Rotoworld GM rankings

[Sports Hernia]

Criticism of Baalke cracks me up. How has Schneider done the last couple years?

Ummm, Marvin, JS's team has won a Super Bowl and if it were not for a bonehead play call by his OC would have won 2 in a row.

That is what JS done.

Spin away..........

That's great. Has ZERO to do with the point I was making, but have fun with it.

...and don't talk to me about boneheaded calls costing a SB.

If it has nothing to do with your point then why was it IN your post???? :roll:

As for bonehead calls costing teams Super Bowls........... Touché! :lol:

 

[RichNhansom]

Marvin what Core players would you say that Baalke has drafted?

I think that is the key here. Baalke took over a team loaded with core players. Ones capable of taking a team to a super bowl. Many of them are now gone and are being replaced with guys that Baalke didn't feel were important enough to make sure they were retained.

As for the 2011 draft and McLoughan, (SP) you can't just dismiss McLouhan as being a drunk. If so then why did they wait until just before the draft to release him? Also saying the he faxed his draft sheet to Ballke? Do you think he kept his information a secret and then just took his notes and left when he was fired? You can bet they were all working together getting ready for the draft and McLouhan likely had much influence on the draft board created for that draft. We don't know for sure how much but obviously some so all you can really do is look at his work from that point forward and I ask you again, what core players has Baalke drafted? I don't see any.

 

[Jville]

Wasn't Scot McCloughan also the target of a whisper campaign before he was eventually (axed) subjected to a "mutual parting of the ways" ?

Hasn't there been an alternating series of general managers and head coaches that have "mutually departed"?

Anybody want to speculate on who might be next and how long it will be before the next whisper campaign begins?

 

[rideaducati]

Wasn't Scot McCloughan also the target of a whisper campaign before he was eventually (axed) subjected to a "mutual parting of the ways" ?

Hasn't there been an alternating series of general managers and head coaches that have "mutually departed"?

Anybody want to speculate on who might be next and how long it will be before the next whisper campaign begins?

When Baalke's team fails to reach the playoffs, there won't be a whisper campaign to get rid of him. A lot of Baalke's luster has already worn off and it looks as if it's going to get worse for him.

 

[Popeyejones]

Wasn't Scot McCloughan also the target of a whisper campaign before he was eventually (axed) subjected to a "mutual parting of the ways" ?

Hasn't there been an alternating series of general managers and head coaches that have "mutually departed"?

Anybody want to speculate on who might be next and how long it will be before the next whisper campaign begins?

No. Absolutely. Not at all. People were totally blindsided by it.

One of the the reasons that it's kinda funny to read what seems to be the common Hawks fan narrative of all of this is you guys don't really know the timeline.

Scot McGloughan was the 49ers GM for two drafts, 2008 and 2009.

In those drafts the team had 13 picks, and Michael Crabtree was the only starter drafted. Scot's 2008 draft was as bad as Baalke's 2012 draft. You guys can look at McGloughan's two drafts as GM here: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... /draft.htm

You guys created teh McGloughan-as-true-genius and Baalk-as-rube narrative back when Scot was with the Hawks as a way to be self-congratulatory, but it never made any sense in the first place because Scot's two drafts as GM with the 9ers sucked horribly. He's not even with the Hawks anymore, so you guys can probably stop doing this now.

In any case:

Beginning of March 2010: About three weeks after the Super Bowl, Scott Mccloughan went into rehab, and Baalke took over GM and draft preparation duties, which he never relinquished because Mccloughan never recovered (he got out of rehab, and within a couple days was back to drinking and not showing up to work, at which point he parted ways with the 9ers).

March 19 2010: It's announced that McCloughan and the 49ers have parted ways for non-football related reasons. What those reasons were -- alcoholism -- were never actually reported on until Scot's tell-all this summer. I first heard about them from other fans in 2012 or so. There was no whisper campaign. That it happened got reported, but the reasons were never reported. Because nobody knew anything, it was all pretty confusing, TBH.


April 22 2010: Baalke has been the defacto GM throughout the off-season, and runs the draft. It's also worth pointing out that Baalke officially for several years now has been Director of Player Personnel; his PRIMARY job was director of all college scouting.

Put simply, to believe that the 2010 draft didn't result from Baalke's scouting and player evaluations (that was his official job) or that he didn't construct the draft board (what EVERY team is doing through March and April; while Scot was in rehab, not showing up to work for one week after rehab, and then officially dismissed for the month before the draft) or run the draft (which even you guys don't try to argue) is pure fantasy. It just has no basis in reality.

