LeBron or Jordan?

[Uncle Si]

You're only strengthening the argument 2_0_6...

Maybe in your mind. :irishdrinkers:

Lebron has been dominating and taking over games for years. Numbers don't lie.

3 years... he has been taking over and dominating games on his for 3 years.

numbers dont lie... but they rarely tell the entire story

 

[2_0_6]

So his 70+ triple doubles and 31k+ points all in 3 years?

Damn he's better than I thought.

 

[Uncle Si]

So his 70+ triple doubles and 31k+ points all in 3 years?

Damn he's better than I thought.

doubt he could be better than you think...

 

[2_0_6]

So his 70+ triple doubles and 31k+ points all in 3 years?

Damn he's better than I thought.

doubt he could be better than you think...

I'm not a Lebron fan, not a Cavs fan, and when the Sonics left I became very bitter towards the NBA as a whole, but I respect his game. My family had season tickets from 86 all the way up through the last year in Seattle, and I was able to see Jordan many of times, and even got to witness him ripping my heart out in 1996.


There will always be the Lebron haters, but in the end when his career is over the numbers wont lie.

 

[Uncle Si]

You continue to site the numbers. Noone has disputed them. The debate, again, is how the era's the two players have helped them be the players they were, and how either would do if playing in the other's era. Lebron is playing a free flowing, offense driven league. Jordan did not.

It's also ridiculously disingenuous to suggest you're not a fan of LeBron, site a "stat" regarding first round eliminations and then completely ignore championships (and finals losses).

I love how Lebron has challenged the narrative of his earlier career.

 

[2_0_6]

I'm far from a "fan boy" of Lebron as you say, but if it makes you feel better to assume that keep beating that drum.

Some people just are blind to facts apparently. Carry on. :2thumbs:

 

[Uncle Si]

I'm far from a "fan boy" of Lebron as you say, but if it makes you feel better to assume that keep beating that drum.

Some people just are blind to facts apparently. Carry on. :2thumbs:

and some people are blinded by them... even going as far as leaving out facts that don't support their narrative.

 

[JGfromtheNW]

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say LeBron has only been dominating the league the last three years. Have you only been paying attention the last three years, Si? I'm not trying to be condescending, but it seems you haven't been paying attention.

Until Steph Curry blew up a few years ago, I think anybody who follows the league would say LeBron has been the most dominating player in the league since like his third season... and I don't even think it's close.

 

[Uncle Si]

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say LeBron has only been dominating the league the last three years. Have you only been paying attention the last three years, Si? I'm not trying to be condescending, but it seems you haven't been paying attention.

Until Steph Curry blew up a few years ago, I think anybody who follows the league would say LeBron has been the most dominating player in the league since like his third season... and I don't even think it's close.

Dominating in way that he isnt just racking up stats, but putting his team on his back. is that not the common narrative against him?

 

[2_0_6]

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say LeBron has only been dominating the league the last three years. Have you only been paying attention the last three years, Si? I'm not trying to be condescending, but it seems you haven't been paying attention.

Until Steph Curry blew up a few years ago, I think anybody who follows the league would say LeBron has been the most dominating player in the league since like his third season... and I don't even think it's close.

Dominating in way that he isnt just racking up stats, but putting his team on his back. is that not the common narrative against him?

So you are saying that LeBron hasn't carried his team almost every year since he's been in the league? Outside of the couple years in Miami where both Wade and Bosh were healthy and one year Kyrie when decided to show up, his surrounding cast has been comical for the most part.

 

[2_0_6]

I'm far from a "fan boy" of Lebron as you say, but if it makes you feel better to assume that keep beating that drum.

Some people just are blind to facts apparently. Carry on. :2thumbs:

and some people are blinded by them... even going as far as leaving out facts that don't support their narrative.

My facts prove my narrative, your argument does not.

:irishdrinkers:

 

[JGfromtheNW]

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say LeBron has only been dominating the league the last three years. Have you only been paying attention the last three years, Si? I'm not trying to be condescending, but it seems you haven't been paying attention.

Until Steph Curry blew up a few years ago, I think anybody who follows the league would say LeBron has been the most dominating player in the league since like his third season... and I don't even think it's close.

Dominating in way that he isnt just racking up stats, but putting his team on his back. is that not the common narrative against him?

I guess I'm confused as to what your definition of dominating is now. It seems like it's not related to all-time stats, it's not related to his level of play compared to his peers of the same era, it's not how he compares to MJ, but it's how true common narratives like "he does/doesn't put his team on his back" are?

 

[Uncle Si]

Yeah, i get its ambiguous.

Let's look at this way:

Lebron is 1-2 over the last 3 finals. Not great. He will likely make his way to a 4th Finals and lose badly again.

Yet... if he had retired before his first run in with the Warriors his career was destined to be identified by the losses in Finals. His wins the last decade were only after he teamed up with the Heat and came out of the historically poor Eastern conference. His individual stats covered up a lack of true greatness. He dominated his league statistically (so did Jordan), but never truly took over the league.

