Pocic

[hawk45]

did you even watch the pre-season? Pocic looked below average.

Once Britt rolled his ankle Pocic became way to valuable to risk

I watched the pre-season and Pocic looked very promising.

The coaches were keeping Pocic out of the lineup long before Britt rolled his ankle so I don't understand your comment. Folks have been frustrated at keeping Pocic on ice the entire season.

With good reason, based on Pocic's performance last game. The only thing that would detract from that viewpoint would be if Pocic struggles down the road. That hasn't happened yet, so thus far all the evidence is on the side of the coaches making yet another mistake by slow-rolling the one draft pick they've ever made who seems to be ready-on-day-one.

 

[IrishNW]

did you even watch the pre-season? Pocic looked below average.

Once Britt rolled his ankle Pocic became way to valuable to risk

I watched the pre-season and Pocic looked very promising.

The coaches were keeping Pocic out of the lineup long before Britt rolled his ankle so I don't understand your comment. Folks have been frustrated at keeping Pocic on ice the entire season.

With good reason, based on Pocic's performance last game. The only thing that would detract from that viewpoint would be if Pocic struggles down the road. That hasn't happened yet, so thus far all the evidence is on the side of the coaches making yet another mistake by slow-rolling the one draft pick they've ever made who seems to be ready-on-day-one.

and I watched the pre-season and Pocic looked like a rookie lineman. The coaches kept him out of the lineup because pocic didn't win the job during training camp.

My comment was referring to the last game btw.

btw I am a Pocic fan
I was really hoping he was going to win the RG spot and I am very excited about his future.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Pocic looks like Shaquill Griffin does - getting walloped, but in a promising way. It's the NFL baptism of fire. It doesn't mean he'll be bad. It does mean that there might be wisdom in not tossing him into the fire right away.

 

[Seymour]

Man people are angry around here.

Anyone think that Pocic was so successful because he wasn't thrust into the starting roll too soon? Anyone ever give someone the benefit of the doubt around here?

Why would they when he pretty much showed the same thing in the pre season?

Cable deserves the benefit of the doubt exactly why? Besides that, there is no doubt when it comes to him anyway.

did you even watch the pre-season? Pocic looked below average.

Once Britt rolled his ankle Pocic became way to valuable to risk

Yes. And I too saw a different pre-season than you did it would appear. Also, below average is superior to league worst (RG and RT)

Britts foot has nothing to do with his value. He can move from guard to center you know. :idea:

 

[Seymour]

I'm pretty sure Montana's post was tongue-in-cheek because Montana has been begging for us to put Pocic anywhere, including LT. He's the engineer of the Pocic train.

I think you miss read this one. He is back to shoveling coal it would appear.
No idea where he gets Griffin is being abused from either.

Pocic looks like Shaquill Griffin does - getting walloped, but in a promising way. It's the NFL baptism of fire. It doesn't mean he'll be bad. It does mean that there might be wisdom in not tossing him into the fire right away.

 

[sutz]

I know folks around here don't like "conventional wisdom" but I go back to the old rule of thumb that says it's a rare OL that can step right in and play at a high level. I was never annoyed at the idea of Procic sitting out early in his career. It's actually the norm, and he gets a lot of practice time without the stress of playing. Seems to me he did OK in NY for a few reps, so starting him this week is not totally scary to me.

 

[Seymour]

I know folks around here don't like "conventional wisdom" but I go back to the old rule of thumb that says it's a rare OL that can step right in and play at a high level. I was never annoyed at the idea of Procic sitting out early in his career. It's actually the norm, and he gets a lot of practice time without the stress of playing. Seems to me he did OK in NY for a few reps, so starting him this week is not totally scary to me.

I agree with most of this. What I don't agree with is that he needs to play at a "high level" to be better than at least 2 starters that are out there "protecting" (ie risking) our QB. Below average would be a welcome improvement. Our passing game finally got some nice production against NY. Wilson was still under pressure, but it was down to 1 instead of 3 pass rushers and look what happened.

 

[Sports Hernia]

Pocic graded out to 78.9 for pass blocking yesterday, Joeckel was hovering around a 59 for the year.

Obviously only one game, but I say let the kid keep playing, he's a very well rounded O-lineman for a rookie. IMO he's only going to get better the more he plays. Got all the tools to be a very good guard or center.

THIS! Could it be a one game fluke? I suppose, but he passed the eye test.

 

[hawk45]

I know folks around here don't like "conventional wisdom" but I go back to the old rule of thumb that says it's a rare OL that can step right in and play at a high level. I was never annoyed at the idea of Procic sitting out early in his career. It's actually the norm, and he gets a lot of practice time without the stress of playing. Seems to me he did OK in NY for a few reps, so starting him this week is not totally scary to me.

