NBA Finals Thread

[253hawk]

Oh no, one of your star players left and won a championship somewhere else. That's so much worse than having your team stolen and becoming a conference powerhouse while every other fan in the league taunts you about it every single year.

 

[Ozzy]

KD... what a player.

Lebron too. Gets a lot of shit for not being MJ. I watched the MJ era and he's still the best for me. But Lebron is right there.

Love this rivalry.

Grew up idolizing Jordan but to me LeBron is the just the better all around player and who I would call the greatest of all time. People get romanticized by Jordan because we grew up with him but I still give a slight nod to James. Regardless its a fun debate and just glad I got a chance to watch both.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Grew up idolizing Jordan but to me LeBron is the just the better all around player and who I would call the greatest of all time. People get romanticized by Jordan because we grew up with him but I still give a slight nod to James. Regardless its a fun debate and just glad I got a chance to watch both.

I agree.

If you're comparing the two players in a vacuum, only one player revolutionized the sport, James. He can literally play all five positions on the floor, sometimes rotating from one position to the other in the same game.

Yes Jordan won six rings, but he also had a far superior coach and supporting cast. Can't hold that against Lebron.

 

[IndyHawk]

Grew up idolizing Jordan but to me LeBron is the just the better all around player and who I would call the greatest of all time. People get romanticized by Jordan because we grew up with him but I still give a slight nod to James. Regardless its a fun debate and just glad I got a chance to watch both.

I agree.

If you're comparing the two players in a vacuum, only one player revolutionized the sport, James. He can literally play all five positions on the floor, sometimes rotating from one position to the other in the same game.

Yes Jordan won six rings, but he also had a far superior coach and supporting cast. Can't hold that against Lebron.

You forget there was Magic who played all 5 and did all well in his prime.
Lebron is great in his era which is not MJ's era or Magic's and that is obvious.
The game these days with the soft D and 3 point shootouts is just nothing to me.
You say MJ had a far superior coach/cast?He would have won with Doug Collins.
The cast he had for the first Three Peat and second is Pippen The others were not the same players.
You look at the Cavs/GS they have 3 superstars so I don't see how you can use that.
The one fact you will find is Jordan/Pippen were named on the all defensive team multiple times.
I watched most of the Bulls games for the last 10 years of MJ's time.
There is nobody that I have seen that comes close to him when it came to winning.
He had the ability to channel his will on others on the team to win.
No matter who they try to replace him with.
You will never see the likes of him again.

 

[Uncle Si]

Grew up idolizing Jordan but to me LeBron is the just the better all around player and who I would call the greatest of all time. People get romanticized by Jordan because we grew up with him but I still give a slight nod to James. Regardless its a fun debate and just glad I got a chance to watch both.

I agree.

If you're comparing the two players in a vacuum, only one player revolutionized the sport, James. He can literally play all five positions on the floor, sometimes rotating from one position to the other in the same game.

Yes Jordan won six rings, but he also had a far superior coach and supporting cast. Can't hold that against Lebron.

I disagree with this... and I'm not sure James "revolutionized" the NBA. He has certainly expanded the capabilities of big men.

Jordan had a far superior coach. I don't know about a far superior supporting cast (outside the 72 win season). Lebron is also playing in a far softer league than Jordan.

James is a hell of an offensive player. He's not putting up these numbers is the Jordan-era NBA. Austin says we may "romanticize" Jordan. I think we also forget just how much more competitive the league was when he was playing in it. This, to me, is the testament to Jordan's legacy and why the debate isn't much of one, as much as I think James is a fantastic player.

In his 6 NBA finals, Jordan beat the likes of Lakers with Magic, the Suns with Barkley/Johnson/Majerle, the Blazers with Drexler/Porter/Robinson, the Sonics with Kemp/Payton/McMillan, the Jazz (back to back) with Malone/Stockton/Hornacek while getting through deep Knicks, Pistons and Pacers teams regularly to get there, or the loaded teams in the Western Conference. Let's also not forget the legends that coached those opposing teams.

