Pete Carroll vs. Mike Holmgren

[korboko]

This question will be answered tomorrow night after the game.

How is that? Holmgren took the team to the Super Bowl. What does winning tomorrow night answer the question?

Well, after tomorrow... if they win then Carroll has also took the team to the Super Bowl. A lot faster than Holmgren.

 

[OrFan]

This question will be answered tomorrow night after the game.

Agreed. If and when we win tomorrow, Pete will have, in my opinion, done a better job in less time than Holmgren. The team Pete has put together actually instills confidence in the fans. The 05 team, Holmgrens best, was a case of not believing they had gotten that far every week.

 

[akseahawkfan]

This question will be answered tomorrow night after the game.

How is that? Holmgren took the team to the Super Bowl. What does winning tomorrow night answer the question?

Well, after tomorrow... if they win then Carroll has also took the team to the Super Bowl. A lot faster than Holmgren.

A lot faster because he had a better starting point. Even with that advantage, Carroll has only had two wining seasons here, including this one. Carroll has converted me, I didn't like him being hired originally. But seriously if you're going to crown Carroll as the best Seahawks Coach let's see what he does over a ten year period to make it comparable with Holmgren.

 

[sc85sis]

How did Pete have a better starting point? The team had won 9 games the two years before he arrived. That was the team's worst record in over 20 years.

The Hawks team Holmy started with had won 16 games in its two previous seasons. While not world beaters, they certainly were way better than the team Pete inherited.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here

A lot faster because he had a better starting point. Even with that advantage, Carroll has only had two wining seasons here, including this one. Carroll has converted me, I didn't like him being hired originally. But seriously if you're going to crown Carroll as the best Seahawks Coach let's see what he does over a ten year period to make it comparable with Holmgren.

I respectfully disagree on Pete Carroll "had a better starting point".

Holmgren's first four seasons were 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002.
Carroll's first four seasons were: 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013

Two seasons prior to Mike Holmgren taking over, the Seahawks' record under Dennis Erickson's
1997: 8-8
1998: 8-8

Two seasons prior to Pete Carroll taking over, the Seahawks' record under Mike Holmgren's and Jim Mora's were:
2008: 4-12
2009: 5-11

You just can't say that Carroll had better starting point or advantage over Holmgren. I would argue that Carroll inherited a much bigger mess than Holmgren did. Due to circumstances, I didn't have any exposure to football at the time so I don't know what kind of team, personnel wise, the Seahawks were in 1997 and 1998. But when Pete Carroll took over in 2010 the Seahawks were an aged team on a downward spiral.

The Seahawks' record under Holmgren's first four seasons are:
1999: 9-7. Finished 1st place in the division but lost at home in the playoffs to Dan Marino and the Dolphins.
2000: 6-10. Finished 4th place, no playoffs.
2001: 9-7. Finished 2nd place, narrowly missed the playoffs.
2002: 7-9. Finished 2nd place, no playoffs.

So in Holmgren's first four years, he complied a 31-33 regular season record and 0-1 playoffs record with 1 divisional crown.

The Seahawks' record under Carroll's first four seasons are:
2010: 7-9. Finished 1st place in the division, 1-1 in the playoffs.
2011: 7-9. Finished 3rd place in the division.
2012: 11-5. Finished 2nd place in the division, 1-1 in the playoffs.
2013: 13-3. Finished 1st place in the division, playoffs record TBD.

So in Carroll's first four years, he compiled a 38-26 regular season record, 2 divisional crowns, 3 playoffs appearances and 3 playoffs wins so far. Not only Carroll rebuilds much faster than Holmgren, he has more playoffs appearances, better regular season AND playoffs records, too.

IMHO, while Mike Holmgren can build the Seahawks' offense, the defense leaves a lot to be desired. I remember those days where the Seahawks had the tendency to have the opposing teams mount 4th quarter comback, not the Russell Wilson era where the Seahawks are the comeback kids. While Holmgren's a fine coach, and NFL Hall of Fame worthy in my opinion, he's not fit to be in the front office making personnel decisions. Pete Carroll, on the other hand, excels in both roles.

Holmgren found the Seahawks franchise QB in Matt Hasselbeck in his third season (2001) but Matt Hasselbeck struggled his first two years. Not until his third year (2003) that he cements his position. Like Holmgren, Carroll found his franchise QB in Russell Wilson in his third year. But unlike Matt Hasselbeck, Russell Wilson is a probowl QB in his first two seasons. Awesome to the 12th power!

While I still love Mike Holmgren and greatly appreciate what he had done for the Seahawks, the fan base and the Seattle community in general, I fully believe that in time Pete Carroll will be the best head coach the Seahawks ever had. So far, within the same time frame, Pete Carroll has done a much better job. While Holmgren's teams are known for being finesse and disciplined, they didn't carry as much intimidation as Carroll's teams. Carroll's Seahawks of the last 2 years actually put fear into their opponents while Holmgren's teams, if my memory serves me correctly, never really did.

 

[seaNOmercy]

Pete Carroll is already the Best seahawks coach of all time in my opinion. He used the scorched earth approach and built this team from the ground up and i would take this team against any in seahawks history.

First off, I want to say that this is the most informative / interesting thread I've read all week - perfect debate material b/c you can make a valid case on either side.

Secondly, I'll be able to say one way or the other which side I'm on depending on who wins tomorrow - at least for now...

