Jim Harbaugh Says Ray McDonald Will Play On Sunday

[Front7vLOB]

People charged with a serious crime such as this should be put on paid leave until the evidence can be gathered.

He hasn't been charged yet..

:187734:

 

[Front7vLOB]

. I've only said that him being innocent or the 49ers PERCIEVE that he's innocent is the only thing that makes it all make sense to me from the position the 49ers have taken.

But they let Aldon Smith play when they clearly knew he ran his SUV into a tree and left the neighborhood with the smell of burning rubber and the sound of screaming tires. They knew Aldon wasn't innocent and they let him play that week and practice the day of the incident.

Doesn't that prove that McDonald being innocent or guilty didn't weight into their decision? They have proven that they will play someone that clearly did something extremely wrong.

What about Crabtree the week of the Green Bay playoff game back in 2012... We played him and after that game the SFPD announced there were going to be no charges.. Should we have sat Crabtree that game too?

 

[bigtrain21]

. I've only said that him being innocent or the 49ers PERCIEVE that he's innocent is the only thing that makes it all make sense to me from the position the 49ers have taken.

But they let Aldon Smith play when they clearly knew he ran his SUV into a tree and left the neighborhood with the smell of burning rubber and the sound of screaming tires. They knew Aldon wasn't innocent and they let him play that week and practice the day of the incident.

Doesn't that prove that McDonald being innocent or guilty didn't weight into their decision? They have proven that they will play someone that clearly did something extremely wrong.

What about Crabtree the week of the Green Bay playoff game back in 2012... We played him and after that game the SFPD announced there were going to be no charges.. Should we have sat Crabtree that game too?

I don't think you understand my point. Marvin is taking the fact that McDonald playing and tying that into the 49ers PERCIEVING that he is innocent. I am saying it doesn't matter if they percieve he is innocent because as they clearly demonstrated in regards to Aldon Smith when he crashed into a tree and let him play a few days later.

 

[Polaris]

. I've only said that him being innocent or the 49ers PERCIEVE that he's innocent is the only thing that makes it all make sense to me from the position the 49ers have taken.

But they let Aldon Smith play when they clearly knew he ran his SUV into a tree and left the neighborhood with the smell of burning rubber and the sound of screaming tires. They knew Aldon wasn't innocent and they let him play that week and practice the day of the incident.

Doesn't that prove that McDonald being innocent or guilty didn't weight into their decision? They have proven that they will play someone that clearly did something extremely wrong.

What about Crabtree the week of the Green Bay playoff game back in 2012... We played him and after that game the SFPD announced there were going to be no charges.. Should we have sat Crabtree that game too?

I don't think you understand my point. Marvin is taking the fact that McDonald playing and tying that into the 49ers PERCIEVING that he is innocent. I am saying it doesn't matter if they percieve he is innocent because as they clearly demonstrated in regards to Aldon Smith when he crashed into a tree and let him play a few days later.

Indeed, my take is considerably more cynical than Marvin's. My take is that the 49ners have already taken so many hits in the critical early season (where they can't afford to fall too far behind Seattle) on their defense (esp LB corps), that the 49ners have decided that they are going to continue to play McDonald for as long as they possibly can within the NFL bylaws.......appearances and morality be damned.

 

[kearly]

Pats are pissed that Hernandez is being held without bail. They could have really used him against Denver in the playoffs. They would really have liked to wait to see if he's convicted. :sarcasm_off:

Pure ownage.

Yup...guy on trial for multiple homicides is exactly the same as a guy who hasn't even been charged of a crime.

Just because a guy hasn't been convicted yet doesn't mean he isn't guilty. That's the meaning of the joke, citing Hernandez was merely exaggeration for effect.

I guessing you got that, but spun it anyway. I feel like I'm wasting my time.

Anyway, before you play the conviction card again, keep in mind that there is a precedent for Goodell suspending players without convictions. Big Ben got suspended for four games due to mere accusations of sexual assault, charges that he was NEVER convicted of.

And let's not forget, Ray Rice was never convicted of anything either. Even without the video, he was probably going to get at least a game or two.

In light of the shitstorm Goodell is under, he'll be looking for even more guys to make examples of. I would be very nervous if I was Hardy or McDonald right now.

