Russell Wilson is Elite | I'm Putting the Nail in the Coffin

[RCATES]

Thx for the laugh. They won 9 games last year with a HISTORICALLY bad Running game, a HORRIFIC O-Line and a ridiculous amount of injuries to some of the best players in the league.
But yeah, he can't carry a team. Do you even watch football, or do just literally hate the guy? :roll:
Still between 4-7 in the league and is in the prime of his career. This team is in good hands w/Russ.

That's nice. Russ finally has a Elite O-Line, #1 run game in the league and a top 5 defense. We're 5-5. 2-10 in the last 12 games decided by a TD or less.

Do you put that on the qb?

100%. Wilson hasn't been getting it done the last 14 weeks in crunch time like he has in the past.

 

[Uncle Si]

Brees has been elite since the mid 2000's, he didn't need me to say it.

But this is the first season where you can really say that Brees has played mistake free football, which is what you're looking for.

Not even 2 years ago he had back to back games with 3 inteceptions and 0 TDs. That's something Wilson has never done (not even in the same season), so it's not clear what your benchmark is

I said what I'm looking for, consistency.

When Brady and Brees take the field, rarely do they go through entire quarters or halves where they're airmailing receivers and making coverage read mistakes. They're consistently good to great quarter in, quarter out, game in, game out and year in and year out. Some years better then others, but always good to great.

Russell hasn't reached that level yet, or may never. He OFTEN looks bad for entire quarters or even halves, and this year has made critical mistakes in the 2nd halves of games.

That's not elite to me, it's just not.........and most of the national media save for Colin Cowherd agrees with me. Russell is still a tier two QB behind Rodgers, Brady and Brees.

If you think he is, that's great. Like I said I'm OK with you calling Russell elite, but I don't. I still need to see more consistency to be in the same elite class with Brady, Brees and Rodgers.

Fair

 

[RCATES]

Brees has been elite since the mid 2000's, he didn't need me to say it.

But this is the first season where you can really say that Brees has played mistake free football, which is what you're looking for.

Not even 2 years ago he had back to back games with 3 inteceptions and 0 TDs. That's something Wilson has never done (not even in the same season), so it's not clear what your benchmark is

I said what I'm looking for, consistency.

When Brady and Brees take the field, rarely do they go through entire quarters or halves where they're airmailing receivers and making coverage read mistakes. They're consistently good to great quarter in, quarter out, game in, game out and year in and year out. Some years better then others, but always good to great.

Russell hasn't reached that level yet, or may never. He OFTEN looks bad for entire quarters or even halves, and this year has made critical mistakes in the 2nd halves of games.

That's not elite to me, it's just not.........and most of the national media save for Colin Cowherd agrees with me. Russell is still a tier two QB behind Rodgers, Brady and Brees.

If you think he is, that's great. Like I said I'm OK with you calling Russell elite, but I don't. I still need to see more consistency to be in the same elite class with Brady, Brees and Rodgers.

100% agree other then I'd put Ryan,Rivers,Ben and Mahomes ahead of Wilson.

 

[Uncle Si]

Why though?

Ryan, Rivers and Ben are just as likely as Wilson to be inconsistent. Just look at Bens first half yesterday... or Ryans Super Bowl 2nd half.

Mahomes has played 8 games.

 

[chris98251]

Brees has been elite since the mid 2000's, he didn't need me to say it.

But this is the first season where you can really say that Brees has played mistake free football, which is what you're looking for.

Not even 2 years ago he had back to back games with 3 inteceptions and 0 TDs. That's something Wilson has never done (not even in the same season), so it's not clear what your benchmark is

I said what I'm looking for, consistency.

When Brady and Brees take the field, rarely do they go through entire quarters or halves where they're airmailing receivers and making coverage read mistakes. They're consistently good to great quarter in, quarter out, game in, game out and year in and year out. Some years better then others, but always good to great.

Russell hasn't reached that level yet, or may never. He OFTEN looks bad for entire quarters or even halves, and this year has made critical mistakes in the 2nd halves of games.

