LeBron or Jordan?

[SanDiego49er]

"very flawed" teams don't make the finals.

Every team Jordan beat had a Hall of Famer on it. Half the time they had two.

I don't know what a "big 4" is, but I'll give you a big six: Payton, Hawkins, McMillian, Schrempf, Kemp, Perkins.

And every year Jordan had to beat Hall of Famers like :Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, The Dream, Wilkins, Miller, Mullin, Thomas, Bird, McHale etc. just to get to the playoffs.

He dominated the some of the best players in history, his compition was greater. Lebron is great, Jordan is the GOAT.

Flawed teams make the Finals all the time coming out of the weaker Conference. The West was garbage when Jordan was playing. If you beat the Knicks, Pacers and Pistons you would win.

Your Big 6 is a joke. Kemp is the big guy there. Most of the rest are not a big anything. You are wildly exaggerating if you think all those guys were huge stars.

Jordan never played anything like the Golden State Warriors Big 4. If he did he would LOSE. Kevin Durant joined a 73 win team (the best record of ALL TIME). A team that had already won the Championship and been to several. No team is going to beat that period. Not even the Bulls in the prime if they played them.

Lebron got the Finals with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving both hurt and out. How is that Lebron's fault? Based on what? He stayed durable and healthy. It's not his fault his crew couldn't. So he goes into the Finals with 1 out of the Big 3. That NEVER happened to Jordan BTW. He never had 1 of the Big 3 in a Finals series. NEVER. How exactly do you want the guy to win with that?

He was beating Bird and Mchale in the 90's. They were OLD. Their prime was in the 80's. Now beating them in the 80's would have been impressive. But that's not what happened.

He was beating a YOUNG SHAQ for the most part. Before he was a more mature player and teamed up with Kobe when they started to win. Early in his career all he could do was dunk. Plus he would brick every free throw. He wasn't that great of a player. Just a big physical presence. He got better as he got more mature.

Jordan beat the Utah Jazz twice. That's a Big 1 1/2. Stockton and Malone. Stockton was 1/2 because he only gives you offense. He gave you NOTHING on defense. He was even a liability there. So a Big 3 from the Bulls beat them as you would expect them to do.

Jordan beat the 90's Lakers when they were old and slow. He never beat the 80's Lakers. Now that would be impressive. But it's not what happened. He beat a Big 1 in Barkley and a scrub supporting cast. As you would expect him to do. How would a Big 1 beat a Big 3?

Jordan never beat any power house teams that were a dynasty. He beat FLAWED teams coming out of the other side. Just like people say the East is weak now. The West was WEAK then. It goes in cycles. There was no dynasty coming out of that other side when he was winning. Now if he beat the 80's Lakers more than 1 time I would be really impressed. But that's not what happened.

Furthermore Jordan NEVER won anything until the added Pippen, Horace Grant and Rodman to the roster. When they had a Big 3 they won. When it was Jordan he lost for years. He used to complain he needed a better team around him. Also he had coach Phil Jackson. No small advantage. He had a lot around him. That's when he started to win.

 

[NoChops]

lol. The NBA leader in steals of ALL TIME only gets a half point cuz he is a liability and doesn't play defense?? You lost me there kid, have fun debating with the others who were only an itch in their daddy's pants in the 90's.

 

[Hawk-Lock]

They are both great, and it is almost impossible to compare them because they played in different eras. Jordan never had to face a team like GS. I don't care about what people say, but the Suns, Sonics, and Jazz of the 90's were not today's Warriors.

LeBron hasn't had the best teams, but he has also had some great teams. The difference is he played against some absolutely great teams. Personally, I think the Spurs and Warriors were much better than anything the West offered in the 90's. Keep in mind the Warriors have two top 5 players in the NBA, and probably 4 top 25 players.

It's really hard to make this debate right now while LeBron is still playing, but it will be much easier 10 years from now once LeBron is done playing.

 

[SanDiego49er]

lol. The NBA leader in steals of ALL TIME only gets a half point cuz he is a liability and doesn't play defense?? You lost me there kid, have fun debating with the others who were only an itch in their daddy's pants in the 90's.

He was not tall or big or strong. He did not have fast feet on defense. He was slow. He was not that great on defense. OK so you are saying he had quick hands. That is just one aspect. He didn't bring defense to the floor like Rodman or Pippen did. Nowhere even near. Those guys are tall and can rebound and block shots and alter shots of shorter players. Stockton absolutely could not do that. Plus Pippen and Rodman are like 3 times faster on defense. He didn't bring you a huge amount on defense other than quick hands. Which is something. But it's not everything by any means.