I think you should just face reality and accept that McDonald is probably going to be suspended at some point. And given the evidence, it will *probably* be justified. I can't really understand why you feel the need to defend this guy so badly. He's just some guy on your defense.

Back in 2008, Rocky Bernard of the Seahawks was accused of domestic violence and when he served his suspension (no conviction, same exact scenario as McDonald), my response was screw that guy, he should have been suspended longer." Never once did I feel the urge to defend the guy or play devil's advocate. As far as I'm concerned, he got what he deserved. And so will McDonald.

 

[NINEster]

I wonder why Ray didn't just come out and say that he didn't put the marks on his girl, he didn't even have to explain how they got there, just that he didn't put them there. There are a few accounts from the police to local reporters that they existed and were in fact the trigger for his arrest.

Marks triggered arrest

"When she showed police minor bruises on her neck and arms, McDonald was arrested without incident. "

All McDonald said was "the truth will come out". I wonder what that is. That he pissed off his girl, she started slapping him around (no one mentioned marks on McDonald) and that he defended himself, including putting his hands on her neck?

Talking to the police is rarely ever a good thing to do, innocent or not.

Guilty statements are admissible in court, while seemingly vindicating type statements can be dismissed as "hearsay".

It is one of the craziest things in our legal system. Almost nothing you say to the police will help, but a lot can hurt.

There's a 40+ minute video on youtube of a law professor teaching a class, and he documents all sorts of reasons how an innocent person's formal statements can be misconstrued and use against him. Mind blowing stuff.

The only thing talking to police can ever do is if you have such a convincing argument, and you clearly talk them out of investigating you in the first place. But that is rare, and if they are set on pursuing an investigation, less words spoken is better.

This is probably why criminals do better in the legal system than normal people. They understand these rules and do not have any moral issues with "not talking", "trying to be appear innocent", "doing the right thing".

A jury might view the invocation of the 5th amendment as the defendant trying to hide something, but more often than not being able to craft a proper legal response is far more important than worrying about this perception.

 

[Brahn]

2 Rays and only one threw a right.

 

[Marvin49]

. I've only said that him being innocent or the 49ers PERCIEVE that he's innocent is the only thing that makes it all make sense to me from the position the 49ers have taken.

But they let Aldon Smith play when they clearly knew he ran his SUV into a tree and left the neighborhood with the smell of burning rubber and the sound of screaming tires. They knew Aldon wasn't innocent and they let him play that week and practice the day of the incident.

Doesn't that prove that McDonald being innocent or guilty didn't weight into their decision? They have proven that they will play someone that clearly did something extremely wrong.

EVERYONE knew Aldon was guilty.

Sitting him or not sitting him had nothing to do with what Aldon did, it had to do with his state of mind and what they already knew they were going to do right after the game.

Ray is a different deal...especially in light of the Ray Rice ordeal. Niners setting themselves up for a firestorm if he's guilty.

Again tho...I could be completely wrong on this. It's just a suspicion based on their actions.

 

[Uncle Si]

In most jobs especially jobs that required a good public image (think public school teacher as a good example), even an arrest and charges filed for Domestic Abuse would be enough to either get you fired or at the very least put on administrative leave (sometimes paid and sometimes not).

I have to wonder if McDonald was "Just A Guy" and #52 on the 53 man roster if the Niners would be so concerned about "due process". Same applies to the Panthers except more so (since in their case there's been a conviction that's being appealed).

I think that McDonald (or anyone charged in such a way) should probably sit (with pay) until the facts are in...but that would probably require a change in the CBA and the headaches that would cause.

I wouldn't have had a problem with the 49ers sitting him.

I just don't think they were somehow duty bound to do so and not doing so reflects something else.

I like Ray McDonald as a player, but it's not like he's one of the best players on the team or someone they just couldn't live without. In fact, they have a number of young promising players at that position, so I don't buy that as the reason he played.

Marvin.... here in lies I think the point.

The 9ers dont have to do anything. they can fall back on the legal system. and are correct in protecting their players in doing so.

In doing so they show the same complete lack of understanding when it comes to domestic violence that the league has. They are no more guilty that any other team in the NFL that has missed opportunities to set an example, precedent, etc.

