Russ benched

[keasley45]

Uh ohhhhhh

Exactly. All the talk about how can it be that Russ is benched when other qbs with 'lesser stats' than the few he can be proud of aren't is silly.

Russ is doing what Russ has always done, without the safety net of his improv act to protect him. And his improv had proven to have been solved and unsustainable.

 

[renofox]

Uh ohhhhhh

Sounds like exactly what the LOB was dealing with 10 years ago. Except they had a coach that ordered them to "Leave Russ Alone!!!"

 

[DarkVictory23]

That was lots of words. To summarize for the lazy reader:

Geno good, Russ bad.

Actually, I think the better summary might be: Geno average, Russ also average... but Geno performing 'average' is outperforming his run game and offensive line. Russ's average comes from unsustainable improvisation that comes at the detriment of his team's offensive rhythm.

It's two entirely different ways of reaching average.

And last year, Geno was just outside of the top 5 QBs in the league and Russ was probably the worst day 1 starter. Those are where those 2 guys are coming from as starters for their respective teams. (We won't even talk about the relative cost of their contracts.)

 

[keasley45]

Actually, I think the better summary might be: Geno average, Russ also average... but Geno performing 'average' is outperforming his run game and offensive line. Russ's average comes from unsustainable improvisation that comes at the detriment of his team's offensive rhythm.

It's two entirely different ways of reaching average.

And last year, Geno was just outside of the top 5 QBs in the league and Russ was probably the worst day 1 starter. Those are where those 2 guys are coming from as starters for their respective teams. (We won't even talk about the relative cost of their contracts.)

There are virtually no stand alone stats Geno is consistently bottom 1/3rd on. There are many that Russ is bottom 1/3rd on. Calling him average would be by virtue of his completion percentage and TDs. But whrn you factor in how many TDs he gained on a short field and the fact that his difficulty factor on throws to checkdoen outlets in soft coverage is so high, he's squarely performing at a below average level.



Like I said, no qb has the extreme swing in good / bad performance along his stat line that Russ does and there's a good reason for it.

 

[GemCity]

I just cannot like a person that says publicly that he wants to be in Seattle, then waives his "no trade" clause behind the sceens, and forces the team to trade him. I'm calling RW a liar. This is the town that made him, and he stabbed us in the back. Shame on him!

This!!

 

[keasley45]

So stats are basically useless in telling the story. Cool. I expect you and everybody else to not bother posting anymore. Deal?

No. Touting three statistical categories and calling player great because of them is useless. Looking at stats comprehensively and actually having the curiosity to wonder why a qb with such solid numbers in certain categories is literally bottom 1/3rd in so many others, or why a qb has such an extreme variation in QBR (most in the league) is useful.

Most any metric that factors in Russ's complete performance across a range of categories places him at best middle of the pack. At worst, 22nd or so. And his QBR is boosted by his high TD number, which was boosted.

A great example came against the Chiefs where russ started something like 3 for 9 but had 2 tds because Denver turned the ball over deep on KC territory. When he's completing 33 percent of his passes, is that supposed to be applauded?

 

[pittpnthrs]

No. Touting three statistical categories and calling player great because of them is useless. Looking at stats comprehensively and actually having the curiosity to wonder why a qb with such solid numbers in certain categories is literally bottom 1/3rd in so many others, or why a qb has such an extreme variation in QBR (most in the league) is useful.

Most any metric that factors in Russ's complete performance across a range of categories places him at best middle of the pack. At worst, 22nd or so. And his QBR is boosted by his high TD number, which was boosted.

A great example came against the Chiefs where russ started something like 3 for 9 but had 2 tds because Denver turned the ball over deep on KC territory. When he's completing 33 percent of his passes, is that supposed to be applauded?

Well you can't use stats only when it helps your cause. The fact is Wilson has better stats than Geno in almost every category. A QBR rating being boosted because of certain situations is nothing more than an excuse. Each team has certain situations every week and either the QB takes advantage of it or they don't. You bring up instances and ask if we're supposed to applaud that. How about a season worth of stats. Are we supposed to applaud Geno's lackluster stats?