 

[Popeyejones]

Christine Michael is behind Lynch but has flashed as much as Hyde.

LOL. He's two years into his career and still regularly doesn't even suit up on game days. C'mon dude.

If you want a comparison for Michael so far, how about this one:

Two Years in:

PLAYER 1:

*2nd rounder, 61st pick in the draft.
*Suited up for 14 of 32 games
*44 touches for 239 yards
*0 Touchdowns

PLAYER 2:

2nd rounder, 62nd pick in the draft.
*Suited up for 14 of 32 games
* 53 touches for 266 yards
*0 Touchdowns


Player 2 is Christine Michael. Player 1 is LaMichael James.

You could basically combine them into LaMichael Michael at this point in their careers and not change a thing.

 

[Marvin49]

Criticism of Baalke cracks me up. How has Schneider done the last couple years?

Ummm, Marvin, JS's team has won a Super Bowl and if it were not for a bonehead play call by his OC would have won 2 in a row.

That is what JS done.

Spin away..........

That's great. Has ZERO to do with the point I was making, but have fun with it.

...and don't talk to me about boneheaded calls costing a SB.

If it has nothing to do with your point then why was it IN your post???? :roll:

As for bonehead calls costing teams Super Bowls........... Touché! :lol:

My point wasn't that he was a bad GM. My point was despite the fact that he hasn't drafted a superstar in the last two years and made the Harvin trade he is STILL one of the best in the business.

 

[Marvin49]

Marvin what Core players would you say that Baalke has drafted?

I think that is the key here. Baalke took over a team loaded with core players. Ones capable of taking a team to a super bowl. Many of them are now gone and are being replaced with guys that Baalke didn't feel were important enough to make sure they were retained.

As for the 2011 draft and McLoughan, (SP) you can't just dismiss McLouhan as being a drunk. If so then why did they wait until just before the draft to release him? Also saying the he faxed his draft sheet to Ballke? Do you think he kept his information a secret and then just took his notes and left when he was fired? You can bet they were all working together getting ready for the draft and McLouhan likely had much influence on the draft board created for that draft. We don't know for sure how much but obviously some so all you can really do is look at his work from that point forward and I ask you again, what core players has Baalke drafted? I don't see any.

A few things here...

Core players brought in by Baalke? Some of these guys are gone now but they played well in SF and got big contracts elsewhere.

Draft: Aldon Smith. Mike Iupati. Anthony Davis. Navorro Bowman. Eric Reid. Colin Kaepernick.

Trade: Anquan Boldin.

FA: Donte Whitner. Antoine Bethea.

And there are many more.


Did Baalke inherit a good roster? Of course he did. Nobody would argue otherwise, but he added several very good pieces and has several young players on the roster right now who are going to get a shot now that some of the older players are gone. Now we get to see just how good he is.

You did it again BTW. Again...2011 was Baalkes SECOND draft. Not his first. Baalke took over before the 2010 draft, not 2011. He was named GM in 2011, but he was the interim GM after Scot was fired in 2010. As Popeye said, Baalke was director of college scouting before that and largely BUILT the draft board.

Peeps always want to attribute Baalke success to Scot simply because they are looking for a reason to disparage Baalke. I mean seriously, Scots alcoholism was so bad that he was fired just months before the draft. You really think that happens if he were an integral piece in the draft process. Rumors that have come out since stated that he didn't show for combine meetings or showed up drink. Dude was a mess.

I say all this as a fan of Scot BTW. If he stays away from the sauce, I think he'll be great in Washington. However, while everyone loves to call him the sole architect of the 49ers and slam Baalke as a pretender, Scot drafted Alex Smith #1 overall. He took Manny Lawson in round 1. He took Kentwan Balmer in round 1. He took Michael Crabtree in round 1 (tho I actually liked Crab.,..just never panned out as hoped).

Yes, he also drafted Gore, Vernon, Staley, and Willis...but my point is that nobody gets it right 100% of the time.

My point about faxing (and I actuallyu said Zeroxed) was that peeps always make that argument that Baalke doesn't get any credit for a draft in which he was the director of college scouting and made all the decisions on draft day...well, all bu one that is. Sing pounded the table for Taylor Mays. Sigh. Baalke wanted Nate Allen who went just a few picks earlier.

 

[Popeyejones]

Sing pounded the table for Taylor Mays. Sigh. Baalke wanted Nate Allen who went just a few picks earlier.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I remember watching the live draft feed of the 9ers war room when that happened. Didn't Baalke throw his papers in frustration or something right when the Eagles drafted Allen?