 

[Ozzy]

I just think in a vacuum James is the better all around player. He's taller, about 50 pounds heavier and can do things Jordan just couldn't do....James is a physical freak that we've never seen before. He can guard all 5 positions at an all NBA defensive level from the center to the point guard. So while Jordan was a fantastic defensive player I would give a slight nod to LeBron's versatility. He's also the better passer and rebounder. I would argue that he is a more well rounded offensive player too and actually has a higher shooting percentage from all over the court.

It is hard to argue Jordan's competitive spirit and desire to win. I will say I think Lebron would of destroyed that era. He's bigger then most big men outside of the centers of that era. He's literally bigger than Barkley was and can do it while playing like a point guard. He would of been unstoppable in that era regardless of how hard they played because he is just so much bigger, faster and stronger then the biggest players of that era.

I do think a very good argument can be made for each player and its hard to leave the realm of subjectivity for everyone involved. I idolized Jordan growing up and it took me a while to admit to myself that James is better but the more I watched the harder it was to convince myself otherwise. Plus when Sarge and I come together on a topic then by default we're right. I still love you guys either way. :shock:

 

[Uncle Si]

I will say I think Lebron would of destroyed that era. He's bigger then most big men outside of the centers of that era. He's literally bigger than Barkley was and can do it while playing like a point guard. He would of been unstoppable in that era regardless of how hard they played because he is just so much bigger, faster and stronger then the biggest players of that era.

He is bigger than most individual players, but he's not played in an era that focused on defensive tactics to win games over this run and gun (where the defense of its superstars is often measured if they were within eye sight of their opponent). He doesn't encounter traps, handchecks, doubles and a big sprawling center protecting the lane. Lebron himself is a fairly suspect defender.

Lebron benefits highly from coming into and through the league when its focus has shifted away from the 88-84 point games of the Jordan era. He's literally played in the softest era of the NBA since the late 70s. He has excelled, as he should with his size, speed and skillset.

However, I do not think he is nearly the successful player he is now playing in the Jordan era. He's not going to 8 Finals. He's not averaging triple doubles and just shoving players out of the way. I don't care of he's bigger than Barkley. He's never had to play against that type of player, and their were dozens of them in that era. He get Draymond Green.

I like this iteration of the NBA. Its fun to watch. It does not share the same drama as the 80s/90s, when points were at an absolute premium, the coaches were of the highest quality and the league was deep with 8-10 teams every year who could play for a championship.

Lebron is awesome. No doubt. But it's a much bigger jump to assume his talents translate to the same success in the Jordan era. That's why Jordan is almost unanimously considered the greatest. It's not romanticizing. Anyone that remembers watching the NBA in that era remember how physical the play was, how elaborate and stout the defending was and how immensely more deep the league was in talent. Jordan still went 6-0 in the finals.

anyways.. i'm no NBA expert.

 

[Ozzy]

Lebron would absolutely steamroll players in that era. I don't think it would take long for an elite athlete of that size to use it to his advantage. I honestly held your opinion until I went back and watched a ton of highlights from that era. To be honest I think every sport is hostage to this. Athletes just get bigger, stronger, faster and the training is so much better. NBA players didn't work out because they feared it would hurt their shots. Take the dunk on Durant where everyone complained it would of been a crucial early 3rd foul. Lebron got hammered and still went right through Durant and dunked on him. Physicality is the one area(which is what tough, hands on defense plays into) I think Lebron would shine.

While I think both players would shine in each era I would guess that LeBron would have an easier time doing so. The fun thing about these debates is that we will never really know. I challenged a buddy to this. Watch a highlight video of Jordan and then watch one of Lebron. It was interesting to watch and compare the two eras, players etc.

 

[Uncle Si]

He's bigger and faster than players from any era, Austin. I'm not sure I see the point in that comparison. The difference here is that the competitive nature of the two era's is starkly different. If you do go back and watch highlights of the past, it's also important to add some context. The two leagues cannot exist in the same vacuum, as you put it.