You understand that though, I hope? you understand that the legal systems decisions do not necessarily reflect innocence and guilt. You understand, now, that the league has been culpable in playing the gray line and is now, finally, suffering from it from a public perspective standpoint.

And hopefully you know (or have learned) enough about domestic violence to know that there is a good chance your player did something awful to his wife/gf and that the incident will never be fully understood or dealt with because crimes of these nature rarely are for many reasons.

Think of what one game would have done for that organization, especially now. Did they have to? no, not according to rule or law? the 9ers had a chance. and missed it. Its your team. if youre comfortable with it, off you go then. your defending the 9ers right to do nothing, which to me is fine, but naive.

Should they have.... I guess thats the question that all NFL teams will have to start answering really soon.

 

[Brahn]

. I've only said that him being innocent or the 49ers PERCIEVE that he's innocent is the only thing that makes it all make sense to me from the position the 49ers have taken.

But they let Aldon Smith play when they clearly knew he ran his SUV into a tree and left the neighborhood with the smell of burning rubber and the sound of screaming tires. They knew Aldon wasn't innocent and they let him play that week and practice the day of the incident.

Doesn't that prove that McDonald being innocent or guilty didn't weight into their decision? They have proven that they will play someone that clearly did something extremely wrong.

EVERYONE knew Aldon was guilty.

Sitting him or not sitting him had nothing to do with what Aldon did, it had to do with his state of mind and what they already knew they were going to do right after the game.

Ray is a different deal...especially in light of the Ray Rice ordeal. Niners setting themselves up for a firestorm if he's guilty.

Again tho...I could be completely wrong on this. It's just a suspicion based on their actions.

Plausible deny-ability. Aldon was much more public when it happened. Had it happened in the Niner's facility parking lot we would of never heard about it.

House party 3 am and no one saw why the cops were called. But hey maybe she won't press charges because nothing happened. I mean look at Ray Rice's wife, nothing must of happened because she didn't press charges and still married him.

I bet the cops were called as a prank. Everyone will get a good laugh in. That silly Ray McDonald always the team cut up.

 

[Marvin49]

Pats are pissed that Hernandez is being held without bail. They could have really used him against Denver in the playoffs. They would really have liked to wait to see if he's convicted. :sarcasm_off:

Pure ownage.

Yup...guy on trial for multiple homicides is exactly the same as a guy who hasn't even been charged of a crime.

Just because a guy hasn't been convicted yet doesn't mean he isn't guilty. That's the meaning of the joke, citing Hernandez was merely exaggeration for effect.

I guessing you got that, but spun it anyway. I feel like I'm wasting my time.

Anyway, before you play the conviction card again, keep in mind that there is a precedent for Goodell suspending players without convictions. Big Ben got suspended for four games due to mere accusations of sexual assault, charges that he was NEVER convicted of.

And let's not forget, Ray Rice was never convicted of anything either. Even without the video, he was probably going to get at least a game or two.

In light of the shitstorm Goodell is under, he'll be looking for even more guys to make examples of. I would be very nervous if I was Hardy or McDonald right now.

I think you should just face reality and accept that McDonald is probably going to be suspended at some point. And given the evidence, it will *probably* be justified. I can't really understand why you feel the need to defend this guy so badly. He's just some guy on your defense.

Back in 2008, Rocky Bernard of the Seahawks was accused of domestic violence and when he served his suspension (no conviction, same exact scenario as McDonald), my response was " **** that guy, he should have been suspended longer." Never once did I feel the urge to defend the guy or play devil's advocate. As far as I'm concerned, he got what he deserved. And so will McDonald.

Whose talking about conviction? I haven't seen him CHARGED yet. You are correct...not being convicted doesn't mean innocent in the same way simply being arrested doesn't mean guilty.

Who's talking about Goodell and suspensions, etc? Why are you changing the conversation. I've never said a word about suspensions or league punishment.

All I'm sayin' is lets see some facts before we convict in the court of public opinion.

You keep talking about the "evidence" and THERE IS NONE. Police may have some and when they release that we can comment on it, but stop acting as if all the evidence is out there and its completely clear exactly what happened that night. Its disingenuous. Its false.