~ John Stockton 6'1" 175 lbs. What a giant powerhouse with super long arms.

~ Rodman 6'8". Could out rebound the building and had super fast feet on defense.

~ Pippen 6'7". As fast and athletic as anybody on the floor. Could be a dominant defender.

They would literally post up Jordan on Stockton. And yes he was a LIABILITY. 6'6" 216 lbs. is not going to be stopped by 6'1" 175 lbs. In fact it was a terrible mismatch. He would just go straight over the top and Stockton absolutely could NOT stop him.

 

[SanDiego49er]

They are both great, and it is almost impossible to compare them because they played in different eras. Jordan never had to face a team like GS. I don't care about what people say, but the Suns, Sonics, and Jazz of the 90's were not today's Warriors.

LeBron hasn't had the best teams, but he has also had some great teams. The difference is he played against some absolutely great teams. Personally, I think the Spurs and Warriors were much better than anything the West offered in the 90's. Keep in mind the Warriors have two top 5 players in the NBA, and probably 4 top 25 players.

It's really hard to make this debate right now while LeBron is still playing, but it will be much easier 10 years from now once LeBron is done playing.

Indeed Jordan NEVER played anything like the Golden State Warriors of today. Nothing even close. Yes the Spurs and Warriors were far better than anything the West offered in the 90's. That's what I'm saying. Lebron ran into some true dynasties. Jordan did not.

People will always talk about the # of Championships won. But it depends on who you have and who you play. Jordan played some flawed teams. Lebron has been unfortunate to run into some all time dynasties. Kevin Durant joined a 73 win team that already won the Championship and had been in several. That's the best record of all time. How do you really want the guy to win that? He didn't fail at all in losing to that. You would expect him to lose. And Jordan would lose to that too. He never played against a Big 4. NEVER.

 

[getnasty]

Damn LeBron is going crazy

 

[IndyHawk]

They are both great, and it is almost impossible to compare them because they played in different eras. Jordan never had to face a team like GS. I don't care about what people say, but the Suns, Sonics, and Jazz of the 90's were not today's Warriors.

LeBron hasn't had the best teams, but he has also had some great teams. The difference is he played against some absolutely great teams. Personally, I think the Spurs and Warriors were much better than anything the West offered in the 90's. Keep in mind the Warriors have two top 5 players in the NBA, and probably 4 top 25 players.

It's really hard to make this debate right now while LeBron is still playing, but it will be much easier 10 years from now once LeBron is done playing.

Indeed Jordan NEVER played anything like the Golden State Warriors of today. Nothing even close. Yes the Spurs and Warriors were far better than anything the West offered in the 90's. That's what I'm saying. Lebron ran into some true dynasties. Jordan did not.

People will always talk about the # of Championships won. But it depends on who you have and who you play. Jordan played some flawed teams. Lebron has been unfortunate to run into some all time dynasties. Kevin Durant joined a 73 win team that already won the Championship and had been in several. That's the best record of all time. How do you really want the guy to win that? He didn't fail at all in losing to that. You would expect him to lose. And Jordan would lose to that too. He never played against a Big 4. NEVER.

Like Hawk-Lock said it is hard to compare eras..
This big four stuff is crap to me because there is no defense today like back then so stats are inflated
which leads to higher scoring averages and thus so called superstars..One reason there was no big
fours back then is because almost everyone had to play Defense There was not this spread
wide with no center under the basket so good basketball players can average triple doubles you see
now.I would look and see the last time anyone averaged a triple double before Westbrook ect and
maybe you will understand why that is.I would say anyone that is good today is called a superstar
and that media hype people buy into is money for the NBA..In my opinion only Lebron and Durant are
the true superstars of today as they do play defense and can do all the other stuff.
I know people will scream about Curry but without that 3 point offense geared for him we wouldn't
hear about him and the guy is lazy on defense..
I see some people think the Bulls had it easy..Ha Ha You weren't around then if you say that.
We could take the Bulls of then and create a big four today..Raining 3's and still winning..
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Kukoc/Harper
Kerr
I will take those guys right there with Hodges and Armstrong on the bench.
That lineup will destroy anyone with today's streetball 3 point offense as they
all could shoot 3's(even Dennis when he felt like it)three of those guys were
named to all time defense teams..There is Kerr who runs that 3 point show
and he would be an All Star in todays game and yes it would be that easy.
All those guys besides Kerr were very fast with long arms and the key here
is they would all be playing great defense(maybe not Kerr) Kerr then was not
a starter but would be in todays game with no doubt.

