Russell Wilson is Elite | I'm Putting the Nail in the Coffin

[RCATES]

Rcates and Tical have been bashing his every move for years. To the point of just making stuff up. Meh

And you have been hanging off his bullocks for the same amount of time. RW is not Elite. Could you draw back the running game and literally put the entire game in RW's hands as a pure passer? Absolutely not. When the run game struggles this Offense is god awful. That's not what you get from a Elite Qb at this level. Russ is top 10 for sure. Not top 5.

 

[Ad Hawk]

Rcates and Tical have been bashing his every move for years. To the point of just making stuff up. Meh

And you have been hanging off his bullocks for the same amount of time. RW is not Elite. Could you draw back the running game and literally put the entire game in RW's hands as a pure passer? Absolutely not. When the run game struggles this Offense is god awful. That's not what you get from a Elite Qb at this level. Russ is top 10 for sure. Not top 5.

Drew Brees can't do it all either, even with his all-world passing and pocket skill. If he could, he'd have more than one ring. He would put the whole team on his shoulders and win every game. This year he has a two-headed monster running the ball, and all of a sudden, his team is thriving.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Rcates and Tical have been bashing his every move for years. To the point of just making stuff up. Meh

And you have been hanging off his bullocks for the same amount of time. RW is not Elite. Could you draw back the running game and literally put the entire game in RW's hands as a pure passer? Absolutely not. When the run game struggles this Offense is god awful. That's not what you get from a Elite Qb at this level. Russ is top 10 for sure. Not top 5.

Based on your rationale, there are no elite QBs.


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[Uncle Si]

Trent Dilfer, Joe Theismann, Terry Bradshaw are reflective of why Supwr Bowl wins are not "all that matters" when evaluating qbs (or any player)

 

[mrt144]

Rcates and Tical have been bashing his every move for years. To the point of just making stuff up. Meh

And you have been hanging off his bullocks for the same amount of time. RW is not Elite. Could you draw back the running game and literally put the entire game in RW's hands as a pure passer? Absolutely not. When the run game struggles this Offense is god awful. That's not what you get from a Elite Qb at this level. Russ is top 10 for sure. Not top 5.

Based on your rationale, there are no elite QBs.


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Can we start dragging this dude for being in love with his own ideal imagination?

 

[Uncle Si]

It is an interesting argument.

I don't think you could consider him elite but I am not going to argue about it. Certainly, I don't put him as a top 3 in the league.

Ultimately, again, the problem is that elite is subjective. Tical's expectation of an elite QB is different than Fade's. Some people just care about the raw #s.

Honestly, I hope Fade is right. I don't believe it but it probably does not matter. What does matter is that Wilson had a terrible game, kept throwing and then made great throws at the end of the last game.

For several years now Wilson has had people making excuses for why he is falling short in wins and playoff production. And for several years those people have been right. Wilson has produced despite missing a lot of pieces that you would expect a QB to need.

Now he has those pieces. There are no more excuses. If he is an elite QB he is going to deliver elite results. Not numbers but wins when it matters.

If Rodgers has a bad game, they lose and people will point out that was on him. If Brady has a bad game, they lose and people will point out he fell short. If Wilson has a bad game, people make excuses for him.

Elite QBs produce in the playoffs. In fact, they elevate their play in the playoffs. So the litmus test will be making the playoffs and then getting something beyond the wildcard game in terms of wins. Or you can just go with the version of 'elite' QB that doesn't do anything in the playoffs if that definition makes you happy.

Until we start getting playoff wins outside of the wildcard game (ie against playoff caliber teams), nobody gets to put a nail in any coffin on whether or not we have an elite QB. It is possible though since a lot of things that held Wilson back are now addressed.

Didnt disappoint..


Now, team wins have to be barometer. Regardless of the team restructure going on around the qb... and ignoring the youth and inexperience of both the majority of the offense and almost all of the defense. For Wilson to suceed in this parameter will require miracles.

Also... all i heard thursday night was excuses for Rodgers, by the national media. So that correlation and its attempt to narrow the measurable is both false and poorly constructed.

 

[Uncle Si]

Why I can't call Russell Elite is because he doesn't show the same consistency as the two QB's I consider Elite, Brady and Brees.

Russell vacillates from bad to good to great far too often for me to put him in the "elite" conversation........and I know my definition is much stricter than most. So I'm cool with people saying he's elite if your definition is more top 5-7 QB, then he'd qualify.

But me? No. Too many bad 1st quarters like Thursday, and too many bad slow starts taking entire halves getting into rhythm. That's not elite to me.

Drew Brees yesterday? That's elite, just destroying defenses week after week after week like the god damn Terminator.

