.Net scoop is hitting the internet - opponents penalties

[SalishHawkFan]

How you know it's on purpose:

If it were on purpose, they wouldn't want to get caught doing it, so they'd call an even game if it were nationally televised, say Thursday night home opener. They REALLY wouldn't want to get caught being biased vs Green Bay after the Wail Mary game.

So of course, THAT game is the only game our opponents got called penalties on.

Say what you will, but there's a long history here.

Last season we had a contest to predict the schedule. I won that contest on here by a large margin. Why? I said, how could I PURPOSELY screw the Seahawks schedule? Worked really hard at giving us the most difficult road to hoe. Guess what? The part of the schedule I nailed was the parts where I said this is how they can screw us.

I completely believe this is done because the NFL wants Seattle in the back of the bus. Why? Many theories. But for me, the Green Bay game being the game they weren't biased is the smoking gun.

 

[twisted_steel2]

So I just had a this conversation with Curtis Crabtree

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/status/540016988005736448[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/status/540019719802085377[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/status/540023445367451648[/tweet]

Curtis is not impressed. I guess I see his point. While I obviously find this statistical anomaly rather curious, the conclusion can not be verified, and thus, this is just a bunch of numbers.

Call it a night boys.

I looked over all his responses to you and Sac.... he's drawn a line in the sand that there isn't an issue. He's not going to read that article(he said he did, I doubt it), absorb it, think about it, his mind isn't going there. End of discussion.

 

[Hawks46]

Another theory is that because Seattle commits SOO many penalties (most of them warranted) perhaps, its difficult for refs not to fixate on them when they are consistently committing infractions.

All said though, the fact that the refs are calling so many less penalties against Seahawks opponents compared to the opponents' mean for the rest of the year is disconcerting to say the least.

It's a good theory until you realize one thing: refs are position to see certain parts of the field. The umpire in the backfield isn't going to see defensive or offensive PI 10 yards downfield. He's looking specifically at: procedure penalties, holding, hands to the face, and probably the biggest one now, roughing the passer. That's his job at that specific point.

So, I've seen Bruce Irvin literally tackled by a lot of people, in the Reskins game and the Niners game specifically. Staly dove at Irvin's knees from behind and there was no call. It's not just a competitive advantage, but if teams know this (and I believe they do...some of the offensive holding is so egregious guys aren't even trying to hide it), it's going to get our guys hurt. Getting our guys hurt is immensely unfair to them ,and it affects the season the rest of the way out.

Bennett and Avril get held a ton as well. I've seen on play where Avril was dragged down by his facemask. Bennett is big enough, that you don't see it physically affect him, but other guys can get hurt.

It would be nice if the Hawks would put together a video collage of Wilson getting hit in the head, Irvin's knees being taken out, etc. ALL of the player safety crap, then go to the NFL and basically tell them that if something isn't going to be done about it, then player safety isn't really a priority to them and it's all about liability (which it is).

 

[LawlessHawk]

I completely believe this is done because the NFL wants Seattle in the back of the bus. Why? Many theories.

Has Paul Allen ever really "fit in" with the other owners/ownership group? Of all of them, he just seems to be the "outlier".

 

[ringless]

I got something else from this article.....

The 49ers get the 4th most help in the league, however their fans lead the league in most complaints about the Refs sabotaging them, and the refs causing all 5 losses thus far this year. Interesting

 

[lobohawk]

So I just had a this conversation with Curtis Crabtree

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/status/540016988005736448[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/status/540019719802085377[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/status/540023445367451648[/tweet]

Curtis is not impressed. I guess I see his point. While I obviously find this statistical anomaly rather curious, the conclusion can not be verified, and thus, this is just a bunch of numbers.

Call it a night boys.

I looked over all his responses to you and Sac.... he's drawn a line in the sand that there isn't an issue. He's not going to read that article(he said he did, I doubt it), absorb it, think about it, his mind isn't going there. End of discussion.

Curtis Crabtree's thoughtful response

 

[twisted_steel2]

Gregg Bell ‏@gbellseattle 7 minutes ago Renton, WA
Carroll says he, NFL talking over #Seahawks having twice as many flags as foes. "They've been good about it" & are aware of it, he says

 

[pehawk]

This is the type of thing that could peak Florio's interest. I know being a part of this community I'm bound to the oath of hating him, but still, he's a lawyer. This seems right up his (Kirstie) alley.

 

[kearly]

The NFL could fix these numbers instantly if they just instructed officials to call half the holds that happen against Michael Bennett.

 

[sc85sis]

So I just had a this conversation with Curtis Crabtree

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/status/540016988005736448[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/status/540019719802085377[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/status/540023445367451648[/tweet]

Curtis is not impressed. I guess I see his point. While I obviously find this statistical anomaly rather curious, the conclusion can not be verified, and thus, this is just a bunch of numbers.

Call it a night boys.

Maybe this would make it clearer for him.

 

[Largent80]

Here's the deal. If nothing gets brought up to the league, nothing will happen and even then, I doubt anything changes which will make it that much sweeter when we win it ALL....AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hawks46]

The NFL could fix these numbers instantly if they just instructed officials to call half the holds that happen against Michael Bennett.

Or Bruce Irvin. Just let those two guys get natural pressure without getting raped Texas prison style, and Bang ! our pass rush magically comes back.