That's not elite to me, it's just not.........and most of the national media save for Colin Cowherd agrees with me. Russell is still a tier two QB behind Rodgers, Brady and Brees.

If you think he is, that's great. Like I said I'm OK with you calling Russell elite, but I don't. I still need to see more consistency to be in the same elite class with Brady, Brees and Rodgers.

100% agree other then I'd put Ryan,Rivers,Ben and Mahomes ahead of Wilson.

If you put any of those QB's in our offense the past 4 years they would be on IR every season, what makes Wilson unique and Elite is that he survived and played well in a offense that was broken. Yes he had some bad plays but so do all those other QB's.

 

[Tical21]

I don't agree with the last point. Rodgers, Ben and Eli all won super bowls relatively recently with bottom-5 O-lines. Peyton rarely had decent lines. There are other ways to cover-up a horrible line than running around the pass rush.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Ryan, Rivers and Ben over Russ? Ben when he's on is VERY good. But he's also pretty inconsistent.

 

[Mad Dog]

Thx for the laugh. They won 9 games last year with a HISTORICALLY bad Running game, a HORRIFIC O-Line and a ridiculous amount of injuries to some of the best players in the league.
But yeah, he can't carry a team. Do you even watch football, or do just literally hate the guy? :roll:
Still between 4-7 in the league and is in the prime of his career. This team is in good hands w/Russ.

That's nice. Russ finally has a Elite O-Line, #1 run game in the league and a top 5 defense. We're 5-5. 2-10 in the last 12 games decided by a TD or less.

First off the OL is just average not elite (PFF rank 19 I believe). We are just so used to terrible OL play that even average looks good. And I think our defense is only ranked top 10 in pts/game.

And finally many of the games that were decided by a score or less, we were actually behind by two scores. That's a mighty tall order to expect a QB to come back from two scores down in the 4th quarter time and time again. You now how many times teams have done that when they are down two scores against the Seahawks. Precious few.

Tom Brady is 5-3 in close Super Bowls and with a bit of luck here or there could be 8-0 or 0-8. Close game outcomes tend to even out over time and I think we are seeing some autocorrection for a bit of good fortune early in Wilson's career.

 

[Tical21]

@Fade, the most intriguing part of this post so far, to me, has been the discussion about Rodgers.

If Russell can't be considered elite primarily because he holds the ball too long and misses critical windows against zone coverage, can we then say Rodgers is not elite because he holds the ball even longer?

To be honest, I have never studied Rodgers on tape. My guess is that he holds the ball for different reasons than Russell, but it is a pretty interesting thought. TBF, I hold Rodgers in lower esteem than most do. He is an absolute god talent-wise, but he doesn't put it together often enough for me or win enough games. They're 4-5 far too often, and usually without horrible rosters.

 

[chris98251]

I don't agree with the last point. Rodgers, Ben and Eli all won super bowls relatively recently with bottom-5 O-lines. Peyton rarely had decent lines. There are other ways to cover-up a horrible line than running around the pass rush.

No line was last, I would be willing to bet none of them belly flopped in front of defenders either, we were ranked last or second to last a couple of those years, the non mobile stick figures that those guys are would have been a pile of pain.


Extremely quick release is one, but there were many times Wilson had less then 2 seconds to get rid of the ball, second a OC that has route trees designed for quick hitters and hot routes, again not what we had, in fact our trees added to the problem with long developing plays, no HB screen plays either. We had the Bubble and that was about it.

 

[Seymour]

Why though?

Ryan, Rivers and Ben are just as likely as Wilson to be inconsistent. Just look at Bens first half yesterday... or Ryans Super Bowl 2nd half.

Mahomes has played 8 games.

Why? Because 250 of his 452 post are centered around Wilson hate. I would not expect to have any logical reasons for it, and it's really not worth your effort to use rational thinking to question IMO.

Ben's first half?

He's 6'5" tall so he gets a mulligan a week. :snack:

 

[Sgt. Largent]

But this is the first season where you can really say that Brees has played mistake free football, which is what you're looking for.

