Russell Wilson "fine without Tate" links add to Unger interv

[Pandion Haliaetus]

I agree with the folks saying we're going to miss Tate the most on ST's.

We don't even have a proven punt returner to replace him. As for the WR aspect, I think Norwood will get his share of jump balls this year.

Personally, I think Harvin will produce more consistently. Norwood has a ton of potential and so far in camp is producing. Kearse should get better. So far in TC, Baldwin has looked on fire. Richardson brings a vertical element we didn't have last year.

I like our WR situation a ton more this year than last year.

Weird, it seemed pretty much to me that Tate wasn't a proven PR until last year.

Also, punt returning doesn't matter if the offense ends up being better than it was last year. And it seems that it could be with more explosive WRs, a stronger RB group, and a healthier, stronger O-Line. Plus, experience, experience, experience for the youngest offense last year on a age per snap basis.

 

[Throwdown]

I don't see Tate as that big of a loss. If we had lost Baldwin though I'd still be lamenting it though.

 

[MarylandHawk]

Without Tate we don't win the Rams Monday Night game. I don't believe any other player we have would have adjusted to that pass and made that play.

I think we'll be fine, but I just hope we don't run into any more situations like that where Tate would be the only guy to step up.

He did disappear a lot, which makes me think we won't miss him. But then I watch highlights from last year and there were times he would show up and make a catch that I don't think anyone else would have made. And it makes me nervous.

I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but I hate when people cherry pick one game and say "Without ____, blah blah...." Without Kearse, we don't win at Carolina and we don't win the NFCCG. So it could be argued....or maybe someone else would have stepped up and made a play. It's all hypothetical.

 

[Vetamur]

Without Tate we don't win the Rams Monday Night game. I don't believe any other player we have would have adjusted to that pass and made that play.

I think we'll be fine, but I just hope we don't run into any more situations like that where Tate would be the only guy to step up.

He did disappear a lot, which makes me think we won't miss him. But then I watch highlights from last year and there were times he would show up and make a catch that I don't think anyone else would have made. And it makes me nervous.

I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but I hate when people cherry pick one game and say "Without ____, blah blah...." Without Kearse, we don't win at Carolina and we don't win the NFCCG. So it could be argued....or maybe someone else would have stepped up and made a play. It's all hypothetical.

If we didnt have Tate, but we had Harvin, I think we would have won the Rams game, and probably won it more easily. He can be used in more ways and would have helped out getting the Ram DEs from just purely running upfield every down to sack or harass Wilson or stop our RBs. A couple end rounds like he ran in the Superbowl would quickly change their DEs play, having to worry about contain.

 

[Scottemojo]

Tate was a huge loss.

I am not saying he can't be replaced, perhaps he already has been. But there is no need to diminish him like a scorned lover.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Without Tate we don't win the Rams Monday Night game. I don't believe any other player we have would have adjusted to that pass and made that play.

I think we'll be fine, but I just hope we don't run into any more situations like that where Tate would be the only guy to step up.

He did disappear a lot, which makes me think we won't miss him. But then I watch highlights from last year and there were times he would show up and make a catch that I don't think anyone else would have made. And it makes me nervous.

I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but I hate when people cherry pick one game and say "Without ____, blah blah...." Without Kearse, we don't win at Carolina and we don't win the NFCCG. So it could be argued....or maybe someone else would have stepped up and made a play. It's all hypothetical.

If we didnt have Tate, but we had Harvin, I think we would have won the Rams game, and probably won it more easily. He can be used in more ways and would have helped out getting the Ram DEs from just purely running upfield every down to sack or harass Wilson or stop our RBs. A couple end rounds like he ran in the Superbowl would quickly change their DEs play, having to worry about contain.

This...I hope Harvin can stay healthy all year...the way he opens up the offense is INSANE

 

[Tokadub]

I think Wilson really had no choice with his answer to the Tate question. What was he supposed to say? "Yeah I'm really worried how we can move the ball without Tate, if Harvin gets injured we are in deep doo doo."...

No, Wilson had to respond in this confident fashion as the leader of the team. It's unrealistic for him to express any concern about our current receivers.

BUT, as long as Harvin stays healthy I think we'll be OK. I wasn't expecting us to get two receivers with great potential in this draft. If Harvin get's injured that's when I expect things could get very messy with only 1 proven guy (Baldwin). I don't really consider Kearse to be proven, he had less than 400 yards receiving, had a 10% lower catch rate than our teams average last season, he just seems to have butterfingers in my opinion (see video below):

http://vimeo.com/102062194

@ 18:50 dang Kearse has some serious butterfingers drops a soft touch pass right off his hands, it was like a 15 foot throw couldn't be an easier catch....