Not the norm on this team, where we'll throw ice-dancers in right out of the chute.

The closest thing to a defense for this is Dib's contention that they learned their lesson with their method of throwing basketball players to the wolves willy-nilly, and that taking it slow with Pocic represents a learning curve.

I think it's (at least) equally as likely that they made the wrong decision with their past projects playing too soon, and they are making the wrong decision with Pocic now keeping him on the bench, because they are utterly hapless at evaluating OL talent and readiness.

 

[mikeak]

I don't understand some of the thinking here.

Is an OL player "damaged for life" if he underperforms? Like a QB that gets sacked 10 times per game can have their career ruined.

Maybe I am missing something but I just don't see that with OL players

So assuming it isn't so.........why do we care about the experience he has (which by the way isn't increasing sitting on the bench). Isn't the best OL player the one we should start regardless of experience?

 

[Rocket]

Kids.
Try looking up the word sarcasm sometime. :roll:

I propose we make up a new word - the Sarcass.
Complete meaning pending...

 

[LudwigsDrummer]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/hawkblogger/status/922305292813004800[/tweet]

Pocic did great. As a matter of fact, he was perfect in pass blocking. I remember him getting to the 2ND level on the screen pass and pancacking his defender. Due to Rawl's stupidity, he overran the blockers. Otherwise it would have been an ever longer gain. Why he was sitting on the bench can't be explained.

He was sitting on the bench because he's the only backup center.

Bull. That is a Cable choice to not start him and elevate Hunt from the practice squad to hold down the bench.

You don't think Pete calls the shot on who starts?

 

[Seymour]

Sarcasm is always hard to deterimine in print form, especially on a site known for rash judgement and negative hyperbole. My apologies.

No problem. You weren't the only one that took it literally. I will try to be more obvious in the future.

 

[Seymour]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/hawkblogger/status/922305292813004800[/tweet]

Pocic did great. As a matter of fact, he was perfect in pass blocking. I remember him getting to the 2ND level on the screen pass and pancacking his defender. Due to Rawl's stupidity, he overran the blockers. Otherwise it would have been an ever longer gain. Why he was sitting on the bench can't be explained.

He was sitting on the bench because he's the only backup center.

Bull. That is a Cable choice to not start him and elevate Hunt from the practice squad to hold down the bench.

You don't think Pete calls the shot on who starts?

Ultimately, no I sure don't. I would imagine Pete has discussions with Cable about it and they try to come to an agreement if they differ, but in the end you cannot function well as a team to have one guy making the line calls, substitutions, teaching and film study.... ect, and another naming the starters.

When we drafted Ifedi Pete 1st came out and named him as a tackle when they introduced him. Days later he all the sudden was a guard. That is Cable intervening right there.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Isn't the best OL player the one we should start regardless of experience?

Amen

 

[scutterhawk]

This would make sense if its how they tend to do business but its not. They've had zero problems throwing people out there with little to no experience so making a guy who actually played the position in college for 5 years sit to "learn the position" doesn't make a ton of sense although nothing they've done on the line has made a ton of sense. They've absolutely nailed just about everywhere else but have struggled evaluating this position group.

This^^

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

If you're referring to the "why did we draft Pocic" thread, that thread was about how stupid it was to draft a player like Pocic if we weren't going to play him. That sentiment was only strengthened by a solid performance.

Exactly.
That is my issue with the subject also. I liked the pick, and have only questioned the position to keep one of your better players on the bench. Seems like we are making him pay the price for Ifedi being a v e r y slow learner, with v e r y slow feet.

So let me get this straight.

The coaches, who have decades developing players, opt to go slow with Pocic because they think that'll benefit him.

And then in his first action, he plays well.

And you're assumption is that the coaches did something wrong? So basically even when they succeed, you can bastardize that reality into abject failure?

One couldn't possibly make the case that the coaches were sincere when they said they didn't want to go young again because of their experience last year. And that resisting the urge to play a guy too early can have the intended/expected benefit.

The only conclusion I can reach, is that you two basically think that Pocic was this good the moment his name was called. That he couldn't possibly have gotten any better during training camp And who needs to see anything in practice? I mean that's overrated too. Quite clearly Carroll and Cable wanted to intentionally sabotage our season and spite you two guys by making Pocic ride pine.

Honestly, I hope that they continue to ease Pocic in. Quite clearly, they decided to really break their mold in OL development. We selected a player that wasn't really the prototype we had been choosing. And then we didn't just give a sideways grin and a wink to the notion of developing him and aren't forcing him to play before he's ready. And right now in a limited sample, it looks like this process has improved the quality greatly.

