Kam

[original poster]

There's basically 4 options with Kam - <snip>

What about Option 5 - he returns and plays at a high level because injuries can heal. There seems to be about 0% of you entertaining this option in your heads. Mostly just cynicism about how he can cheat his way into the most $$ for nothing versus how the Seahawks can screw him over for the most $$. :roll:

You only have to listen to Pete's tone of voice in his press conference to know that option 5 isn't happening...

 

[MontanaHawk05]

1. Kam is still an elite player when healthy
2. Kam's presence in terms of leadership and running the defense is severely underrated here
3. McDougald is adequate but not even close to being at Kam's level, much less better than Kam
4. Without Kam, the LOB loses its teeth and intimidation is no longer a factor
5. I'm convinced that Kam's holdout, subsequent "undeserved" extension, and injury troubles have caused fans to sour on him in general, leading to armchair performance assessments that are way off base and lacking any real rigor or objectivity. That is a shame because Kam is a unique player in the history of the NFL and quite possibly the best SS to have ever played the game. He will be in the HOF someday.

McDougald is without a doubt better than Kam in coverage. And if Kam retires tomorrow, he’d be waiting a long while to make the Hall. And he is not better than Troy Polamalu. Take off your rosy Seahawks glasses for a second.

Kam has lost a step and can't get to the play in time to BE an enforcer.

I'd rather have pass breakups and no-throws than an ESPN highlight tackle 3 times a year.

You have a seriously thin impression of what Kam does for this defense, and still is doing.

 

[original poster]

1. Kam is still an elite player when healthy
2. Kam's presence in terms of leadership and running the defense is severely underrated here
3. McDougald is adequate but not even close to being at Kam's level, much less better than Kam
4. Without Kam, the LOB loses its teeth and intimidation is no longer a factor
5. I'm convinced that Kam's holdout, subsequent "undeserved" extension, and injury troubles have caused fans to sour on him in general, leading to armchair performance assessments that are way off base and lacking any real rigor or objectivity. That is a shame because Kam is a unique player in the history of the NFL and quite possibly the best SS to have ever played the game. He will be in the HOF someday.

McDougald is without a doubt better than Kam in coverage. And if Kam retires tomorrow, he’d be waiting a long while to make the Hall. And he is not better than Troy Polamalu. Take off your rosy Seahawks glasses for a second.

Kam has lost a step and can't get to the play in time to BE an enforcer.

I'd rather have pass breakups and no-throws than an ESPN highlight tackle 3 times a year.

You have a seriously thin impression of what Kam does for this defense, and still is doing.

I agree.

He brings intelligence to the whole defense, let alone the tone setting.

However, he can't do that when he's injured.

 

[onanygivensunday]

There's basically 4 options with Kam -

Option 1 - He retires, in this situation his dead money would only be $7.5M. You can take all of that hit in 2018 if you want

OR

Option 2 - do a post June 1st cut and make the dead money in 2018 $2.5M with cap savings of $7.3M for 2018 but with $5M in dead money in 2019 ($2.5M dead money in 2018 and £5M dead money in 2019 totalling $7.5M) That's option 2.

On option 1, I don't believe that the team has a choice of when to take the cap hit when a player retires... I believe that it must take all of the $7.5M dead money cap hit in 2018. Anybody here know for certain?

On option 2 (post-June 1st cut), the team has the option of taking all of his remaining $7.5M prorated bonus as a dead money cap hit in 2018, or they have the option of spreading it out over 2018 and 2019, resulting in a $3.75M dead money hit each year.

Overthecap.com leads you to believe that it could be spread over the remaining three years of his contract but I don't believe that is an option.

So if I am correct and the team decides to spread it over 2018 and 2019, the 2018 cap savings would be $6.05M ($9.8M - 3.75M = $6.05M). And, of course, the $3.75M is dead money against the 2018 cap.

And in 2019, the cap savings would be $9.35M ($13M - 3.75M = $9.25M). And the 2019 dead money hit is $3.75M again.

And the cap savings is 2020 would be his 2020 salary plus his roster bonus... or $12M total ($10.5M + 1.5M = $12M). No dead money hit in 2020.

The short-coming with post-June 1st cuts is the team can't utilize the cap savings during the FA frenzy that happens in mid-March. The cap space saved is not available to be spent until June 1st.

 

[original poster]

Think it’s actually 12th May this year, however the saying is more known as June 1st. Your point still stands about FA, though.

 

[onanygivensunday]

Think it’s actually 12th May this year, however the saying is more known as June 1st. Your point still stands about FA, though.

The start of FA is mid-March...

March 12-14 Clubs are permitted to contact, and enter into contract negotiations with, the certified agents of players who will become Unrestricted Free Agents upon the expiration of their 2017 player contracts at 4:00 p.m., New York time, on March 14. However, a contract cannot be executed with a new club until 4:00 p.m., New York time, on March 14.