The biggest difference in our pass defense this year to last year is defensive line pressure. It ties in with the NFL trying to reign in Seattle's pass defense by admitting they passed rules aimed specifically at us....destroy our pass rush, and we're going to get passed on. The fact that many of these holds are egregious and obvious (think Staley tackling Irvin from behind at the knees...out on the edge) means it's either gross incompetence or bias. Either way, the NFL doesn't have a cogent way to refute the facts.

 

[lobohawk]

The NFL could fix these numbers instantly if they just instructed officials to call half the holds that happen against Michael Bennett.

Or Bruce Irvin. Just let those two guys get natural pressure without getting raped Texas prison style, and Bang ! our pass rush magically comes back.

The biggest difference in our pass defense this year to last year is defensive line pressure. It ties in with the NFL trying to reign in Seattle's pass defense by admitting they passed rules aimed specifically at us....destroy our pass rush, and we're going to get passed on. The fact that many of these holds are egregious and obvious (think Staley tackling Irvin from behind at the knees...out on the edge) means it's either gross incompetence or bias. Either way, the NFL doesn't have a cogent way to refute the facts.

Or Bennett getting his head twisted during Denver's comeback in Seattle.

 

[StoneCold]

An interesting theory a friend of mine posited is that the hawks defense doesn't cause a lot of penalties because they don't run exotic packages and blitzes. Most offensive penalties are procedural, motion of false starts and holding. Defenses that jump around a lot cause a lot of the false starts and blitzing can induce more holding penalties and linemen try to deal with extra players to cover and the deception of which guy is their assignment. I've noticed there are fewer false starts this year at the Clink. Teams are preparing for the loud environment and have focused on cutting those down. It's interesting to note int eh article it shows the Redskins have more penalties called on the opposition than any other team, they also employ more blitzes and exotic Cover 0 coverage than most other teams.

Seattle doesn't try to trick you. They count on being faster and better and beating you even though their doing exactly what you expect. Curious what our disparity was last year and if in both years there has been a noticeable difference road and away.

SC

 

[ivotuk]

“I think it’s interesting, fascinating,” Carroll said on Monday. “When we won the national championship the first year, the next year our opponents were penalized the least — for the next four years.”

Our penalties are 'fine'. We're averaging just half a penalty more per game that we did last year; half a penalty less if you include the playoffs. The huge drop-off in opponent penalties -- especially when they are playing a physical team like Seattle -- is inexplicable

. The Fisher-Williams Rams (who, together in their Tennessee scumbag days set the NFL record for most penalty yards in a game) had only 2 penalties against us. A delay of game and unsportsmanlike conduct after the whistle. So in 136 plays run, they didn't commit a single penalty.

Great point.

I wonder if it's an unconscious bias like mentioned above. Or more likely, unconscious favoritism, which some people seem to be able to justify.

 

[morgulon1]

I have been, and will continue to be, monitoring this situation very closely.

Yes, I'm not sure what I think about this.

 

[HawkAroundTheClock]

Danny O'Neil said he's "going into the numbers" on this today (Thursday). I'm curious to hear how much of it comes from the Fieldgulls article, if any, or if he has a different statistical analysis.

It was nice to hear him give the topic real weight and a good amount of time for discussion. Jim was still fixated on our pre-snap penalties – completely missing the point – and nearly advocated for Pete to be fined for talking about it.

Clayton level-headedly acknowledged that the phenomenon is weird. He seemed intrigued.

 

[lobohawk]

Danny O'Neil said he's "going into the numbers" on this today (Thursday). I'm curious to hear how much of it comes from the Fieldgulls article, if any, or if he has a different statistical analysis.

It was nice to hear him give the topic real weight and a good amount of time for discussion. Jim was still fixated on our pre-snap penalties – completely missing the point – and nearly advocated for Pete to be fined for talking about it.

Clayton level-headedly acknowledged that the phenomenon is weird. He seemed intrigued.

Jim sounds like Salk, who just flaps his arms and squawks, "presnap, presnap". Also way off target. His only comeback is they don't pass a lot. End of discussion.

 

[seabowl]

It's a reach but could the refs have been instructed to watch out for the Hawk penalties during the game since Seattle is a notoriously penalty laden team thus leaving the refs to not concentrate on what the other teams players are doing on any given play (possibly committing a penalty)?

 

[RiverDog]

In one sense the penalties called against the Hawks do matter as they contribute to the disparity between PAO and PAYO. Where it doesn't come into play is in explaining why opponents are penalized less than their average. Though it was only five teams and that is a very small sample size. Subtle whiff of smoke, could be from burnt toast.

SC

A good part of the disparity can be explained by the following two facts:

1. Pete Carroll-coached teams, going back to his college days, are notoriously heavily penalized. Indeed, we were the most heavily penalized team in the league last season. So it should surprise no one that we are again amongst the league leaders in drawing flags.

2. We are a run orientated team, the most run orientated team in the league. We have the second most rushing attempts and by far the fewest passing attempts of any team in the league. Run orientated teams draw fewer penalties. Dallas and the Jets are right behind us in rushing offense and right behind us in the fewest penalties drawn. Houston and Cleveland are both in the top ten in rushing attempts and in the bottom 10 in penalties drawn. I haven't done a full blown case study on the subject, but it seems clear to me that there is a direct relationship between the number of penalties drawn and whether you feature a running or passing offense.

The combination of these two facts, Pete's teams being heavily penalized and our offense being run orientated, has led to a wide discrepancy between penalties called against us vs. penalties called against our opponents. While I do agree that there's such a large difference that even the combination of the above two facts can't explain all of it and I would encourage Pete to get into some of the ref's heads about it, I do think that some of you are overstating the problem.