Not even 2 years ago he had back to back games with 3 inteceptions and 0 TDs. That's something Wilson has never done (not even in the same season), so it's not clear what your benchmark is

I said what I'm looking for, consistency.

When Brady and Brees take the field, rarely do they go through entire quarters or halves where they're airmailing receivers and making coverage read mistakes. They're consistently good to great quarter in, quarter out, game in, game out and year in and year out. Some years better then others, but always good to great.

Russell hasn't reached that level yet, or may never. He OFTEN looks bad for entire quarters or even halves, and this year has made critical mistakes in the 2nd halves of games.

That's not elite to me, it's just not.........and most of the national media save for Colin Cowherd agrees with me. Russell is still a tier two QB behind Rodgers, Brady and Brees.

If you think he is, that's great. Like I said I'm OK with you calling Russell elite, but I don't. I still need to see more consistency to be in the same elite class with Brady, Brees and Rodgers.

100% agree other then I'd put Ryan,Rivers,Ben and Mahomes ahead of Wilson.

If you put any of those QB's in our offense the past 4 years they would be on IR every season, what makes Wilson unique and Elite is that he survived and played well in a offense that was broken. Yes he had some bad plays but so do all those other QB's.

Bad plays? Russell has entire bad quarters and halves............often. Again, consistency.

IMO it'd go like this;

Elite
Rodgers
Brees
Brady

2nd tier
Russell
Rivers
Roethlessberger
Ryan
Newton
Goff


3rd tier
Mahomes (Not big enough sample size yet, but playing like tier 2)
Mariota
Wentz
Trubisky
Cousins
Dalton
Prescott
Stafford
Watson
Manning
Carr
Smith

Tier who cares
Everyone else

Yes Russell can get into rhythm, play lights out like a tier one QB, but he can also stink up the joint for long stretches of games where he plays like a tier three QB. Thus not elite yet.

Is that his fault? Partly yes, and partly no. I'm not giving him a pass into tier one because he's had bad O-lines or surrounding casts, that's not how this works. All three elite QB's have had long stretches of their seasons and careers with bad players surrounding them. No excuses with this discussion.

 

[Fade]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/1063291679241687041[/tweet]

It's not what ever excuse you want to make [Insert Here] -- it's Wilson. He plays under a higher degree of difficulty than all of the other supposed "elites", yet statistically keeps up with them.

Is the System "Elite" --> NO.

Is the O-Line "Elite" --> NO. (It has been dreadful actually, it should have crushed his numbers.)

Is the Production "Elite" --> YES!

Is Wilson Elite...... no? Does not compute.

There has to be a reason for his elite production. The only one I can find is that he is pretty damn good, "elite" actually.

 

[Uncle Si]

Not sure why Rodgers is elite. Statistically on par with Wilson. Has won less. Is prone to inconsistencies as well.

His moments of heroics shade quite a bit of his average play.

 

[RCATES]

Why though?

Ryan, Rivers and Ben are just as likely as Wilson to be inconsistent. Just look at Bens first half yesterday... or Ryans Super Bowl 2nd half.

Mahomes has played 8 games.

Like the above poster explained I've seen games where Wilson has looked terrible for 3 quarters. Mistake after Mistake. Literally looking like he's over his head. I've never seen those others I listed above him look like that for that long of stretches. He's wildly inconsistent. That knocks him down off that level for me. Lets see if Wilson can get it done in Carolina this week after at least playing well the second half against GB. First half was dreadful.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Not sure why Rodgers is elite. Statistically on par with Wilson. Has won less. Is prone to inconsistencies as well.

His moments of heroics shade quite a bit of his average play.

I also think Rodgers is on the fringe of tier one and tier two, so I don't have a problem with people saying he's not on the same level as Brees and Brady.

Longevity of being consistently great longer than Russell and some others is all I'd say, but again I wouldn't go crazy if you don't consider him elite. Certainly hasn't been this year.

 

[Uncle Si]

Why though?