Source... https://operations.nfl.com/football-ops ... nfl-dates/

 

[Mojambo]

He leaves money on the table if he retires.

Financially, he has all the motivation in the world to "attempt to come back from injury" even if he intends to never play another down.

Not much. I believe most of his contract is guaranteed for injury.

 

[original poster]

Think it’s actually 12th May this year, however the saying is more known as June 1st. Your point still stands about FA, though.

The start of FA is mid-March...

March 12-14 Clubs are permitted to contact, and enter into contract negotiations with, the certified agents of players who will become Unrestricted Free Agents upon the expiration of their 2017 player contracts at 4:00 p.m., New York time, on March 14. However, a contract cannot be executed with a new club until 4:00 p.m., New York time, on March 14.

Source... https://operations.nfl.com/football-ops ... nfl-dates/

I wasn’t referring to FA, I was referring to the date for ‘post June 1st cuts’, it’s not actually June 1st.

 

[original poster]

He leaves money on the table if he retires.

Financially, he has all the motivation in the world to "attempt to come back from injury" even if he intends to never play another down.

Not much. I believe most of his contract is guaranteed for injury.

$12M :2thumbs:

 

[original poster]

The more I look at the contract the more I wonder what the hell the FO were doing.

It seems very, very team unfriendly, like every element sways towards the player and not the team.

 

[Steve2222]

I'm sure there's lots of people in the NFL that are better than Kam in coverage. But that's not what he gets paid to do. He's paid to play "in the box" and help stop the run. Anyone that knows Pete's defense knows that.

McDougald is a good player, but there's a reason why he was available from TB. He's not a game changer.

I don't think it's "rosy" to see that McD doesn't bring the same fire, the same intensity as Kam. No one is looking to McDougald to get the secondary on the same page. No one is scared to go over the middle against McD.

And if Kam doesn't come back, McDougald is not going to be the guy that you just plug in and everything is fine.

Kam hasn’t been a game changer for the past two years. When’s this LOB nostalgia going to wear off? Sure he can support in the run but he is an absolute liability in coverage.

And I don’t think anybody is saying McDougald is a game changer. He’s a very good versatile safety however and if he hits the open market, he’ll be coveted by many teams. He pairs nicely with ET. I’d rather stick with him and address the SAM LB spot then go with high priced, broken Kam because I want to live in the past.

 

[Steve2222]

McDougald is without a doubt better than Kam in coverage. And if Kam retires tomorrow, he’d be waiting a long while to make the Hall. And he is not better than Troy Polamalu. Take off your rosy Seahawks glasses for a second.

Kam has lost a step and can't get to the play in time to BE an enforcer.

I'd rather have pass breakups and no-throws than an ESPN highlight tackle 3 times a year.

You have a seriously thin impression of what Kam does for this defense, and still is doing.

I agree.

He brings intelligence to the whole defense, let alone the tone setting.

However, he can't do that when he's injured.

Intelligence to the defense? You don’t think ET and Wagner aren’t out their diagnosing what the offense is doing for their teammates? It’s not a coincidence that Bobby is always at the right place, at the right time. And ET is definitely a tone setter. Our defense lacked this year not because of “leadership” or intelligence. It struggled because we gave QBs clean pockets to throw.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Not sure what games you are watching.

When Kam was holding out, ET was missing stuff all over the place.

Even ET is quoted as saying that Kam makes calls that ET depends on.

ET is leagues better with Kam out there than without him.

 

[original poster]

Kam has lost a step and can't get to the play in time to BE an enforcer.

I'd rather have pass breakups and no-throws than an ESPN highlight tackle 3 times a year.

You have a seriously thin impression of what Kam does for this defense, and still is doing.

I agree.

He brings intelligence to the whole defense, let alone the tone setting.

However, he can't do that when he's injured.

Intelligence to the defense? You don’t think ET and Wagner aren’t out their diagnosing what the offense is doing for their teammates? It’s not a coincidence that Bobby is always at the right place, at the right time. And ET is definitely a tone setter. Our defense lacked this year not because of “leadership” or intelligence. It struggled because we gave QBs clean pockets to throw.

I didn’t say they weren’t?

Intelligence can be provided by more than one player.

I don’t disagree with your last point, though.

 

[tmobilchawker79]

No one is ripping on McDougald here...but Steve, you make it sound like we haven't had a strong safety for - what did you say, "2 years"? I take exception to that.

Kam's been playing great the last couple years. He's an all pro that just happened to get a season ending neck injury this year. He had his ankles cleaned up last offseason and came out on fire this year.

McD's a nice fill in, yeah, he can cover...great. But the energy, passion, etc. that was all Kam. He was the tone setter on the field. He put pulling guards on their backside. You ever see McDougald do that? He was the motivational guy in the locker room as well. And if McDougald wants to test free agency and gets a huge contract, it's not an indictment on the Kam or the Hawks.