Even in the Kearse highlight video you can see some of the balls just bounce off his chest and go right through his hands, he's kinda lucky the ball didn't take a bad bounce or the defenders didn't poke it away during all the time Kearse's hands couldn't find the ball. Also a lot of Kearse's dropped passes were ones where the ball bounced off his hands or went right through them. I just think Kearse has pretty mediocre hands, wasn't that the big scouting criticism of him coming out of college?

Kearse kinda seems like a guy I would expect to see playing some casual football with friends at the park. You'd watch him play and be like dang he's pretty skilled for a guy playing in the park! He's fast and can make some plays but he just doesn't jump out at me from a purely visual perspective as a guy with above average NFL level talent. Fortunately for Kearse he seems to make his best plays in critically important situations. Personally I think he's just been lucky or that this has been a fluke, sooner or later he's gonna drop some big pass which looks like an easy catch and more people might start doubting him like I do. I wasn't even sure if Kearse should make the team if Rice was healthy but I suspect he will now, although I expect him to be one of our worst receivers in total yards next season.

I know after reading that it sounds like I straight up hate Kearse. But honestly I like him and hope he proves me wrong. That double spin move in the Super Bowl was like straight out of NFL Blitz, he does have some sick ability. It's just his hands that really make me wonder if he can be any better than a 300-400 yard a season guy with a low catch rate %.

There is still the question who will be our punt returner? Tate may have won us a game or two with good field position last season with his returns. And I kinda agree with whoever said Tate is like a safety blanket. Sure Baldwin was amazing with his circus plays and clutch catches, but Tate seemed to be even better for getting open for mid range completions on BROKEN PLAYS. I think all the games where Wilson was sacked the most or under the most pressure were the games Tate really stepped up and carried us. If Harvin gets injured I am not sure if any of our other guys can fill that roll of Broken Play Savior. I don't even know if Harvin can improvise like Tate did for broken plays, but he is so athletically gifted that we should be able to move the ball even with our Offensive Line playing like a bunch of critically injured debilitated overweight dinosaurs.

Tate did a great job for us but the one thing that always bugged me about him was his lack of upper body definition. He had such strong hands and was a good run blocker but it was just incongruent with how his torso looked.

Tate does look pretty weak compared to Baldwin but according to the combine results I just looked up he benched 225 17 times compared to Baldwin's 6?

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/golden-tate?id=497326
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=68487&draftyear=2011&genpos=WR

Harvin did 19 and he's an ultimate freak athletically:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/percy-harvin?id=80425

Turbin did 28 and he has arms like fricken Schwarzenegger:


http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/robert-turbin?id=2533460

Or the Hulk...



Christine Michael looks puny in comparison to Turbin's arms but he did just 1 less 27...

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/christine-michael?id=2539322

My point being that you can't really judge a guy's strength just by how he looks. Tate was FREAKISHLY strong for his size and had crazy athleticism, footwork, and balance. I think Tate might be one of the most athletically gifted guys in the league. Tate's biggest weakness is probably his mind/intelligence, he has all the physical tools to dominate every game and I think he might start doing that in Detroit. But he did occasionally make some questionable decisions @ game time and I just get the impression that he doesn't even really try that hard because it's so easy for him with his natural ability. If he had the kind of mental determination and focus that Baldwin does he would be an absolute monster on the field.

And yes I have WAY too much free time tonight drinking beer and posting pics of the Turbin Hulk. But that's my rant for this subject.

 

[Tokadub]

Tate was a huge loss.

I am not saying he can't be replaced, perhaps he already has been. But there is no need to diminish him like a scorned lover.

I agree, it's amazing how people just started hating on Tate hardcore as soon as we lost him...

We saw a similar phenomenon to a lesser degree with this Lynch holdout. People saying they are sick of him, trade him, we don't need him, let him retire, etc. WTF?

What is wrong with these people? Both Tate and Lynch were dynamite players for us and they came up big for us on countless occasions. But as soon as they leave the team or even briefly hold out everyone turns on them in the blink of an eye and dismisses their value like they never even helped us to begin with? It's kind of disgraceful in my opinion. It shouldn't be so hard to respect our best players even if they leave/hold out/retire.

And I forgot to make this point in my last post which is probably way more important than any of my opinionated rantings:

The 2 years we had Russell Wilson as our QB Golden Tate was virtually tied for our #1 receiver in virtually all the most important statistics.

- In 2012 Tate was virtually tied as our #1 receiver with Sidney Rice.
- In 2013 Tate was virtually tied as our #1 receiver with Doug Baldwin.