Why am I defending him? I'm not really. To be completely honest I'm defending a persons right to not be publicly flogged for doing something he MAY not have done. Why? Because as I stated in another thread...I've been through this rodeo before with a family member. I've seen the way the justice system works and how incredibly easy it is to get arrested AND charged with something you didn't do.

That isn't a criticism of the system BTW. It HAS to work that way because the law is written to protect the victim not only from their attacker but from themselves. Victims of DV almost ALWAYS backtrack for fear of getting beat again, for fear of not being able to get by (especially it the attacker is the bread winner), for the kids, or for any number of other reasons. The law is constructed to prosecute even when the attacker says very little. If there is a call to the police. There will be an arrest. Period. End of story.

I saw this happen first hand. I saw the wife try to tell them it didn't happen and I saw the DA pursue it for SIX MONTHS trying to get him to plea guilty before it finally went away. This was a woman who had no idea what she was starting and a guy who had never laid a hand on her in her in his entire life. She had bruises too...from hitting HIM.

None of this is to say that this is what happened to McDonald. He could very well be guilty.

I've just seen how this played out. I've seen the damage it did to the family. I saw the way he was treated by police, the DA, and the judge when they were trying to get him to plead guilty because they essentially had nothing on him. I know how this works and I know how easily someone can be arrested when a woman has bruising and how everyone jumps to a false conclusion.

All I'm sayin is let this play out and see what we see when more facts come out. That's all. I'm not trying to sell you on innocence. I'm saying slow down.

 

[Marvin49]

In most jobs especially jobs that required a good public image (think public school teacher as a good example), even an arrest and charges filed for Domestic Abuse would be enough to either get you fired or at the very least put on administrative leave (sometimes paid and sometimes not).

I have to wonder if McDonald was "Just A Guy" and #52 on the 53 man roster if the Niners would be so concerned about "due process". Same applies to the Panthers except more so (since in their case there's been a conviction that's being appealed).

I think that McDonald (or anyone charged in such a way) should probably sit (with pay) until the facts are in...but that would probably require a change in the CBA and the headaches that would cause.

I wouldn't have had a problem with the 49ers sitting him.

I just don't think they were somehow duty bound to do so and not doing so reflects something else.

I like Ray McDonald as a player, but it's not like he's one of the best players on the team or someone they just couldn't live without. In fact, they have a number of young promising players at that position, so I don't buy that as the reason he played.

Marvin.... here in lies I think the point.

The 9ers dont have to do anything. they can fall back on the legal system. and are correct in protecting their players in doing so.

In doing so they show the same complete lack of understanding when it comes to domestic violence that the league has. They are no more guilty that any other team in the NFL that has missed opportunities to set an example, precedent, etc.

You understand that though, I hope? you understand that the legal systems decisions do not necessarily reflect innocence and guilt. You understand, now, that the league has been culpable in playing the gray line and is now, finally, suffering from it from a public perspective standpoint.

And hopefully you know (or have learned) enough about domestic violence to know that there is a good chance your player did something awful to his wife/gf and that the incident will never be fully understood or dealt with because crimes of these nature rarely are for many reasons.

Think of what one game would have done for that organization, especially now. Did they have to? no, not according to rule or law? the 9ers had a chance. and missed it. Its your team. if youre comfortable with it, off you go then. your defending the 9ers right to do nothing, which to me is fine, but naive.

Should they have.... I guess thats the question that all NFL teams will have to start answering really soon.

That is such BS.

What are you going to site here....Aldon? McDonald? Really?

Yup...Aldon played the week of the arrest....and then spent 5 weeks away form the team in rehab. Please give me another example of a player leaving the team in the middle of the season to go to rehab.

McDonald? I don't know how many times I can say this. HE HASN'T EVEN BEEN CHARGED. This happened less than 2 weeks ago. Where is the outrage about Hardy who has been through his trial and is now appealing.

Rice and Hardy at least got through the legal system.

We haven't even seen the freakin' police report on McDonald yet everyone has convicted him.

Sad.

 

[Polaris]

In most jobs especially jobs that required a good public image (think public school teacher as a good example), even an arrest and charges filed for Domestic Abuse would be enough to either get you fired or at the very least put on administrative leave (sometimes paid and sometimes not).