Jordan era NBA was far more defensive, with an insistence on making every point difficult to get. Teams were far better coached and their were multiple superstars on many teams throughout the league. Karl Malone was 6'9", the same size as Lebron James. Who in the current NBA fits that mold at that level? Draymond Green (6' 7")? You had true centers like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing patrolling the paint, big power forwards the same size as Lebron banging the low post, point guards taking hits to set up pick and rolls, slow offenses forced into half court sets. Lebron's not walking around a perimeter defender and than rolling into the paint for uncontested dunks in that era. And is he going to defend the paint when his opposite number backs him down? Will he roll off (he sure as hell didnt in this series) when the ball kicks out? Can he get his points while putting in the required defensive shifts players of that era did? Remember, Jordan was a perennial defensive first teamer.

Lebron era NBA clearly shies away from the defensive nature of the Jordan era, actually placing rules down to prevent defenses from controlling games and allowing offensive players to excel. There have been maybe 3-4 teams each year "capable" of winning a title, with it rarely actually being 4. They want players to score and Lebron easily takes advantage of that.

Lebron would be an all star in the Jordan era. He would be an occasional MVP candidate. His averages would be much lower than they are now, his defense would be an issue and I don't see him coming near Jordan's scoring averages, defensive awards and titles.

That's the bigger difference. Yes, Lebron could excel in that era. Of course he could, he's an excellent player. But he's not the best player in that league year in, year out and I don't think anyone is suggesting he's in the conversation for best player of all time. This isn't a love for Jordan, this is recognizing the stark difference in the two leagues and appreciating just how much harder Jordan had to play to match the numbers Lebron gets just by strolling by the likes of Clay Thomas. Imagine Lebron matching up with the late 80s Pistons. He's not getting a triple double in a game where the winner averages 105 points (which is 10 points less than the loser averaged in this series.)

In the theory of Malcolm Gladwell's Tipping Point, Lebron was extremely fortunate, whereas the Malones, Ewings, etc. can only dwell on the what ifs.

 

[Ozzy]

No one is suggesting he's in the conversation for the best player of all time? That has been the topic of discussion on every major debate show, sportscenter segment and the I've personally heard multiple players asked about from Jordans era from Pippen(who says Lebron is better for what its worth), Barkley, Shaq to multiple others. Nick Wright of Foxsports actually lays out a fantastic argument for why James is the great player of all time regardless of what he does moving forward. I personally think Lebron will finish as the greatest of all time but he needs to do some things to cement that.

I think you're overstating the parity form that era. I would argue that they only had a handful of competitive teams in that ere too with a handful of teams taking turns making it to the finals.

In regards to the differences of the leagues I do sort of see what you're saying and Lebron might have a tougher time getting a triple double but I still think he dominates as well as anyone. Even if I concede that his numbers dip(which I don't really agree with) He would still put up better all around numbers than anyone else would. I think calling him an occasional mvp candidate is laughable. What part of his game would make him much worse in that era? You're assuming he couldn't adapt and play like everyone else had to. I argue his physical traits alone would make that transition very easy.

Just because the league plays a different style, I don't think its fair to use that against Lebron or assume he couldn't do well in a more physical game. I'm honestly surprised you're using that argument as most people, even in the pro Jordan camp, tend to think the opposite and see that as the area he would have the least problems dealing with.

I'm also of the opinion that a guy like Durant would be just as good in that era as well. Throw in Westbrook too. Stockton trying to cover Lebron or Westbrook at the top of the key or wherever they decide to take him is almost unfair.

Have I chipped away at your beliefs yet?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Grew up idolizing Jordan but to me LeBron is the just the better all around player and who I would call the greatest of all time. People get romanticized by Jordan because we grew up with him but I still give a slight nod to James. Regardless its a fun debate and just glad I got a chance to watch both.

I agree.

If you're comparing the two players in a vacuum, only one player revolutionized the sport, James. He can literally play all five positions on the floor, sometimes rotating from one position to the other in the same game.