So as far as our current team with Russell Wilson as our QB Tate was a top dog receiver both of these years, I don't think it's even debatable. Therefore, it's kinda crazy in my opinion to throw Tate under the bus the moment he leaves our team.

But as long as we have Harvin healthy I think we'll be OK, if Harvin gets hurt I think it will be such an obvious and huge blow to our offense we'll miss Tate. Given Harvin's injury history this is a worrisome situation but I am becoming increasingly optimistic he'll stay healthy. I read some study though that your gut instincts are usually correct when you have a tough problem to answer, if that's the case for me... Harvin gets injured pretty early in the season :shock:

 

[olyfan63]

Loved Tate's Run-After-Catch plays. Watching him make defenders miss--a thing of beauty!
Seattle made the right call by letting him walk and keeping Kearse and especially Baldwin.
I hope Tate lights it up for Detroit opposite Megatron.
Kearse gives us a lot of what Tate gave us as a receiver and blocker. That TD in the Superb Owl where like 5 Broncos couldn't tackle him was almost more Tately than Tate himself.
I'm excited about this year's receiving core, more so than last year's.

 

[olyfan63]

Without Tate we don't win the Rams Monday Night game. I don't believe any other player we have would have adjusted to that pass and made that play.

I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but I hate when people cherry pick one game and say "Without ____, blah blah...." Without Kearse, we don't win at Carolina and we don't win the NFCCG. So it could be argued....or maybe someone else would have stepped up and made a play. It's all hypothetical.

That's the remarkable thing about Seattle's run last year... you could make this statement, without (player X) making (some crucial amazing play) we don't win (some critical game).

We could legitimately say that about:
Sherman
Wilson
Baldwin
Kearse
Lynch
Tate
Avril
Bennett
Earl Thomas
Heath Farwell (next to last play of Rams game)
Browner (final play of Rams game)
Malcolm Smith
Kam
KJ Wright
Mebane
Steven Hauschka
with Honorable Mention to Brandon Browner 2012 edition and that Carolina game.

I'm sure I've left plenty on the table.

That's the beauty of this team--so many guys stepped up and made critical plays at critical times, it's truly awe-inspiring. I mean, Heath Farwell makes a great read and stuffs the Ram's 3rd down play--a special teams guy, in the game at linebacker (who knows why, but, "next man up") on a game-deciding goal line stand makes a brilliant, game-saving play--are you kidding me? Hugh Millen: "Credit Farwell for a lightning-quick recognition of the scheme and acceleration to the ball carrier to beat the backside block."

That's just part of what makes this team so much fun to root for--you never know who will make an amazing pivotal play to turn a game around.

 

[bjornanderson21]

I loved tate, maybe my favorite hawk while he was here - but he wasn't nearly as clutch as baldwin. Too many games where tate would pretty much disappear.

I looked at our wr's numbers game by game a while back and what I noticed is that tate had more "big" games but also got shut down more often.

Baldwin was more consistent though less flashy.

 

[Anthony!]

I think Wilson really had no choice with his answer to the Tate question. What was he supposed to say? "Yeah I'm really worried how we can move the ball without Tate, if Harvin gets injured we are in deep doo doo."...

No, Wilson had to respond in this confident fashion as the leader of the team. It's unrealistic for him to express any concern about our current receivers.

BUT, as long as Harvin stays healthy I think we'll be OK. I wasn't expecting us to get two receivers with great potential in this draft. If Harvin get's injured that's when I expect things could get very messy with only 1 proven guy (Baldwin). I don't really consider Kearse to be proven, he had less than 400 yards receiving, had a 10% lower catch rate than our teams average last season, he just seems to have butterfingers in my opinion (see video below):

http://vimeo.com/102062194

@ 18:50 dang Kearse has some serious butterfingers drops a soft touch pass right off his hands, it was like a 15 foot throw couldn't be an easier catch....

Even in the Kearse highlight video you can see some of the balls just bounce off his chest and go right through his hands, he's kinda lucky the ball didn't take a bad bounce or the defenders didn't poke it away during all the time Kearse's hands couldn't find the ball. Also a lot of Kearse's dropped passes were ones where the ball bounced off his hands or went right through them. I just think Kearse has pretty mediocre hands, wasn't that the big scouting criticism of him coming out of college?

Kearse kinda seems like a guy I would expect to see playing some casual football with friends at the park. You'd watch him play and be like dang he's pretty skilled for a guy playing in the park! He's fast and can make some plays but he just doesn't jump out at me from a purely visual perspective as a guy with above average NFL level talent. Fortunately for Kearse he seems to make his best plays in critically important situations. Personally I think he's just been lucky or that this has been a fluke, sooner or later he's gonna drop some big pass which looks like an easy catch and more people might start doubting him like I do. I wasn't even sure if Kearse should make the team if Rice was healthy but I suspect he will now, although I expect him to be one of our worst receivers in total yards next season.