What he's done at Cleveland the last 3-4 years, however, is remarkable. Yes, it's not quantifiable by stats. But he has, without question, put that team on his back. This is what always came up as the biggest difference between he and Jordan. And now, even when he loses for the 3rd time in 4 years in the Finals... his greatness will only grow.

To me, that's always been the difference. Jordan worked hard for his stats. Lebron seemed to coast to his. The lack of big game successes mirrored that. Even in losing, Lebron has overcome that.

 

[ZorntoLargent]

JORDAN > LeBald

 

[Uncle Si]

I'm far from a "fan boy" of Lebron as you say, but if it makes you feel better to assume that keep beating that drum.

Some people just are blind to facts apparently. Carry on. :2thumbs:

and some people are blinded by them... even going as far as leaving out facts that don't support their narrative.

My facts prove my narrative, your argument does not.

:irishdrinkers:

This is actually far too simplistic for an explanation... Your facts proving your narrative is exactly what I just said. But your facts leave out several others.. which clearly indicates you do not understand how facts or analysis work, which is the premise of an argument. I mean you're just making my argument for me. so thanks (irish guys toasting?)

"Lebron has NEVER lost in a opening round!!!!!! LERON Wins!!!!!"

But Jordan has never lost in a final. Jordan has more championships... etc. etc.

I think you'd find that trying to be sardonic here is just distracting from the points being made. But go on anyways

 

[2_0_6]

I'm far from a "fan boy" of Lebron as you say, but if it makes you feel better to assume that keep beating that drum.

Some people just are blind to facts apparently. Carry on. :2thumbs:

and some people are blinded by them... even going as far as leaving out facts that don't support their narrative.

My facts prove my narrative, your argument does not.

:irishdrinkers:

This is actually far too simplistic for an explanation... Your facts proving your narrative is exactly what I just said. But your facts leave out several others.. which clearly indicates you do not understand how facts or analysis work, which is the premise of an argument. I mean you're just making my argument for me. so thanks (irish guys toasting?)

"Lebron has NEVER lost in a opening round!!!!!! LERON Wins!!!!!"

But Jordan has never lost in a final. Jordan has more championships... etc. etc.

I understand just what you typed just fine, and I also understand how facts and analysis work as well since I deal with them daily. I'm glad you can take a few posts on a forum and assume that of someone.

Thanks for attempting to make your comments prove your point when all it did was muddy up your explanation and change your points along the way.

Not related to stats, wait no, not related to his peers, wait no I know, he doesn't carry the team on his back.

You sir, have a great weekend. Make sure to watch the games this weekend. We are just going to have to agree to disagree.

:irishdrinkers:

 

[SanDiego49er]

Yeah, i get its ambiguous.

Let's look at this way:

Lebron is 1-2 over the last 3 finals. Not great. He will likely make his way to a 4th Finals and lose badly again.

Yet... if he had retired before his first run in with the Warriors his career was destined to be identified by the losses in Finals. His wins the last decade were only after he teamed up with the Heat and came out of the historically poor Eastern conference. His individual stats covered up a lack of true greatness. He dominated his league statistically (so did Jordan), but never truly took over the league.

What he's done at Cleveland the last 3-4 years, however, is remarkable. Yes, it's not quantifiable by stats. But he has, without question, put that team on his back. This is what always came up as the biggest difference between he and Jordan. And now, even when he loses for the 3rd time in 4 years in the Finals... his greatness will only grow.

To me, that's always been the difference. Jordan worked hard for his stats. Lebron seemed to coast to his. The lack of big game successes mirrored that. Even in losing, Lebron has overcome that.

How is that even his fault? Do you even look at the facts on the ground at all? Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love were both hurt in 1 finals. He entered into that Finals with 1 out of the Big 3. How do you want him to win with that? How is it his fault? Explain that.

The other year Kevin Durant joins a 73 win team who already won the Championship. They have an unprecedented and unheard of Big 4. They have the starting team of the Olympic roster. How is that Lebron's fault? Explain it? What do you want him to do to beat that? They beat everybody else in the NBA by a wide margin too. It's not really surprising looking at their roster. What did you think would happen?

Yes they will lose this year. Everybody will. How are you going to beat a Big 4? We have never seen anything like that in NBA history. It's an overly stacked team and the NBA needs to do something about it. It's ruining the game.

 

[NoChops]

Forget stats, Jordan crushed more Hall of Fame players dreams, and its not even close.

 

[SanDiego49er]

Forget stats, Jordan crushed more Hall of Fame players dreams, and its not even close.

Jordan was super lucky to play lots of very flawed teams in the Finals. Never once did he play an actual dynasty in the Finals. He NEVER, NEVER faced a Big 4 in the Finals. Nothing even close to that.

 

[NoChops]

"very flawed" teams don't make the finals.

Every team Jordan beat had a Hall of Famer on it. Half the time they had two.

I don't know what a "big 4" is, but I'll give you a big six: Payton, Hawkins, McMillian, Schrempf, Kemp, Perkins.

And every year Jordan had to beat Hall of Famers like :Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, The Dream, Wilkins, Miller, Mullin, Thomas, Bird, McHale etc. just to get to the playoffs.

He dominated the some of the best players in history, his compition was greater. Lebron is great, Jordan is the GOAT.