your odds of hitting, but if you have a FO that misses a lot with them it does no good. I mean you can have 10 1st round picks and if you constantly reach for picks etc and they don't pan out then those picks are not doing much for you.

It is more important to draft well with the picks you have even if you have fewer picks. The rams despite in recent years of having low number of picks have drafted well with the picks they have for example.

Also it is about developing that talent once you draft it or trade for it. For example Adams, yes I think we over payed for him mostly because the Rams got Ramsey for the same or less. But the bigger issue is I don't think the Hawks are using him in the way that highlights his best features. Same goes for some of the drafts where they switch the players to new positions. Like Reed when they switched him back to the other side he played a hell of a lot better.

 

[TwistedHusky]

It is a skewed graphic because we don't use draft capital like other teams.

Unless I am confused, draft capital is a # generated by the perceived value of the draft slot. Where a player is drafted is a function of a # of factors that we underweight. (Ability to immediately contribute is one)

We overweight potential and underweight current effectiveness. Our goal is not to maximize the chances of the individual pick delivering more value for us, it is to come away from the draft in aggregate with the better chances of getting a star player.

Us having less draft capital is a function of how we plan our roster building. This is also why we underweight the value of 1st round picks, leading to a tendency to trade them.

It isn't an excuse because it is part of the plan. We swing for the fences, knowing we are going to get more strikeouts. The problem is that lately we haven't been getting hits at the rate we used to.

 

[justafan]

It is a skewed graphic because we don't use draft capital like other teams.

Unless I am confused, draft capital is a # generated by the perceived value of the draft slot. Where a player is drafted is a function of a # of factors that we underweight. (Ability to immediately contribute is one)

We overweight potential and underweight current effectiveness. Our goal is not to maximize the chances of the individual pick delivering more value for us, it is to come away from the draft in aggregate with the better chances of getting a star player.

Us having less draft capital is a function of how we plan our roster building. This is also why we underweight the value of 1st round picks, leading to a tendency to trade them.

It isn't an excuse because it is part of the plan. We swing for the fences, knowing we are going to get more strikeouts. The problem is that lately we haven't been getting hits at the rate we used to.

I think most of the trades were plan D and E after plan A B and C failed.

We already had limited draft capitol due to winning and drafting later, so when our our OL picks didnt develop we traded for Brown. When our DL picks didnt develop we are making trades for Clowney and Dunlap. The worst part was when most of our DBs we drafted never developed or were injured and we traded or Diggs and Adams and the contracts that came with them.
I understand the trades for Dunlap, Diggs and Adams because our offense was going off. It could have gotten us to the SB if they would have continued and our D would have become close to a top 10 unit. But it was a strikeout.
9 or 10 picks on DBs and DL that dont work gets compounded by the trades.

 

[chris98251]

It is a skewed graphic because we don't use draft capital like other teams.

Unless I am confused, draft capital is a # generated by the perceived value of the draft slot. Where a player is drafted is a function of a # of factors that we underweight. (Ability to immediately contribute is one)

We overweight potential and underweight current effectiveness. Our goal is not to maximize the chances of the individual pick delivering more value for us, it is to come away from the draft in aggregate with the better chances of getting a star player.

Us having less draft capital is a function of how we plan our roster building. This is also why we underweight the value of 1st round picks, leading to a tendency to trade them.

It isn't an excuse because it is part of the plan. We swing for the fences, knowing we are going to get more strikeouts. The problem is that lately we haven't been getting hits at the rate we used to.

I think most of the trades were plan D and E after plan A B and C failed.

We already had limited draft capitol due to winning and drafting later, so when our our OL picks didnt develop we traded for Brown. When our DL picks didnt develop we are making trades for Clowney and Dunlap. The worst part was when most of our DBs we drafted never developed or were injured and we traded or Diggs and Adams and the contracts that came with them.
I understand the trades for Dunlap, Diggs and Adams because our offense was going off. It could have gotten us to the SB if they would have continued and our D would have become close to a top 10 unit. But it was a strikeout.
9 or 10 picks on DBs and DL that dont work gets compounded by the trades.

The DB's were perplexing that was initially thought to be Pete's strength, looking back I think it was Richards. After he became DC it curtailed, after he left it was a failure.

 

[AgentDib]

We swing for the fences, knowing we are going to get more strikeouts. The problem is that lately we haven't been getting hits at the rate we used to.

It's completely the opposite of that. Every team misses a bunch, but we've taken way less swings because we've finished better and then traded away what picks we do get for veterans. Our hit rate as a function of draft capital is perfectly fine.

Having more quality draft picks increases your odds of hitting, but if you have a FO that misses a lot with them it does no good.

Every FO misses constantly. The 49ers aren't burying us despite double the draft capital because they've had a ton of misses. It's also important to acknowledge that randomness increases significantly after the few blue chip players at the top of the draft. The FO would have loved to pick Nick Bosa or Quentin Nelson if they had a pick high enough, but would that really be a draft success? That's like Bill Polian getting credit for drafting Peyton Manning.