Yes Jordan won six rings, but he also had a far superior coach and supporting cast. Can't hold that against Lebron.

You forget there was Magic who played all 5 and did all well in his prime.
Lebron is great in his era which is not MJ's era or Magic's and that is obvious.
The game these days with the soft D and 3 point shootouts is just nothing to me.
You say MJ had a far superior coach/cast?He would have won with Doug Collins.
The cast he had for the first Three Peat and second is Pippen The others were not the same players.
You look at the Cavs/GS they have 3 superstars so I don't see how you can use that.
The one fact you will find is Jordan/Pippen were named on the all defensive team multiple times.
I watched most of the Bulls games for the last 10 years of MJ's time.
There is nobody that I have seen that comes close to him when it came to winning.
He had the ability to channel his will on others on the team to win.
No matter who they try to replace him with.
You will never see the likes of him again.

Magic IMO is a more fair comparison to James as far as versatility........but other than assists, Lebron far surpasses Magic in career pts per game, etc. by almost 10 pts per game over his career.

And Lebron does not have two superstars, neither Love or Irving can carry a team, as we found out when Lebron went to Miami. Did Love even score a point in the last game of the finals? Both wildly inconsistent players, and nowhere near the the level of Pippin.

Listen, this is a fun debate, and it's VERY close for me. Jordan is THE MAN, but if you forced me to choose GOAT? I'm going with Lebron, because he's the most well rounded versatile player in the history of the sport. He can do everything.

 

[Ozzy]

It is a fun debate and I could very well be wrong. The one thing I am sure of is that it's much closer then most people want to admit or believe. I get why some people are put off by James but you're missing a special talent in the process instead of enjoying seeing something we might not see for a long time. Not speaking to you Si just a general observation from the crown who hates James.

Indyhawk I noticed one comment from your post above. You said Jordan would will his team to win and I do agree with that. But I do think we overstate that a little. The Bulls won almost 60 games the year after Jordan left with almost the same team in place minus Jordan. How did Lebron's team fair the year after he left? Cleveland went from making the finals to being one of the worst teams in NBA history without him. I'm not saying you're not right about Jordan but I think Lebron, while doing it slightly differently, had a much greater impact on actual wins and losses because of his talent. He literally carried terrible rosters to the finals multiple times. No one else has been able to do that and may never be able to match him in that regard.

 

[Uncle Si]

Unfortunately you're simply reinforcing them.

You are missing alot of components of the style of basketball played at that era. But it's not worth getting into. I think it just shows how different it is. "How would Stockton cover Lebron at the perimeter" shows the difference between the two eras. Stockton wouldn't cover him alone. He'd turn him into double teams and traps, push him towards the big power forward or center controlling the paind. But in the modern NBA, that's basically how it goes. Run by (or shoot over) your perimeter defender and it's basically a walk (literally, by rule) to the basket. Hardly anything is contested.

The era itself is littered with very good to great teams and a long, long list of the NBA's all time greats. This just reflects how difficult it was for Jordan's teams to make it to and win 6 titles. I listed the players he went against in his Finals, leaving out the players and teams those Western conference teams beat just to get to Jordan (as well as the teams his Bulls beat.)

In terms of LeBron, you missed another one of my points. He is certainly in the conversation as the greatest player of all time. I am saying he would not be if he came up in that era of basketball. He would be a perennial All Star, occasional MVP candidate. He would not have Jordan's scoring records, defensive awards and nowhere near his titles. Players like Durant, Westbrook and Lebron are scoring in droves due to a complete lack of individual and team defending in this era. Not sure how you can watch games from both and come to any different conclusion. You compare the big names of this era with those of Jordan's and it's almost laughable to see any parity.

In terms of what others say.. well, to suggest that a group of people look idyllically at the past is no different than to suggest that those same place far too much emphasis on the present. It's perspective.

I enjoy the scoring of the modern game, love the scoring. It's not worse, it's just different.

 

[Uncle Si]

Listen, this is a fun debate, and it's VERY close for me. Jordan is THE MAN, but if you forced me to choose GOAT? I'm going with Lebron, because he's the most well rounded versatile player in the history of the sport. He can do everything.