I should say too that although Scot M. absolutely tanked his two drafts as 49ers GM (and there's just no way to argue around that), I like him too, and still do.

 

[Marvin49]

Wasn't Scot McCloughan also the target of a whisper campaign before he was eventually (axed) subjected to a "mutual parting of the ways" ?

Hasn't there been an alternating series of general managers and head coaches that have "mutually departed"?

Anybody want to speculate on who might be next and how long it will be before the next whisper campaign begins?

No. Absolutely. Not at all. People were totally blindsided by it.

One of the the reasons that it's kinda funny to read what seems to be the common Hawks fan narrative of all of this is you guys don't really know the timeline.

Scot McGloughan was the 49ers GM for two drafts, 2008 and 2009.

In those drafts the team had 13 picks, and Michael Crabtree was the only starter drafted. Scot's 2008 draft was as bad as Baalke's 2012 draft. You guys can look at McGloughan's two drafts as GM here: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... /draft.htm

You guys created teh McGloughan-as-true-genius and Baalk-as-rube narrative back when Scot was with the Hawks as a way to be self-congratulatory, but it never made any sense in the first place because Scot's two drafts as GM with the 9ers sucked horribly. He's not even with the Hawks anymore, so you guys can probably stop doing this now.

In any case:

Beginning of March 2010: About three weeks after the Super Bowl, Scott Mccloughan went into rehab, and Baalke took over GM and draft preparation duties, which he never relinquished because Mccloughan never recovered (he got out of rehab, and within a couple days was back to drinking and not showing up to work, at which point he parted ways with the 9ers).

March 19 2010: It's announced that McCloughan and the 49ers have parted ways for non-football related reasons. What those reasons were -- alcoholism -- were never actually reported on until Scot's tell-all this summer. I first heard about them from other fans in 2012 or so. There was no whisper campaign. That it happened got reported, but the reasons were never reported. Because nobody knew anything, it was all pretty confusing, TBH.


April 22 2010: Baalke has been the defacto GM throughout the off-season, and runs the draft. It's also worth pointing out that Baalke officially for several years now has been Director of Player Personnel; his PRIMARY job was director of all college scouting.

Put simply, to believe that the 2010 draft didn't result from Baalke's scouting and player evaluations (that was his official job) or that he didn't construct the draft board (what EVERY team is doing through March and April; while Scot was in rehab, not showing up to work for one week after rehab, and then officially dismissed for the month before the draft) or run the draft (which even you guys don't try to argue) is pure fantasy. It just has no basis in reality.

Well, to be fair, while he wasn't the official GM, he'd been running the draft since 2005.

 

[Marvin49]

Sing pounded the table for Taylor Mays. Sigh. Baalke wanted Nate Allen who went just a few picks earlier.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I remember watching the live draft feed of the 9ers war room when that happened. Didn't Baalke throw his papers in frustration or something right when the Eagles drafted Allen?

I should say too that although Scot M. absolutely tanked his two drafts as 49ers GM (and there's just no way to argue around that), I like him too, and still do.

Ya.

I remember being on the 'zone and everyone was talking about how it was pretty clear that Baalke wasn't all too happy with the pick.

Kinda cemented when he traded Mays for a 7 after Sing was fired.

 

[Popeyejones]

Well, to be fair, while he wasn't the official GM, he'd been running the draft since 2005.

Well, I mean, it really comes down to being consistent in who we're going to give credit to.

If we're giving credit for the draft to the person who has the final say:

2005-2007: the credit goes to Mike Nolan, who was the defacto GM and answered to nobody (Scot answered to him).

2008-2009: Scot was the GM, and answered to nobody (Baalke answered to him).

2010-Present: Baalke is the GM and answers to nobody (Gamble, then Joel Patten, and now Gamble again answer to him).


It's why I think part of Hawks' fans obsession with the Scot narrative ISN'T simply disparaging Baalke. Although no longer applicable it was also self-congratulatory and emerged when Scot was with the Hawks before he fell off the wagon again.

Basically the point is even in the wildly most generous read of the timelines, you can't give Scot credit for 2005-2007 and not give Baalke credit for 2010. It's just illogical.