Id say 3-6. Brees is in a class of his own. Goff not too far behind. After that, you get qbs doing lots of good things at a similar level for their teams.

Ticals "elite player" vs "elite passer" is an interesting point. Wilsons greatest strengths might be while on the move, which is why i dont fault him too much for taking sacks (hes used to escaping and making huge plays). But in the pocket... probably not elite.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Thx for the laugh. They won 9 games last year with a HISTORICALLY bad Running game, a HORRIFIC O-Line and a ridiculous amount of injuries to some of the best players in the league.
But yeah, he can't carry a team. Do you even watch football, or do just literally hate the guy? :roll:
Still between 4-7 in the league and is in the prime of his career. This team is in good hands w/Russ.

 

[Mad Dog]

Why I can't call Russell Elite is because he doesn't show the same consistency as the two QB's I consider Elite, Brady and Brees.

Russell vacillates from bad to good to great far too often for me to put him in the "elite" conversation........and I know my definition is much stricter than most. So I'm cool with people saying he's elite if your definition is more top 5-7 QB, then he'd qualify.

But me? No. Too many bad 1st quarters like Thursday, and too many bad slow starts taking entire halves getting into rhythm. That's not elite to me.

Drew Brees yesterday? That's elite, just destroying defenses week after week after week like the god damn Terminator.

Drew Brees is playing behind a stud OL with stud running game and a couple stud receivers and a top notch offensive HC. It's a team game and coaching matters. When all things fall into place many QB's can have dominant seasons. For that to happen with RW we would need a top ten pass blocking OL, a more creative OC, an offensive minded HC, at least one more stud WR, Until he gets those things, all comparisons are moot.

I'm not saying that Wilson is truly elite. I think you need to be in the MVP conversation more often to be that kind of QB. But I'm of the opinion that he's been held back by lousy OL's, conservative coaching styles more than by his own deficiencies. And I think this is where I differ from the haters. I'm not going to place a ton of blame on Wilson for every failed drive. Too many variables out of his control. Until I see him fail in a system completely tailored for QB success, I'll withhold summary judgement.

Right now he plays in a system designed to minimize risk, maximize efficiency, keep things close and finish strong. It's been a winning formula despite the years its taken off my life. Until it isn't, I don't see Pete changing his style. And until that happens Wilson will continue to be as he always is, a very efficient low volume QB with winning seasons.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Why I can't call Russell Elite is because he doesn't show the same consistency as the two QB's I consider Elite, Brady and Brees.

Russell vacillates from bad to good to great far too often for me to put him in the "elite" conversation........and I know my definition is much stricter than most. So I'm cool with people saying he's elite if your definition is more top 5-7 QB, then he'd qualify.

But me? No. Too many bad 1st quarters like Thursday, and too many bad slow starts taking entire halves getting into rhythm. That's not elite to me.

Drew Brees yesterday? That's elite, just destroying defenses week after week after week like the god damn Terminator.

Id say 3-6. Brees is in a class of his own. Goff not too far behind. After that, you get qbs doing lots of good things at a similar level for their teams.

Ticals "elite player" vs "elite passer" is an interesting point. Wilsons greatest strengths might be while on the move, which is why i dont fault him too much for taking sacks (hes used to escaping and making huge plays). But in the pocket... probably not elite.

That's my point, Brees is in a class by himself, the elite class.

But "elite" is a nebulous subjective word, so I'm fine with people calling him elite if their definition is a little more forgiving and/or broader then mine.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Yeah, Brees, Brady and Rodgers are still the top 3. But right after that, there is that next 4-7 tier, and Russ is clearly in that tier, and I'm good with that.

 

[rcaido]

Win record?

Doesn't Wilson have the most wins since he's been in the league minus Brady?

Here is Elite Brees record since Wilson has been in the league

2012 - 7w - 9L
2013 - 11w - 5L
2014 - 7w - 9L
2015 - 7W - 8L
2016 - 7w - 9L
2017 - 11W - 5L
2018 - 9w - 1L

Brees has only been in the playoffs twice since Wilson been in the league. Had 4 losing records. Made the playoffs only with a running game.

Side note, Wilson has never had a losing season. Been in the playoff all the time except last year...Should have made it if weren't for the kicker and injuries.

 

[themunn]

Why I can't call Russell Elite is because he doesn't show the same consistency as the two QB's I consider Elite, Brady and Brees.

Russell vacillates from bad to good to great far too often for me to put him in the "elite" conversation........and I know my definition is much stricter than most. So I'm cool with people saying he's elite if your definition is more top 5-7 QB, then he'd qualify.

But me? No. Too many bad 1st quarters like Thursday, and too many bad slow starts taking entire halves getting into rhythm. That's not elite to me.