I know after reading that it sounds like I straight up hate Kearse. But honestly I like him and hope he proves me wrong. That double spin move in the Super Bowl was like straight out of NFL Blitz, he does have some sick ability. It's just his hands that really make me wonder if he can be any better than a 300-400 yard a season guy with a low catch rate %.

There is still the question who will be our punt returner? Tate may have won us a game or two with good field position last season with his returns. And I kinda agree with whoever said Tate is like a safety blanket. Sure Baldwin was amazing with his circus plays and clutch catches, but Tate seemed to be even better for getting open for mid range completions on BROKEN PLAYS. I think all the games where Wilson was sacked the most or under the most pressure were the games Tate really stepped up and carried us. If Harvin gets injured I am not sure if any of our other guys can fill that roll of Broken Play Savior. I don't even know if Harvin can improvise like Tate did for broken plays, but he is so athletically gifted that we should be able to move the ball even with our Offensive Line playing like a bunch of critically injured debilitated overweight dinosaurs.

Tate did a great job for us but the one thing that always bugged me about him was his lack of upper body definition. He had such strong hands and was a good run blocker but it was just incongruent with how his torso looked.

Tate does look pretty weak compared to Baldwin but according to the combine results I just looked up he benched 225 17 times compared to Baldwin's 6?

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/golden-tate?id=497326
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=68487&draftyear=2011&genpos=WR

Harvin did 19 and he's an ultimate freak athletically:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/percy-harvin?id=80425

Turbin did 28 and he has arms like fricken Schwarzenegger:


http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/robert-turbin?id=2533460

Or the Hulk...



Christine Michael looks puny in comparison to Turbin's arms but he did just 1 less 27...

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/christine-michael?id=2539322

My point being that you can't really judge a guy's strength just by how he looks. Tate was FREAKISHLY strong for his size and had crazy athleticism, footwork, and balance. I think Tate might be one of the most athletically gifted guys in the league. Tate's biggest weakness is probably his mind/intelligence, he has all the physical tools to dominate every game and I think he might start doing that in Detroit. But he did occasionally make some questionable decisions @ game time and I just get the impression that he doesn't even really try that hard because it's so easy for him with his natural ability. If he had the kind of mental determination and focus that Baldwin does he would be an absolute monster on the field.

And yes I have WAY too much free time tonight drinking beer and posting pics of the Turbin Hulk. But that's my rant for this subject.

Hmm interesting

"The other statistic given is DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average WR in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance. DVOA (and its cousin, VOA, which isn't adjusted based on opponent)" "DVOA include all passes intended for the receiver, both complete and incomplete. "


Tate DVOA 12.9% VOA 14.2%
Baldwin DVOA 33.3 VOA 32.4
Kearse DVOA 26.2 VOA 23.5

Catch rate can be influenced by opportunity DVOA is not. It about Value and Kearse was higher than Tate ergo gave us more value. I did like Tate, but he did disappear at times, and could be shut down, and himself made mistakes, in his attempt to get more stats for himself he cost us first downs. Sometimes doing to much is not good. I think when a WR produces like Kearse did in the 2 biggest games of the year and has 2 years under his belt he can be considered proven.

 

[Smellyman]

Last year we had only 3 proven WR's at the start of the season, Baldwin, Tate and Rice.

This year we have also have three proven receivers, Baldwin, Kearse and Harvin..........as well as two very capable rookies that'll contribute from day #1. Which year would you take?

Kearse had 22 receptions last year. 25 for career. Hasn't proved much yet.

 

[olyfan63]

Last year we had only 3 proven WR's at the start of the season, Baldwin, Tate and Rice.

This year we have also have three proven receivers, Baldwin, Kearse and Harvin..........as well as two very capable rookies that'll contribute from day #1. Which year would you take?

Kearse had 22 receptions last year. 25 for career. Hasn't proved much yet.

Kearse has REPEATEDLY PROVEN he makes huge clutch catches in big games (playoffs) and game-deciding circumstances. Remember "The Catch" on 4th down against SF for a TD? How about his amazing TD in the Super Bowl?
Just watch the Kearse highlights film from 2013 and there's a lot of "proof" in there.

That said, Kearse was the #3 or #4 receiver after Baldwin and Tate, and Rice when he was healthy. He didn't draw the opponent's #1 corner that much. So did Kearse "prove" he's a #1 receiver? No. He did prove he can step up and make huge plays when the defense takes away #1 and #2, and he proved he is a terrific downfield blocker on running plays and has always been a huge, proven asset on special teams.