 

[Elemas]

Grew up in the 80s...You can name countless NBA legends from that era.

Most even remember "role" players like Joe Dumars., Byron Scott, Dennis Johnson....

Greats like Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins...rarely talked about these days. From my memory, basketball in the 80s was as good as it can get.

With that said, it's been very hard for me to compare anyone or team ...Kobe, the Warriors, etc....to Jordan and the Bulls.

But...if I'm building a team and can chose anyone as the foundation...I'm taking LeBron. The man simply does it all. You can't really imagine topping Jordan's run of 6 championships. He did it in dramatic fashion with that layoff in between. But, if you switch their roles, I see LeBron winning just as many rings in Jordan's era while being on a team like the Bulls had.

Jordan on the Cavs? I'm thinking they make the conference finals and that's about it.

We will never know...hypothetical thoughts prove nothing when they can't be tested but, if Lebrons not the best ever...he's at least tied for that spot.

 

[Elemas]

"very flawed" teams don't make the finals.

Every team Jordan beat had a Hall of Famer on it. Half the time they had two.

I don't know what a "big 4" is, but I'll give you a big six: Payton, Hawkins, McMillian, Schrempf, Kemp, Perkins.

And every year Jordan had to beat Hall of Famers like :Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, The Dream, Wilkins, Miller, Mullin, Thomas, Bird, McHale etc. just to get to the playoffs.

He dominated the some of the best players in history, his compition was greater. Lebron is great, Jordan is the GOAT.

Flawed teams make the Finals all the time coming out of the weaker Conference. The West was garbage when Jordan was playing. If you beat the Knicks, Pacers and Pistons you would win.

Your Big 6 is a joke. Kemp is the big guy there. Most of the rest are not a big anything. You are wildly exaggerating if you think all those guys were huge stars.

Jordan never played anything like the Golden State Warriors Big 4. If he did he would LOSE. Kevin Durant joined a 73 win team (the best record of ALL TIME). A team that had already won the Championship and been to several. No team is going to beat that period. Not even the Bulls in the prime if they played them.

Lebron got the Finals with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving both hurt and out. How is that Lebron's fault? Based on what? He stayed durable and healthy. It's not his fault his crew couldn't. So he goes into the Finals with 1 out of the Big 3. That NEVER happened to Jordan BTW. He never had 1 of the Big 3 in a Finals series. NEVER. How exactly do you want the guy to win with that?

He was beating Bird and Mchale in the 90's. They were OLD. Their prime was in the 80's. Now beating them in the 80's would have been impressive. But that's not what happened.

He was beating a YOUNG SHAQ for the most part. Before he was a more mature player and teamed up with Kobe when they started to win. Early in his career all he could do was dunk. Plus he would brick every free throw. He wasn't that great of a player. Just a big physical presence. He got better as he got more mature.

Jordan beat the Utah Jazz twice. That's a Big 1 1/2. Stockton and Malone. Stockton was 1/2 because he only gives you offense. He gave you NOTHING on defense. He was even a liability there. So a Big 3 from the Bulls beat them as you would expect them to do.

Jordan beat the 90's Lakers when they were old and slow. He never beat the 80's Lakers. Now that would be impressive. But it's not what happened. He beat a Big 1 in Barkley and a scrub supporting cast. As you would expect him to do. How would a Big 1 beat a Big 3?

Jordan never beat any power house teams that were a dynasty. He beat FLAWED teams coming out of the other side. Just like people say the East is weak now. The West was WEAK then. It goes in cycles. There was no dynasty coming out of that other side when he was winning. Now if he beat the 80's Lakers more than 1 time I would be really impressed. But that's not what happened.

Furthermore Jordan NEVER won anything until the added Pippen, Horace Grant and Rodman to the roster. When they had a Big 3 they won. When it was Jordan he lost for years. He used to complain he needed a better team around him. Also he had coach Phil Jackson. No small advantage. He had a lot around him. That's when he started to win.

Agree that LeBron is the best ever or tied at a minimum but, the GSW aren't the barometer. They'd get dismantled by teams like Detroit Piston Bad Boys, Lakers, Celtics, Jazz, Knicks....I mean...breaking the regular season win record and then getting beat in dramatic fashion in the Finals?