I have to wonder if McDonald was "Just A Guy" and #52 on the 53 man roster if the Niners would be so concerned about "due process". Same applies to the Panthers except more so (since in their case there's been a conviction that's being appealed).

I think that McDonald (or anyone charged in such a way) should probably sit (with pay) until the facts are in...but that would probably require a change in the CBA and the headaches that would cause.

I wouldn't have had a problem with the 49ers sitting him.

I just don't think they were somehow duty bound to do so and not doing so reflects something else.

I like Ray McDonald as a player, but it's not like he's one of the best players on the team or someone they just couldn't live without. In fact, they have a number of young promising players at that position, so I don't buy that as the reason he played.

Marvin.... here in lies I think the point.

The 9ers dont have to do anything. they can fall back on the legal system. and are correct in protecting their players in doing so.

In doing so they show the same complete lack of understanding when it comes to domestic violence that the league has. They are no more guilty that any other team in the NFL that has missed opportunities to set an example, precedent, etc.

You understand that though, I hope? you understand that the legal systems decisions do not necessarily reflect innocence and guilt. You understand, now, that the league has been culpable in playing the gray line and is now, finally, suffering from it from a public perspective standpoint.

And hopefully you know (or have learned) enough about domestic violence to know that there is a good chance your player did something awful to his wife/gf and that the incident will never be fully understood or dealt with because crimes of these nature rarely are for many reasons.

Think of what one game would have done for that organization, especially now. Did they have to? no, not according to rule or law? the 9ers had a chance. and missed it. Its your team. if youre comfortable with it, off you go then. your defending the 9ers right to do nothing, which to me is fine, but naive.

Should they have.... I guess thats the question that all NFL teams will have to start answering really soon.

That is such BS.

What are you going to site here....Aldon? McDonald? Really?

Yup...Aldon played the week of the arrest....and then spent 5 weeks away form the team in rehab. Please give me another example of a player leaving the team in the middle of the season to go to rehab.

McDonald? I don't know how many times I can say this. HE HASN'T EVEN BEEN CHARGED. This happened less than 2 weeks ago. Where is the outrage about Hardy who has been through his trial and is now appealing.

Rice and Hardy at least got through the legal system.

We haven't even seen the freakin' police report on McDonald yet everyone has convicted him.

Sad.

If a school teacher were arrested on suspicion of 'deviant acts with a minor', do you think the teacher is working the next day, formal charges or no formal charges? I think not.

The same applies here. I didn't say that. Jim Harbaugh did by saying that "hitting a woman" was the one thing that was a drop-dead, unforgivable sin in his eyes.

I apologize to the rest of the board for such a stark point of comparison, but I am not sure there's any other way to get this point across. It isn't about the legal system at this point. [Note that I would suspend him with pay.]

 

[bigtrain21]

Marvin,

I don't think most are saying he is for sure guilty. I specifically didn't like your point that the 49ers must PERCIEVE that he is innocent or he wouldn't be playing and offered up an example of percieved guilt or percieved innocent not mattering to them.

 

[Popeyejones]

I apologize to the rest of the board for such a stark point of comparison, but I am not sure there's any other way to get this point across.

I wouldn't apologize for it being a stark comparison, I'd apologize for it being a manipulative and needlessly loaded comparison.

The corollary to a teacher being suspended for being under investigation for child molestation would be a worker at a battered women's shelter being suspended while under investigation for domestic violence.

In some jobs you'd be put on paid leave for being under investigation for child molestation, and in others you wouldn't, just as it is with DV. (not saying it's the same for both of these things of course. In terms of moral opprobrium, child molestation/first degree murder/rape seem to be reserved as a class for themselves with things like DV, pimping, 2nd degree murder, etc. one rung below, although I personally wouldn't be opposed to DV jumping up a category).

 

[loafoftatupu]

If a school teacher were arrested on suspicion of 'deviant acts with a minor', do you think the teacher is working the next day, formal charges or no formal charges? I think not.

Of course not, but in that case you are talking about the safety of children. I don't think the workplace for McDonald is at any risk if he plays.