 

[keasley45]

Well you can't use stats only when it helps your cause. The fact is Wilson has better stats than Geno in almost every category. A QBR rating being boosted because of certain situations is nothing more than an excuse. Each team has certain situations every week and either the QB takes advantage of it or they don't. You bring up instances and ask if we're supposed to applaud that. How about a season worth of stats. Are we supposed to applaud Geno's lackluster stats?

Pitt, it's called research. Not excuse making. And I just posted stats that show that Russ doesn't have better stats than Geno. It's the other way around. He had a better completion percentage and more TDs fewer INTs. The rest... look up where he ranks yourself.

It's cool though. Posts like the recent one on Twitter that reveal his teammates have been talking about how poorly he's playing for weeks and thought he'd be benched sooner speak more truth than anyone needs. Or are they cherrypicking too?


And I've posted game stills, comprehensive stats studies, etc all in an effort to show the complete picture of the dude. And, from a few, it still is called cherry picking. I coukd understand that if he was lights out killing it and actually carrying a team week in and out.

But he's a player who his FO tried to trade in 2019, whose game was completely solved in 2020, who's game collapsed in 2021 then finally was traded did in 2022. He put up horrible stats last yea r to the degree his coach was fired, and has led an average at best offense this year. And he just got benched.

With a track record like that, it's silly to call finding the troubling stats cherry picking.

 

[toffee]

Exactly. All the talk about how can it be that Russ is benched when other qbs with 'lesser stats' than the few he can be proud of aren't is silly.

Russ is doing what Russ has always done, without the safety net of his improv act to protect him. And his improv had proven to have been solved and unsustainable.

Angry Doug felt their pain

 

[pittpnthrs]

Pitt, it's called research. Not excuse making. And I just posted stats that show that Russ doesn't have better stats than Geno. It's the other way around. He had a better completion percentage and more TDs fewer INTs. The rest... look up where he ranks yourself.

It's cool though. Posts like the recent one on Twitter that reveal his teammates have been talking about how poorly he's playing for weeks and thought he'd be benched sooner speak more truth than anyone needs. Or are they cherrypicking too?

I just saw a comparison of the two and Wilson led in every category but a couple. I'll try to find the link again.

Nobody claimed Wilson was playing good recently, but if a QB gets benched thats better than your own QB for the season, what does that say about your QB. That's all I was saying.

 

[keasley45]

I just saw a comparison of the two and Wilson led in every category but a couple. I'll try to find the link again.

Nobody claimed Wilson was playing good recently, but if a QB gets benched thats better than your own QB for the season, what does that say about your QB. That's all I was saying.

When you look at all the stats and the one stat that summarizes them all (qbr), it doesn't say much.

And I just posted a comparison of the 2, a couple of them.

Qbr, pass success rate, Yards per attempt, yards per catch. You can add sacks, self inflicted sacks, sack percentage, pass yards per game, 1st down passing, longest pass, net yards per pass attempt, and adjusted net yards per attempt. Those are the stats Geno is better than Russ at

Russ is better in:

Completion percentage, TD / Ints, int rate, passer rating and adjusted yards per attempt ( factors heavily TDs and INTs)

And if you want a quantifiable measure of all of them combined that actually heavily weights Tds to ints, the adjusted net yards stat is the one to look at. It weights TDs heavily, and punishes INts. And even in that stat, factoring in what Russ did best, Geno still ranks better.

2023 NFL Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2023 NFL Passing Stats and more on Pro-football-reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[knownone]

I’m using this site which a ton of stat/film guys site as where they go to. Link is in the corner. But I also use the eyeball test. I don’t think many people have watched a whole lot of Russ games based on some of the takes that keep getting repeated in here. Not singling anyone out or being a jerk but it’s obvious because some of these narratives are just flat out wrong. Russ is limited in a conventional offense sense for sure but stuff gets great exaggerated at times too

View attachment 62865

That's what I figured. I've used RBSDM for a while. I am still trying to determine why their EPA numbers differ from ESPN and other sources.

Honestly, the bottom 6 to 8 narrative is a bit exaggerated. But I've probably watched half the Broncos games this season, and Russ is undoubtedly not a good quarterback. ESPN has an EPA-derived stat called PAA, Points Above Average, which is how many total points the QB adds relative to the league average. Russell's PAA is 0. He's not adding anything.