You can't call out Jordan for complaining about not having a team to compete, in support of LeBron who jumped ship to Miami and the Warriors who added Durant.

Agree with your opinion...just not the methods you used to get there. The 80s and 90s were loaded with dangerous teams.

Off-topic:
I wouldn't take any other team over the Lakers or Celtics...early 80s. Take your pick. Either would wipe the floor with Golden State.

 

[getnasty]

This seals it for me, the supporting cast that LeBron has is pure trash and he still gets it done.

 

[chris98251]

This seals it for me, the supporting cast that LeBron has is pure trash and he still gets it done.

Just proves that defense sucks, guys like Payton, Pippen, Dennis Johnson could be assigned to someone and shut them down and make the rest beat you. It's just a highlight reel now in the NBA.

 

[IndyHawk]

This seals it for me, the supporting cast that LeBron has is pure trash and he still gets it done.

Just proves that defense sucks, guys like Payton, Pippen, Dennis Johnson could be assigned to someone and shut them down and make the rest beat you. It's just a highlight reel now in the NBA.

Rtght on Chris but these younger ones think the game has evolved into superior stuff that
the game we grew up on has nothing compared to today..BTW you forgot "The Worm" :lol:

 

[IndyHawk]

This seals it for me, the supporting cast that LeBron has is pure trash and he still gets it done.

Now for this post:
Lebron has done it before in 2006-7..https://www.givemesport.com/1016294-the ... e-they-now
The team he has now are guys he WANTED or did before the season and they sucked half the year
before that trade and the payroll has been among the top 3 since James came back and that is to
keep or get guys he WANTED;
James is a great player in todays game but every young fan today thinks there is a great player
on every team in the NBA with too many teams(watered down) and Lebron has said it himself!
I'll stick with MJ..There is a reason why his shoes have been selling so high for over 30 years :lol:

 

[2_0_6]

Lebron is the GOAT.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Lebron by a LONG SHOT. Jordan was great, he also had 4 years of college experience. Lebron was a high school kid, playing against grown men his first season. Lebron is a freak athlete, I'd take him on my team for nearly any sport.

 

[IndyHawk]

Lebron by a LONG SHOT. Jordan was great, he also had 4 years of college experience. Lebron was a high school kid, playing against grown men his first season. Lebron is a freak athlete, I'd take him on my team for nearly any sport.

Jordan left after his junior year..The one where he hit the "shot"for the national title..
There has been quite a few who came out of high school..Most you never saw.
To me Jordan and Wilt were freak athletes who had a tougher game to play in than
Lebron ever has.It's not Lebron's fault but I sure would have love to see him try some
of the stuff he does today back then.."traveling man" :lol:

 

[chris98251]

Lebron by a LONG SHOT. Jordan was great, he also had 4 years of college experience. Lebron was a high school kid, playing against grown men his first season. Lebron is a freak athlete, I'd take him on my team for nearly any sport.

Jordan left after his junior year..The one where he hit the "shot"for the national title..
There has been quite a few who came out of high school..Most you never saw.
To me Jordan and Wilt were freak athletes who had a tougher game to play in than
Lebron ever has.It's not Lebron's fault but I sure would have love to see him try some
of the stuff he does today back then.."traveling man" :lol:

Love to see him match up against Rodman or Moses Malone, who by the way came right out of high School as well. Or Maurice Lucas or Jerome Kersey.

 

[poly1274]

This seals it for me, the supporting cast that LeBron has is pure trash and he still gets it done.

But then you say his supporting cast is trash and gets it done?
2010-201 Roster: Lebron, Bosh, Wade. (Miller,Chalmers, Haslem,Jones) Also lost to Mavs in Finals:
2013-2014 Roster: Lebron, Bosh, Wade, (Ray Allen, Birdman, Battier, Beasley, Chalmers, Cole, Haslem) and still can't beat Spurs.
2014-2015 Roster: Lebron, Kyrie, Love. (Dellavedova, Jones, Harris, Shawn Marion, Mozgov, Shump, JR, Thompson.

 

[poly1274]

Can't compare Lebron to MJ

1 has 6-0 Record final
The other has 2-5 Finals record about to be 2-6.

Sure Lebron took his bad team to the finals this year, but in the eastern conference, it's a big joke. This Cavs team wouldn't be able to beat Houston, GS, OKC or even Utah in the finals.

 

[2_0_6]

Lebron is single handedly carrying the Cavs and their bunch of idiots.