That Scot absolutely tanked his two drafts as the GM is one of those things that has gotten lost down the memory hole (as has also already started to happen with Harbaugh going 8-8 last year :lol

 

[Popeyejones]

It's a little askew of the topic so I'll put this in a different post, but also maybe worth saying:

For two reasons I find the whole line of argumentation about GMs and draft outcomes to be pretty bogus to begin with:

1) There's also going to be a major element of BS when you attribute the collective work of many to a single individual. Just as many of the things we attribute to a President could just as easily be attributed to members of his cabinet and much of what we attribute to a film director should more accurately be attributed to editors, actors, script writers, and casting directors, pretending that there are individual geniuses who we can attribute credit and blame to for draft outcomes is a wild oversimplification that's pretty divorced from reality.

2) Anyone who pretends that at the end of the day the draft isn't essentially a crap shoot is basically full of it. It's not that Schneider went from being a downright genius in 2012 to a downright fool in 2013, it's just that in the random draw of the draft he came up almost as well as anyone in the last decade in 2012, and almost as poorly as anyone in the last decade in 2013.

As a matter of routine when preparing draft boards every GM groups players into equivalent prospect levels, and that these players don't END UP being of equivalent contribution levels is just as true. In terms of outcomes for players selected, so much of it just luck.

Instead, when evaluating GMs we should be evaluating them on how well they MANIPULATE the draft board rather on what the players they come away with end up doing. It's why a guy like Belichick is best in class, even though over the last decade he's ended up more often on the unlucky side than the lucky side for player outcomes. He simply manipulates the draft better than anybody.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

1) There's also going to be a major element of BS when you attribute the collective work of many to a single individual. Just as many of the things we attribute to a President could just as easily be attributed to members of his cabinet and much of what we attribute to a film director should more accurately be attributed to editors, actors, script writers, and casting directors, pretending that there are individual geniuses who we can attribute credit and blame to for draft outcomes is a wild oversimplification that's pretty divorced from reality. .

The author admits this, but still has to name one person for the sake of the article.

For the sake of this list, we’ll consider the “general manager” to be whomever is believed to have the biggest role in shaping a team’s 53-man roster. For some — say Jeff Fisher to Les Snead — co-conspirators are mentioned in the write-up..

IMO Pete has final say on everything, but Schneider is the one scouting, researching and compiling............. so for the sake of this list? It's JS.

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^^ For sure, with "for the sake" of the article being the key phrase. The author is admitting that his premise is basically BS.

(and yeah, I'm a persnickety jerk: that throughout the article he shifts back and forth from evaluating drafts based on activity to outcomes also makes it an exercise in futility, IMO).

 

[Marvin49]

^^^^ For sure, with "for the sake" of the article being the key phrase. The author is admitting that his premise is basically BS.

(and yeah, I'm a persnickety jerk: that throughout the article he shifts back and forth from evaluating drafts based on activity to outcomes also makes it an exercise in futility, IMO).

...and then drops Baalke 13 spots from last year based on Harbaugh being fired.

 

[hawknation2015]

Ward and Martin looked terrible last year. Not sure what games Marvin was watching.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

^^^^ For sure, with "for the sake" of the article being the key phrase. The author is admitting that his premise is basically BS.

(and yeah, I'm a persnickety jerk: that throughout the article he shifts back and forth from evaluating drafts based on activity to outcomes also makes it an exercise in futility, IMO).

Life would be much easier for you if you came over to my side of the list fence.

Sports lists IMO are nothing more than clickbait in order to piss off most fans who think their <insert player, coach, GM, stadium, fanbase, city, cheerleaders, ballboys, dude who mows the grass> are better than others.

But we love our lists, and hack internet site writers know that.

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^^ We don't disagree about why they're written, although I'm pretty cool over here on my side of the fence, thank you.

I've never gone to bed at the end of the day and regretted not having read enough listicles.

 

[Marvin49]

Ward and Martin looked terrible last year. Not sure what games Marvin was watching.

Ward struggled early but was playing better before he got hurt. In particular he struggled when Chicago put a 6'4" Brandon Marshall in the slot against him. ROUGH night for the rookie....and makes ya kinda wonder why he was in there against Marshall when they had a 6'2" rookie corner in Dontae Johnson sitting on the bench (who will probably compete to be a starter this year). Ward was getting better though before he got hurt and he was making a position change. He was a FS in college and will probably eventually end up back there again in a few years.

Martin got hurt in preseason and was up and down when he was playing. He had to play because Kilgore broke his ankle vs Denver. HGe'll compete both at Center with Kilgore and probably at guard with Brandon Thomas to replace Iupati.

I'm not saying either guy will be great or even good, but they'll both get opportunities this year.