 

[keasley45]

That's what I figured. I've used RBSDM for a while. I am still trying to determine why their EPA numbers differ from ESPN and other sources.

Honestly, the bottom 6 to 8 narrative is a bit exaggerated. But I've probably watched half the Broncos games this season, and Russ is undoubtedly not a good quarterback. ESPN has an EPA-derived stat called PAA, Points Above Average, which is how many total points the QB adds relative to the league average. Russell's PAA is 0. He's not adding anything.

If you are quoting my reference of bottom 6 to 8, I was referring to Russ and the Denver offense and quoted specifically the stats that had them at bottom 6 to 8. I was quoting the results of their performance.

And agree that Russ is adding nothing, (which is why he was benched) despite the stellar com percentage and TDs to int.

 

[RiverDog]

It sounds like the player's union was threatening legal action if the Broncos benched Russell in order get him to remove the injury clause in his contract:

It has come to our attention that the Denver Broncos recently informed Mr. Wilson and his Certified Contract Advisor that if Mr. Wilson would not renegotiate his Player Contract to relinquish certain salary guarantees, the Broncos would remove him from the starting lineup.

If the Broncos follow-through on the Club’s threat, the Club will violate, among other things, the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Mr. Wilson’s Player Contract and New York law. And, we are particularly concerned that the Broncos still intend to commit these violations under the guise of ‘coaching decisions.’

NFLPA says Broncos’ threat to Russell Wilson was illegal and violated CBA

The Broncos threatened to bench Russell Wilson if he didn't change his contract. The NFLPA said that would violate New York law and the CBA.

sports.yahoo.com

But at this point, it seems like they'd have a helluva tough chore to prove that his current benching wasn't football related even though we all know that it was.

 

[knownone]

If you are quoting my reference of bottom 6 to 8, I was referring to Russ and the Denver offense and quoted specifically the stats that had them at bottom 6 to 8. I was quoting the results of their performance.

And agree that Russ is adding nothing, (which is why he was benched) despite the stellar com percentage and TDs to int.

I was just referencing what PNW mentioned in his previous post. I hadn't read all of the prior comments to get a full sense of the context.

 

[Cyrus12]

Well Stidham looked better for Broncos than the other guy they had. I'm sure Russ was hoping they'd flop....

 

[Ozzy]

All this talk about his character is goofy. Hate him for leaving or being selfish or whatever but calling him stupid by kicking his IQ or calling him a bad human over football is why i defend him. Read this quote form Stidham

https://x.com/zacstevensdnvr/status/1741661742801756477?s=46

 

[OrangeGravy]

Well you can't use stats only when it helps your cause. The fact is Wilson has better stats than Geno in almost every category. A QBR rating being boosted because of certain situations is nothing more than an excuse. Each team has certain situations every week and either the QB takes advantage of it or they don't. You bring up instances and ask if we're supposed to applaud that. How about a season worth of stats. Are we supposed to applaud Geno's lackluster stats?

Haha. You get dumber by the post. I didn't think that was possible

 

[OrangeGravy]

All this talk about his character is goofy. Hate him for leaving or being selfish or whatever but calling him stupid by kicking his IQ or calling him a bad human over football is why i defend him. Read this quote form Stidham

https://x.com/zacstevensdnvr/status/1741661742801756477?s=46

Hes a bad human. Him being a bad QB is a separate issue

 

[Torc]

If the Broncos follow-through on the Club’s threat, the Club will violate, among other things, the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Mr. Wilson’s Player Contract and New York law. And, we are particularly concerned that the Broncos still intend to commit these violations under the guise of ‘coaching decisions.’


But at this point, it seems like they'd have a helluva tough chore to prove that his current benching wasn't football related even though we all know that it was.

I'd really like to know what in the collective bargaining agreement or in New York law (not sure why that's applicable to the DENVER Broncos, maybe because the NFL is based in NY?) guarantees a player a starting position. So if Pete sits DK because he had too many penalties the week before, he's violating the CBA? Serious question.