Drew Brees yesterday? That's elite, just destroying defenses week after week after week like the god damn Terminator.

It's great that at the age of 39 and in his 18th season, Brees can finally be called elite.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Why I can't call Russell Elite is because he doesn't show the same consistency as the two QB's I consider Elite, Brady and Brees.

Russell vacillates from bad to good to great far too often for me to put him in the "elite" conversation........and I know my definition is much stricter than most. So I'm cool with people saying he's elite if your definition is more top 5-7 QB, then he'd qualify.

But me? No. Too many bad 1st quarters like Thursday, and too many bad slow starts taking entire halves getting into rhythm. That's not elite to me.

Drew Brees yesterday? That's elite, just destroying defenses week after week after week like the god damn Terminator.

It's great that at the age of 39 and in his 18th season, Brees can finally be called elite.

Brees has been elite since the mid 2000's, he didn't need me to say it.

 

[RCATES]

Thx for the laugh. They won 9 games last year with a HISTORICALLY bad Running game, a HORRIFIC O-Line and a ridiculous amount of injuries to some of the best players in the league.
But yeah, he can't carry a team. Do you even watch football, or do just literally hate the guy? :roll:
Still between 4-7 in the league and is in the prime of his career. This team is in good hands w/Russ.

That's nice. Russ finally has a Elite O-Line, #1 run game in the league and a top 5 defense. We're 5-5. 2-10 in the last 12 games decided by a TD or less.

 

[themunn]

Brees has been elite since the mid 2000's, he didn't need me to say it.

But this is the first season where you can really say that Brees has played mistake free football, which is what you're looking for.

Not even 2 years ago he had back to back games with 3 inteceptions and 0 TDs. That's something Wilson has never done (not even in the same season), so it's not clear what your benchmark is

 

[mrt144]

Brees has been elite since the mid 2000's, he didn't need me to say it.

But this is the first season where you can really say that Brees has played mistake free football, which is what you're looking for.

Not even 2 years ago he had back to back games with 3 inteceptions and 0 TDs. That's something Wilson has never done (not even in the same season), so it's not clear what your benchmark is

Perhaps the difference is that a contingent of fans never expect RW to bounce back after a bad game, like ever, where as they take it for granted that those bad Brees games are a blip and there's no reason to doubt he will come out guns blazing next game. It's a cognitive bias in play.

 

[Seymour]

Rcates and Tical have been bashing his every move for years. To the point of just making stuff up. Meh

And you have been hanging off his bullocks for the same amount of time. RW is not Elite. Could you draw back the running game and literally put the entire game in RW's hands as a pure passer? Absolutely not. When the run game struggles this Offense is god awful. That's not what you get from a Elite Qb at this level. Russ is top 10 for sure. Not top 5.

What a joke to ask stupid questions like this. Is the team built to do this like the ones you have such a boner for? Do we have the receivers, OC, OL and head coach to even consider being successful at that? Do we have strong pass protection (without a run game to keep them in check)?

No
No
and No.

Dumb post. :177692:

 

[Uncle Si]

Thx for the laugh. They won 9 games last year with a HISTORICALLY bad Running game, a HORRIFIC O-Line and a ridiculous amount of injuries to some of the best players in the league.
But yeah, he can't carry a team. Do you even watch football, or do just literally hate the guy? :roll:
Still between 4-7 in the league and is in the prime of his career. This team is in good hands w/Russ.

That's nice. Russ finally has a Elite O-Line, #1 run game in the league and a top 5 defense. We're 5-5. 2-10 in the last 12 games decided by a TD or less.

Do you put that on the qb?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Brees has been elite since the mid 2000's, he didn't need me to say it.

But this is the first season where you can really say that Brees has played mistake free football, which is what you're looking for.

Not even 2 years ago he had back to back games with 3 inteceptions and 0 TDs. That's something Wilson has never done (not even in the same season), so it's not clear what your benchmark is

I said what I'm looking for, consistency.

When Brady and Brees take the field, rarely do they go through entire quarters or halves where they're airmailing receivers and making coverage read mistakes. They're consistently good to great quarter in, quarter out, game in, game out and year in and year out. Some years better then others, but always good to great.

Russell hasn't reached that level yet, or may never. He OFTEN looks bad for entire quarters or even halves, and this year has made critical mistakes in the 2nd halves of games.

That's not elite to me, it's just not.........and most of the national media save for Colin Cowherd agrees with me. Russell is still a tier two QB behind Rodgers, Brady and Brees.

If you think he is, that's great. Like I said I'm OK with you calling Russell elite, but I don't. I still need to see more consistency to be in the same elite class with Brady, Brees and Rodgers.