Who knows what the Niners know or don't know. Those around RM said they didn't see anything, that doesn't mean nothing happened because I feel it is obvious that something did, but because no one said they saw McDonald do anything the Niners don't have enough information to suspend.

It could end up looking bad, but I doubt that "due process" will end up with RM being convicted of DV. I doubt that the court will even pursue it very far. No way baby momma harshes out baby daddy when Daddy is bringing home the premium bacon. Just look at Rice...

 

[Popeyejones]

I don't think the workplace for McDonald is at any risk if he plays.

Yessir. In addition to introducing child molestation, this is why it's a needlessly loaded comparison. If RayMac worked in a battered women's shelter it would be a reasonable comparison, but by definition the vulnerable population he's accused of attacking isn't at his workplace. [insert Ahmad Brooks bottle joke ).

 

[Marvin49]

I wouldn't have had a problem with the 49ers sitting him.

I just don't think they were somehow duty bound to do so and not doing so reflects something else.

I like Ray McDonald as a player, but it's not like he's one of the best players on the team or someone they just couldn't live without. In fact, they have a number of young promising players at that position, so I don't buy that as the reason he played.

Marvin.... here in lies I think the point.

The 9ers dont have to do anything. they can fall back on the legal system. and are correct in protecting their players in doing so.

In doing so they show the same complete lack of understanding when it comes to domestic violence that the league has. They are no more guilty that any other team in the NFL that has missed opportunities to set an example, precedent, etc.

You understand that though, I hope? you understand that the legal systems decisions do not necessarily reflect innocence and guilt. You understand, now, that the league has been culpable in playing the gray line and is now, finally, suffering from it from a public perspective standpoint.

And hopefully you know (or have learned) enough about domestic violence to know that there is a good chance your player did something awful to his wife/gf and that the incident will never be fully understood or dealt with because crimes of these nature rarely are for many reasons.

Think of what one game would have done for that organization, especially now. Did they have to? no, not according to rule or law? the 9ers had a chance. and missed it. Its your team. if youre comfortable with it, off you go then. your defending the 9ers right to do nothing, which to me is fine, but naive.

Should they have.... I guess thats the question that all NFL teams will have to start answering really soon.

That is such BS.

What are you going to site here....Aldon? McDonald? Really?

Yup...Aldon played the week of the arrest....and then spent 5 weeks away form the team in rehab. Please give me another example of a player leaving the team in the middle of the season to go to rehab.

McDonald? I don't know how many times I can say this. HE HASN'T EVEN BEEN CHARGED. This happened less than 2 weeks ago. Where is the outrage about Hardy who has been through his trial and is now appealing.

Rice and Hardy at least got through the legal system.

We haven't even seen the freakin' police report on McDonald yet everyone has convicted him.

Sad.

If a school teacher were arrested on suspicion of 'deviant acts with a minor', do you think the teacher is working the next day, formal charges or no formal charges? I think not.

The same applies here. I didn't say that. Jim Harbaugh did by saying that "hitting a woman" was the one thing that was a drop-dead, unforgivable sin in his eyes.

I apologize to the rest of the board for such a stark point of comparison, but I am not sure there's any other way to get this point across. It isn't about the legal system at this point. [Note that I would suspend him with pay.]

WOW.

Over the top, don't you think?

If his fiance lines up at Right Tackle for the Bears, then I'll give some credence to your ludicrous comparison.

 

[Marvin49]

Marvin,

I don't think most are saying he is for sure guilty. I specifically didn't like your point that the 49ers must PERCIEVE that he is innocent or he wouldn't be playing and offered up an example of percieved guilt or percieved innocent not mattering to them.

That's my opinion and not in any way to be interpreted as fact. That's what makes sense to me.

I'm only speaking in terms of what I THINK, not what I KNOW.

 

[bigtrain21]

Marvin,

I don't think most are saying he is for sure guilty. I specifically didn't like your point that the 49ers must PERCIEVE that he is innocent or he wouldn't be playing and offered up an example of percieved guilt or percieved innocent not mattering to them.

That's my opinion and not in any way to be interpreted as fact. That's what makes sense to me.

I'm only speaking in terms of what I THINK, not what I KNOW.

And I gave you a reason why you shouldn't think that.