Of course Pocic could have been our 2nd/3rd best player by the end of preseason. Although frankly he didn't look like it in really any fashion. So I would be skeptical of the claims that we wasted the pick by not playing him. Right now this different process is producing different results. Better results.

I'm more inclined to applaud how the different approach has turned out thus far. Instead of pillory them for it.

 

[Seymour]

If you're referring to the "why did we draft Pocic" thread, that thread was about how stupid it was to draft a player like Pocic if we weren't going to play him. That sentiment was only strengthened by a solid performance.

Exactly.
That is my issue with the subject also. I liked the pick, and have only questioned the position to keep one of your better players on the bench. Seems like we are making him pay the price for Ifedi being a v e r y slow learner, with v e r y slow feet.

So let me get this straight.

The coaches, who have decades developing players, opt to go slow with Pocic because they think that'll benefit him.

And then in his first action, he plays well.

And you're assumption is that the coaches did something wrong? So basically even when they succeed, you can bastardize that reality into abject failure?

One couldn't possibly make the case that the coaches were sincere when they said they didn't want to go young again because of their experience last year. And that resisting the urge to play a guy too early can have the intended/expected benefit.

The only conclusion I can reach, is that you two basically think that Pocic was this good the moment his name was called. That he couldn't possibly have gotten any better during training camp And who needs to see anything in practice? I mean that's overrated too. Quite clearly Carroll and Cable wanted to intentionally sabotage our season and spite you two guys by making Pocic ride pine.

Honestly, I hope that they continue to ease Pocic in. Quite clearly, they decided to really break their mold in OL development. We selected a player that wasn't really the prototype we had been choosing. And then we didn't just give a sideways grin and a wink to the notion of developing him and aren't forcing him to play before he's ready. And right now in a limited sample, it looks like this process has improved the quality greatly.

Of course Pocic could have been our 2nd/3rd best player by the end of preseason. Although frankly he didn't look like it in really any fashion. So I would be skeptical of the claims that we wasted the pick by not playing him. Right now this different process is producing different results. Better results.

I'm more inclined to applaud how the different approach has turned out thus far. Instead of pillory them for it.

Yes. Because he is only finally playing now because of injury. What does that tell you?
Also, there is a long history here of very poor talent evaluation that plays into this.

Don't have time to go into all the other stuff, and to be honest I almost didn't read this post because of the "let me get this straight" antagonism.

 

[hawk45]

...

One couldn't possibly make the case that the coaches were sincere when they said they didn't want to go young again because of their experience last year. And that resisting the urge to play a guy too early can have the intended/expected benefit.

...

Honestly, I hope that they continue to ease Pocic in. Quite clearly, they decided to really break their mold in OL development.

But the coaches didn't use \inexperience as the reason for not playing Pocic. That was fans attempting to come up with a reasonable explanation for why he wasn't in there. The reason given by Cable was that we didn't dare play a promising young player on our train wreck of an OL because he's the...backup center.

WRT "breaking their mold":

Old mold: draft players who haven't played the position before and throw them right in
New mold: finally draft a polished player and...choose this player to bring along slowly when we need OL help now

Of course fans are going be a bit irritated by this and question the approach. The excitement around the draft was that the FO was getting it by drafting a guy who was ready on day 1.

I'm not even saying waiting on Pocic is for certain the wrong move. It's just that given the history and the juxtaposition with how they usually treat far less polished players, it's more than reasonable to wonder if this is yet one more example of them not knowing what they are doing.

Hopefully it's academic now that he has cracked the starting lineup. If he continues to play well he could get 4 or 5 weeks in before they have to make a decision to put Joeckel back in or not. If he can outperform Joeckel regularly he stays, and no terrible harm done because while Joeckel is ridiculous for 8M, at least he wasn't the worst lineman on our team.

 

[Ad Hawk]

I'm not even saying waiting on Pocic is for certain the wrong move. It's just that given the history and the juxtaposition with how they usually treat far less polished players, it's more than reasonable to wonder if this is yet one more example of them not knowing what they are doing.

This is very true. The wondering is part of the fan experience. Pocic has a huge upside, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to hold him back a bit. Maybe the experience he needs isn't just strength/leverage or snaps, but the playbook. Do fans really have any idea? Nope. O-line talent eval hasn't been all good or all bad. There's a much bigger picture than one or the other.

Sadly, what often appears in many posts are statements of absolute surety about what we should be doing or what the coaches are specifically doing wrong; such arrogance from a position of relative ignorance is something to behold, but not at all enjoyable since it contributes nothing to discussion because it leaves little room for others to disagree politely.