 

[pittpnthrs]

With all the problems you listed how in the hell did we win so many games in 19 and 20. The only thing you didnt list was punting.

#3

Either we are so talented we should have won 15 or 16 games a season with a better coach and ran through the playoffs or we have so little talent do to poor drafting and trades that somebody on the staff is doing something right.

Again, #3 has covered up the teams deficiencies for years now. This season he's hurt and missed games and couldnt do it so your left with a 5 win team.

If so many coaches could have done better why didnt they. They have drafted earlier and better and made better trades than we have but they still end up with losing records.

They dont have a #3 caliber QB.

 

[justafan]

With all the problems you listed how in the hell did we win so many games in 19 and 20. The only thing you didnt list was punting.

#3

Either we are so talented we should have won 15 or 16 games a season with a better coach and ran through the playoffs or we have so little talent do to poor drafting and trades that somebody on the staff is doing something right.

Again, #3 has covered up the teams deficiencies for years now. This season he's hurt and missed games and couldnt do it so your left with a 5 win team.

If so many coaches could have done better why didnt they. They have drafted earlier and better and made better trades than we have but they still end up with losing records.

They dont have a #3 caliber QB.

And

Wilson is very good but not that good. Its a team game. No one man wins 12 games.

 

[seahawksteve]

i found this article about the Seahawks drafts with Pete, interesting read.

https://www.hogshaven.com/2020/4/14/212 ... wks-drafts

 

[GeekHawk]

Seems like everyone here is forgetting that we hired a new OC with a completely different offensive scheme than the similar ones that came with bevel and scheissenhammer. I'm not sure how well Solari's O-line blocking scheme works with the new O, either. So, Russ and crew had to try and use a new O that wasn't practiced *at all* in actual preseason games, and it looked that way. So he reverted back to what he knows best so far in the pros, which worked as well as you might expect. Then he got injured. Then he came back too soon. I think that injury alone cost us like 4 or 5 wins this year.

I hope Jody Allen directs PC to keep his hands off the in-game offensive play calling, and I hope he lets Waldron do the offensive game planning during the season. Also that he fires Norton Jr and hires a competent DC...

When Russ gets more comfortable with actually running the Waldron offense I believe we will see a night-and-day difference in how it goes. There's no way that happens in Year 1.

 

[pittpnthrs]

With all the problems you listed how in the hell did we win so many games in 19 and 20. The only thing you didnt list was punting.

#3

Either we are so talented we should have won 15 or 16 games a season with a better coach and ran through the playoffs or we have so little talent do to poor drafting and trades that somebody on the staff is doing something right.

Again, #3 has covered up the teams deficiencies for years now. This season he's hurt and missed games and couldnt do it so your left with a 5 win team.

If so many coaches could have done better why didnt they. They have drafted earlier and better and made better trades than we have but they still end up with losing records.

They dont have a #3 caliber QB.

And

Wilson is very good but not that good. Its a team game. No one man wins 12 games.

He's been good enough to keep the team above water for years now. Team game is right though. Instead of everybody capping on the best QB Seattle has ever had and wanting to get rid of him now because he cant overcome the obstacles placed in front of him, how about fixing some of the obstacles. Guy begged for a better Oline in the offseason and the FO gave him a band aid instead of a fix as usual. Of course they had no problems giving away 70 million and a ton of draft capital to a safety they didnt even need though.

 

[nwHawk]

i found this article about the Seahawks drafts with Pete, interesting read.

https://www.hogshaven.com/2020/4/14/212 ... wks-drafts

So much “Madden” type movement, and so much trash. Drafting has been a failure for the Seahawks. As much effort as the Hawks put into it you would expect better results. Every team gets lucky from time to time. Improve player acquisition and this time would’ve done better in my opinion.

 

[chris98251]

With all the problems you listed how in the hell did we win so many games in 19 and 20. The only thing you didnt list was punting.

#3

Either we are so talented we should have won 15 or 16 games a season with a better coach and ran through the playoffs or we have so little talent do to poor drafting and trades that somebody on the staff is doing something right.

Again, #3 has covered up the teams deficiencies for years now. This season he's hurt and missed games and couldnt do it so your left with a 5 win team.

If so many coaches could have done better why didnt they. They have drafted earlier and better and made better trades than we have but they still end up with losing records.

They dont have a #3 caliber QB.

And

Wilson is very good but not that good. Its a team game. No one man wins 12 games.

He's been good enough to keep the team above water for years now. Team game is right though. Instead of everybody capping on the best QB Seattle has ever had and wanting to get rid of him now because he cant overcome the obstacles placed in front of him, how about fixing some of the obstacles. Guy begged for a better Oline in the offseason and the FO gave him a band aid instead of a fix as usual. Of course they had no problems giving away 70 million and a ton of draft capital to a safety they didnt even need though.

In normal circumstances you may be right, here he controls the front office, draft, player acquisitions, every aspect needs his approval.