Ryan, Rivers and Ben are just as likely as Wilson to be inconsistent. Just look at Bens first half yesterday... or Ryans Super Bowl 2nd half.

Mahomes has played 8 games.

Like the above poster explained I've seen games where Wilson has looked terrible for 3 quarters. Mistake after Mistake. Literally looking like he's over his head. I've never seen those others I listed above him look like that for that long of stretches. He's wildly inconsistent. That knocks him down off that level for me.

Yeah i get that for top tier. But the guys you listed (outside Mahomes) have all done similar, and their overall career statistics dont quite measure up.

If its eye test, Ben was awful for 3 quarters on Sunday. Rivers against Seattle in the 2nd half was 4-9 for 59 yards and 2 sacks, scoring 0 offensive points.

 

[mrt144]

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/8/31/16 ... 1539792646

Remember me by my wisdom.

 

[Fade]

Why though?

Ryan, Rivers and Ben are just as likely as Wilson to be inconsistent. Just look at Bens first half yesterday... or Ryans Super Bowl 2nd half.

Mahomes has played 8 games.

Like the above poster explained I've seen games where Wilson has looked terrible for 3 quarters. Mistake after Mistake. Literally looking like he's over his head. I've never seen those others I listed above him look like that for that long of stretches. He's wildly inconsistent. That knocks him down off that level for me.

This argument has already been refuted.

You have a distorted lens. Let me explain.

You do not watch the other 31 teams play football consistently. You watch only the highlights of other teams, but watch Wilson's every play under a microscope.

From that filter you rarely ever see the other QBs mistakes. Trust me they make just as many if not more. They have blemishes and worts too.

Also too Offensive Line play, and OC can raise the degree of difficulty, and can lead to erratic inconsistencies. You are clearly not factoring that in. Russell Wilson has had the highest degree of difficulty of all of the elite QBs, while still hanging with those guys numbers wise, Over a 50-is game stretch. This is not cherry picking a small sample here. It is ridiculously impressive.

Great QBs have bad seasons, games, halves, quarters, series, plays, throws over the course of their careers. THEY ALL DO actually. You're demanding the impossible. 120ish Passer Rating is not a sustainable number (or thereabouts if he played great all of the time) over a 50ish games stretch is not an expectation you should have for a QB. You can root for that outcome, trust me I do all the time, but you cannot have that as your expectation. Your'e suffering from the "Mythical Franchise QB Syndrome". He plays great all of the time, and drags scrub to avg teams kicking and screaming to Conference Championship Games. --> That guy doesn't exist.

 

[TwistedHusky]

It is literally laughable to see people try to make the point that Wilson is the equal of Rodgers (or try to imply it).

Wilson carries his team in the 4th quarter, often. Rodgers carries his team (including his defense) for 4 quarters, often. He has done that for years, but for when injured.

Meanwhile, Wilson gets carried by his team for 3 quarters routinely, even in the very last game he played where everyone is so excited about the win and him being so 'elite'.

And for all that, with all of the amazing play, sacks by our defense, and advantages of being a home team on a Thursday night - we beat a depleted Packers team by a FG. At home, with our 'elite' QB who couldn't hit water from a boat until the late 3rd quarter again. We were able to run the ball on the 25th ranked defense and Wilson was able to figure it out.

He had a bad game. Fixed it and then came back to win the game for us. But all that, and we only won the game by a FG.

Rodgers kept his team in that game while fielding really only 1 WR and a bunch of rookies. While making up for a porous defense. The GB RB is good but barely carried the ball.

Aaron carried his team for almost the entire game.

Wilson is a very good QB as the #s suggest. But to suggest he is anywhere in the class of Rodgers is literally hilarious.

Not saying Rodgers never has bad games. He does. But he doesn't need his team to carry him for 2-3 quarters regularly. It doesn't even make sense to imply that Rodgers is somehow worse than Wilson.

Wilson is a great QB. Until he starts carrying his team in the playoffs like elite QBs do - it makes no sense to compare him to Rodgers.