So I don't know what "proof" people are looking for, but Kearse has proven he consistently makes big plays at the NFL level, including against good defenses like SF and Carolina. Kearse is proven in my book, as a difference-making #3 wide receiver.

 

[Throwdown]

Tokadub is KING posting novels for one word answers, god I love you man

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Last year we had only 3 proven WR's at the start of the season, Baldwin, Tate and Rice.

This year we have also have three proven receivers, Baldwin, Kearse and Harvin..........as well as two very capable rookies that'll contribute from day #1. Which year would you take?

Kearse had 22 receptions last year. 25 for career. Hasn't proved much yet.

Kearse has REPEATEDLY PROVEN he makes huge clutch catches in big games (playoffs) and game-deciding circumstances. Remember "The Catch" on 4th down against SF for a TD? How about his amazing TD in the Super Bowl?
Just watch the Kearse highlights film from 2013 and there's a lot of "proof" in there.

That said, Kearse was the #3 or #4 receiver after Baldwin and Tate, and Rice when he was healthy. He didn't draw the opponent's #1 corner that much. So did Kearse "prove" he's a #1 receiver? No. He did prove he can step up and make huge plays when the defense takes away #1 and #2, and he proved he is a terrific downfield blocker on running plays and has always been a huge, proven asset on special teams.

So I don't know what "proof" people are looking for, but Kearse has proven he consistently makes big plays at the NFL level, including against good defenses like SF and Carolina. Kearse is proven in my book, as a difference-making #3 wide receiver.

To piggyback off you olyfan63,

Smellyfan, technically Kearse has proven more than Tate did in Year 2 Comparisons:

Tate (in 2011): 35 Catches, 382 Yards, 10.91 YPC, 60.3 Catch%, 3 TDs
Kearse (in 2013): 29 Catches, 480 Yards, 16.55 YPC, 59.2 Catch%, 6 TDs

 

[Smellyman]

Last year we had only 3 proven WR's at the start of the season, Baldwin, Tate and Rice.

This year we have also have three proven receivers, Baldwin, Kearse and Harvin..........as well as two very capable rookies that'll contribute from day #1. Which year would you take?

Kearse had 22 receptions last year. 25 for career. Hasn't proved much yet.

Kearse has REPEATEDLY PROVEN he makes huge clutch catches in big games (playoffs) and game-deciding circumstances. Remember "The Catch" on 4th down against SF for a TD? How about his amazing TD in the Super Bowl?
Just watch the Kearse highlights film from 2013 and there's a lot of "proof" in there.

That said, Kearse was the #3 or #4 receiver after Baldwin and Tate, and Rice when he was healthy. He didn't draw the opponent's #1 corner that much. So did Kearse "prove" he's a #1 receiver? No. He did prove he can step up and make huge plays when the defense takes away #1 and #2, and he proved he is a terrific downfield blocker on running plays and has always been a huge, proven asset on special teams.

So I don't know what "proof" people are looking for, but Kearse has proven he consistently makes big plays at the NFL level, including against good defenses like SF and Carolina. Kearse is proven in my book, as a difference-making #3 wide receiver.

To piggyback off you olyfan63,

Smellyfan, technically Kearse has proven more than Tate did in Year 2 Comparisons:

Tate (in 2011): 35 Catches, 382 Yards, 10.91 YPC, 60.3 Catch%, 3 TDs
Kearse (in 2013): 29 Catches, 480 Yards, 16.55 YPC, 59.2 Catch%, 6 TDs

yeah, and Tate wasn't a proven commodity either.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

yeah, and Tate wasn't a proven commodity either.

Exactly my point... you say unproven, I say progress. Kearse may had a small sample size but like oly said, he had some huge catches, huge moments, Kearse "proved" he as a future in the league. And honestly with Russell Wilson as your QB, you can only get better and more efficient as they accrue more experience together and build up chemistry.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Tate was a huge loss.

I am not saying he can't be replaced, perhaps he already has been. But there is no need to diminish him like a scorned lover.

It's annoying me how many people are doing that. Sure, he didn't get open much, but the dude has INSANE YAC ability and if they give him the pigskin a lot in Detroit against second-tier corners, he's going to have a friggin' field day.

Tate will have a great year this year, IMO.

 

[General Manager]

I want to 100% believe Russell, but I think there could be some hiccups early with some of the new guys. I Tate was our best jump ball guy, who fills in there? And also, who is gonna replace Golden as our punt returner?

Richardson of course he was our first pick he can step up and take Tate's place no problem right ?