Lastly, I like the point that Lynch Mob makes above. Personally, I agree with him. I'd take this years team over any other in franchise history ('84 and '05). Although I never actually saw the '84 team play... But if you're talking about the best coach, you're also talking about the best team (IMO) and I think this years team is just that. Winning tomorrow would solidify that statement, especially when you factor in the complete roster overhaul Coach Carroll implemented and the short period of time it took him to be successful. It's difficult for me to say which was more dominant in a single season; this years D or the offense of '05.

That being said, I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE GAME TOMORROW, GAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!! GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[warden]

Pete Carroll tied Holmgrens record for most playoff wins by a Seahawk coach. Mike coached the Seahawks for ten year and got 4 playoff wins. Pete could break that record in two weeks in his 4th year

 

[TDOTSEAHAWK]

Holmy greatly benefited from a horrendous division and had no plan for the defense. His greatest achievement was developing Matt Hasselback into an above average NFL QB.

Pete has a plan for everything. Every aspect of the team is built in Carroll's image.

Other than developing QBs, Holmy is inferior to Pete as a head coach. Remember Holmgren was given the full carte blanche when he got here - and couldn't draft worth a damn.

 

[Sarlacc83]

Not even a question anymore. Pete's team was the first with back to back double digit win seasons, and he has a more complete team and vision (just as TDOT mentioned above). Best Seahawks coach to date.

 

[warden]

Players had to adjust to fit in with Holmgren's system.Pete adjust his system to fit players skill sets

 

[rjdriver]

I love Chuck Knox, Mike Holgren, and Pete Carroll.

Different times, different GM's, different players.

I'm grateful for all three. Each did things I will remember as fan for the rest of my life. What I like about Pete, he's going to deliver the ultimate reward for any fan.

 

[SalishHawkFan]

Holmgren had Joey Galloway, a fantastic deep threat, which he drove away from the team. He had Jon Kitna, a strong armed Qb with intelligence, a perfect fit for Galloway, whom he ruined because instead of fitting his system for Kitna, he tried to fit Kitna into his system. He had Ahman Green, who went on the year after he was sent to GB in leading the NFL in rushing.

Holmgren gutted a team on the verge of greatness and spent 7 years rebuilding it to where all he gave us was 4 playoff wins in 10 years.

I tore my hair out over Mike Holmgren. When we reached the big game, I said "FINALLY! We could have been here years ago but for his ego."

Loved the man, was frustrated by the coach.

Pete? Awesomesauce. Best coach in Seahawks history. Not even close.

 

[Raptor22]

Coach Pete helped get us a Super Bowl.

 

[themunn]

This question will be answered tomorrow night after the game.

How is that? Holmgren took the team to the Super Bowl. What does winning tomorrow night answer the question?

Well, after tomorrow... if they win then Carroll has also took the team to the Super Bowl. A lot faster than Holmgren.

A lot faster because he had a better starting point. Even with that advantage, Carroll has only had two wining seasons here, including this one. Carroll has converted me, I didn't like him being hired originally. But seriously if you're going to crown Carroll as the best Seahawks Coach let's see what he does over a ten year period to make it comparable with Holmgren.

The fact that Walter Jones was a Seahawk before Holmgren took over means your point about a better starting point is automatically invalidated.

There are only 4 players here that were on the roster in 2009 (Unger, Mebane, Bryant and Ryan), and from 2010, the only veterans that Pete signed that year that were still with the team in 2013 were Robinson, Clemons, Giacomini and Lynch (the latter two who joined mid-season, and Robinson joined after final cuts in preseason). Everyone else that played in 2010 was either a rookie or is no longer with the team.

So that's what Pete thought of his "starting point". Enough to get rid of it completely after just 3 seasons.

 

[SPOHAWK]

I think that Holmy set the stage kinda gave cred to Seattle and Pete has taken that obviously to the next level....before Holmgren and after Knox we were well a joke of a franchise. Then after Holmgren we had Mora and Mr. Allen saw that and needed to bring in a star to retrun cred to the franchsie.....Pete! IMHO

 

[warden]

Pete Carroll has more playoff wins in his four years with the Seahawks then Holmgren had in ten

 

[tacomahawk]

Is this really still a debate? Pete has "won forever"

 

[blkhwk]

Holmgren was a personnel nightmare, remember he was given all the keys to the castle when hired. He took over a team much like the 49er team that Harbaugh inherited. Loads of talent lacking discipline. What did Holgren do with it........ here are some of my favorites

Replace QB Jon Kitna with his own "hand picked" guys. He traded for Glenn Foley who couldn't beat out Kitna, drafted Huard who he gave the job to, only to have to put Kitna back in after Huard was injured (Kitna outplayed him by the way), finally trading for Hass and signing Dilfer.

Traded away Ahman Green (who as stated already lead the league in rushing) for CB Fred Vinson who I don't think every played a down for the 'Hawks.

Kept DE Sinclair and let DE McCrary go. McCrary had a nice run with the Ravens, Sinclair out of the league after being diagnosed with diabetes.

Kept a wore out Cortez and let Sam Adams go at DT.

Drafted Hutch (nice pick) only to let Pete Kendall go the same off season. Too many draft day FUBAR's to even list i.e. Lamar King

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

Carroll's already #1 and by the time he's finished he'll probably have left an unbeatable legacy.

 

[Northhawk]

Pete Carroll has more playoff wins in his four years with the Seahawks then Holmgren had in ten

And one of those is a Superbowl win. End of discussion IMO.