 

[Steve2222]

No one is ripping on McDougald here...but Steve, you make it sound like we haven't had a strong safety for - what did you say, "2 years"? I take exception to that.

Kam's been playing great the last couple years. He's an all pro that just happened to get a season ending neck injury this year. He had his ankles cleaned up last offseason and came out on fire this year.

McD's a nice fill in, yeah, he can cover...great. But the energy, passion, etc. that was all Kam. He was the tone setter on the field. He put pulling guards on their backside. You ever see McDougald do that? He was the motivational guy in the locker room as well. And if McDougald wants to test free agency and gets a huge contract, it's not an indictment on the Kam or the Hawks.

Kam hasn’t been All Pro since 2014, where he was second team. Hasn’t made a Pro bowl since 2015. I’m grateful for everything Kams done for this team. He’s definitely going to have his number in rafters one day. However, he is a shell of his former self, his body is breaking down, and is a liability in coverage. I would much rather Kam retire so we can get out of his massive contract and put McDougald there. Then, finally address the sam lb that has been a glaring hole since Irvin left.

Of course ET played better with Kam in 2013-2015. We could actually rush the passer those years. That’s the difference you’re seeing. I don’t know what it is with us Seattle sports fans, but we just can’t let our beloved players go.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

No one is ripping on McDougald here...but Steve, you make it sound like we haven't had a strong safety for - what did you say, "2 years"? I take exception to that.

Kam's been playing great the last couple years. He's an all pro that just happened to get a season ending neck injury this year. He had his ankles cleaned up last offseason and came out on fire this year.

McD's a nice fill in, yeah, he can cover...great. But the energy, passion, etc. that was all Kam. He was the tone setter on the field. He put pulling guards on their backside. You ever see McDougald do that? He was the motivational guy in the locker room as well. And if McDougald wants to test free agency and gets a huge contract, it's not an indictment on the Kam or the Hawks.

Kam hasn’t been All Pro since 2014, where he was second team. Hasn’t made a Pro bowl since 2015. I’m grateful for everything Kams done for this team. He’s definitely going to have his number in rafters one day. However, he is a shell of his former self, his body is breaking down, and is a liability in coverage. I would much rather Kam retire so we can get out of his massive contract and put McDougald there. Then, finally address the sam lb that has been a glaring hole since Irvin left.

Of course ET played better with Kam in 2013-2015. We could actually rush the passer those years. That’s the difference you’re seeing. I don’t know what it is with us Seattle sports fans, but we just can’t let our beloved players go.

Not everyone can be Tez or Jones.

 

[seahawks08]

Kam was unique, I don't think there is a hard hitting guy like him in the league. He has sucked the soul out of many opponents. I don't know if we can replace him with another player unless there is one who has the physical and mental capabilities to play with the identity. We may not get him 100% but near term is is more value proposition than liability unless he is physically not possible to play and need to retire for his own health.

 

[BigBill1945]

It will be up to the doctors. As much as I would love him back I believe based on the information that is out so far it is a big risk. Nobody has said what his surgery is. It could be a decompression laminectomy or a fusion. Disc at his age are not real common except in the presence of significant trauma. He apparently had bilateral symptoms into the arms. If he had symptoms that covered most of the surface of the arm it suggests muliitple level involvement or something that happened to the spinal cord itself. The nerves come out of the neck more horizontal than in the lumbar spine. In the lumbar spine the nerves are more vertical so a disc can catch more than one nerve. A single disc might hit one nerve coming out of the neck but not more than one unless of course there is multiple discs involved. By virtue of the position of the disc it has to climb over a joint that rests on the body of the vertebrae called the uncovertebral joint before it can reach the nerve. It takes a lot of trauma for this to occur. It is shaped like a "U" and the disc sits inside it. His history is one of trauma so more than likely it is not a degenerative joint issue which comes on with age. If the cord in contused or swollen in the cervical spine it can affect multiple levels. All of the nerves come into the extremities from the cord. I would compare of like a large power box on an electric line splitting up and going into individual houses.

The bottom line at this point is that different people heal differently. Having not examined either Kam or Cliff this is only speculation. In my experience, there is always a risk with these types of injuries to come back to full contact. A decision will have to be made between his doctors and him weighing all of the risks to return to full play. It would be an absolute tragedy to see either of these young guys a catastrophic injury subsequent to returning to play. They are young, have families and have their whole life ahead of them. I gather you can see where I stand but I am not their doctor.

 

[hawkfan68]

If Kam isn't back, I wonder if they will move McEvoy to safety. He was a safety in college, I believe. Probably wouldn't hurt to try him out there. He definitely has the size to be a "box" type strong safety.