Except defend and then have to play offense.

I love Lebron. We exaggerate his abilities because it's so damn easy in this iteration of the NBA.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Listen, this is a fun debate, and it's VERY close for me. Jordan is THE MAN, but if you forced me to choose GOAT? I'm going with Lebron, because he's the most well rounded versatile player in the history of the sport. He can do everything.

Except defend and then have to play offense.

I love Lebron. We exaggerate his abilities because it's so damn easy in this iteration of the NBA.

Up until 2014 Lebron made 5 straight 1st team all defense.

We can debate intangibles like is Lebron clutch like MJ, is he a good team leader, does he make players better around him, etc. Those are real conversations when comparing him to MJ. But saying he's not a good defender is flat out incorrect, he's one of the best in the league.

 

[Uncle Si]

Listen, this is a fun debate, and it's VERY close for me. Jordan is THE MAN, but if you forced me to choose GOAT? I'm going with Lebron, because he's the most well rounded versatile player in the history of the sport. He can do everything.

Except defend and then have to play offense.

I love Lebron. We exaggerate his abilities because it's so damn easy in this iteration of the NBA.

Up until 2014 Lebron made 5 straight 1st team all defense.

We can debate intangibles like is Lebron clutch like MJ, is he a good team leader, does he make players better around him, etc. Those are real conversations when comparing him to MJ. But saying he's not a good defender is flat out incorrect, he's one of the best in the league.

So, clutch is an intangible we can debate, but being a good (best?) defender in a league where the standard of defense is far less is not? I mean going on facts alone you could poke a number of holes in that. However, intangibly speaking, being on a first team defense with the likes of Serge Ibaka, Marc Gasol, and Tyson Chandler should be subjected to alot of debate about its merit in contrast to Dennis Rodman, Gary Payton and David Robinson.

Again, Lebron is fantastic. I don't think he reaches the same status he has now playing in the Jordan era.

 

[Ozzy]

Edit. Sarge said it much better in far fewer words than I did.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Listen, this is a fun debate, and it's VERY close for me. Jordan is THE MAN, but if you forced me to choose GOAT? I'm going with Lebron, because he's the most well rounded versatile player in the history of the sport. He can do everything.

Except defend and then have to play offense.

I love Lebron. We exaggerate his abilities because it's so damn easy in this iteration of the NBA.

Up until 2014 Lebron made 5 straight 1st team all defense.

We can debate intangibles like is Lebron clutch like MJ, is he a good team leader, does he make players better around him, etc. Those are real conversations when comparing him to MJ. But saying he's not a good defender is flat out incorrect, he's one of the best in the league.

So, clutch is an intangible we can debate, but being a good (best?) defender in a league where the standard of defense is far less is not? I mean going on facts alone you could poke a number of holes in that. However, intangibly speaking, being on a first team defense with the likes of Serge Ibaka, Marc Gasol, and Tyson Chandler should be subjected to alot of debate about its merit in contrast to Dennis Rodman, Gary Payton and David Robinson.

Again, Lebron is fantastic. I don't think he reaches the same status he has now playing in the Jordan era.

You said Lebron wasn't a good defender, and I corrected you. He doesn't possess a time machine to go back and play in the Jordan era, all he can do is play now, and he's been one of the best in the league. Period.

 

[Uncle Si]

I didnt say he wasn't a good defender. I said he never had to be a good defender and try and get his points at the same time. "except defend AND THEN have to play offense." You didn't correct anything, you inferred a statement not made.

I also didn't debate whether he was one of the best now. He is the best now. If we are going to be debate two players from different eras I would assume we would bring in perspective of those eras. It's a pretty common debate. If you don't mind, i'd like to continue having it, even without a time machine. We still do have facts. We can see the different styles and players that existed in both eras. That's part of debating "intangibles"

Period.

 

[gowazzu02]

The real end to the Lebron Jordan debate is to ask how many finals did Jordan lose?