RW growth: The next phase

[hawksfansinceday1]

The next step in Russells growth is for the OC and Pete to trust him to adjust and make calls, too many times I think he doesn't push back or ask for more control at this point. Time to let him be a veteran and take the rookie gloves off. If thye call a play and the defernse is aligned to counter it, let him audible, if he sees a substitution that we can make a play on, let him audible.

What makes you think Russell doesn't have the power to make adjustments?

I've never heard otherwise.

Now SHOULD Russell make line change calls and go off script when he sees something the D is doing? Yes, because that was my point above, too tentative and afraid to make mistakes is what I see.

Have we ever heard either way? Don't believe so. I'm with Lymon though, if he doesn't it's time to grow a pair and start as it's increasingly becoming his offense.

 

[Tical21]

The next step in Russell's growth into an elite QB is to stop being so tentative.

I haven't seen any talent or skill drop this year with Russell, but I have seen too much tentative play. He's tentative with throws and he's tentative with not keeping the ball on the read too often.

The QB should keep the ball 50% of the time on read option plays, that's the only way that scheme works. If the D knows he's going to hand it off to Marshawn 80% of the time, then that's the way they're going to go with the play..........which is why it hasn't been as successful for us this year.

He wants to put that keeper part of the play in his back pocket for when he needs it to complete third downs in the second half. I'm actually okay with this, but Marshawn is kind of the sacrificial lamb. Early in the game, Russell gives him the ball even when the end crashes on Marshawn. It might piss Marshawn off a little, but you know in the second half when we need a big play, Russell can keep it and make a big play whenever he needs it.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

The problem with Wilson is he does not produce enough to even be included in the elite QB conversation.

And it is not that he is not capable, he is just not consistent. You cannot rely on him to produce when the rest of the guys are not doing as well - and that is the hallmark of an elite QB.

I think that's overstating things. The man has a higher W/L record than any active QB in the league not named Tom Brady, and two Super Bowl appearances in three years.

Lynch was only indirectly responsible for the plays in which Wilson scrambled around for ten seconds and found Doug Baldwin 40 yards down the field. Without every one of those plays, we aren't two-time NFC champions.

 

[DavidSeven]

The coaches have already said Russell has free reign to check out of any play he wants, and he's had that autonomy for years now. Listen to Bevell's presser from last week if you don't believe that. It was also reported this offseason that he would be responsible for shifting protections.

In terms of Russell's growth, it's all about pre-snap recognition. If he shifts the line (or fails to shift the line) so that Graham is matched up 1-on-1 with a DE against a 4-man rush, that is not on the playcall or the OL.

Some of the other things mentioned (throwing middle, stepping up in pocket) are a result of natural limitations and I don't foresee a lot of change there. However, if we can get the protection right (and a lot of that is personnel too) and the checks right, then I believe Russell will look elite in spite of those things because of the other stuff he brings to the game.

 

[Popeyejones]

1. learn how to step up in the pocket. So many times I see ends coming around the edge that he could just step up to avoid but instead runs backwards for 10 yards.

I've harped on this for a few years now (by last year I was just perplexed by it), but although it hasn't really shown up in the stats yet, he was stepping up into the pocket last week more than I've ever seen him do before. Albeit when he did so they were stupid clean and empty pockets, and he'd still only give it one read in there before trying to take off through the middle (how he got sacked, and more or less "sacked" for a 1 or 2 yard gain a second time).

Still though, I think he might be taking a step in the right direction in this regard (it's a process).

 

[lobohawk]

He definitely has room to grow, but most of the areas he needs to progress in depend upon experience. Rogers is probably the youngest great QB in the league and he's been in for what...eight years? Russell is beginning his fourth. Same with Luck. Both will likely get there, but they aren't going to suddenly be 10 year vets like Brady, Manning, etc. Thus those comparisons are always a bit of a stretch IMO.

You want him to improve his pre-snap reads, knowing correct adjustments, dialing in to hit tighter windows, knowing team/player tendencies and adjust on fly (e.g. mini OC...see the "last play"), etc, etc.

For Russell, it's a race to improve in those areas such that any decrease in mobility doesn't hamper his success. We hope for the day when those two skill sets overlap and he's the ultimate dual threat. Meanwhile he has a bit of a natural hurdle. As an athlete, he can bail to save a play. This leads to it becoming habit, especially when the offense is not built around protecting the QB. Once a habit, it becomes harder to gain experience in the other areas.He appears to be trying to fight this tendency and remain in the pocket, but this leads to thinking more than acting. Like his head is getting in the way of rhythm passing.

This is where I may have some grips about the playcalling. With the work-in-progress OL, the plays sometime seem ill suited to what the offense can actually do.

 

[brimsalabim]

, too tentative and afraid to make mistakes is what I see.

Yep this is what I see as well. Our staff needs to coach him through this.

 

[Atradees]

All RW discussions aside, you won't see growth and improvement behind this OL, unless a miracle occurs and they all of a sudden morph into an average OL.

Hasselback would have been on crutches already. I think RW is amazing. Will be amazing. He needs an average Oline. Why are we having this discussion again still? Tom Cable has to go. He stinks.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

Without making this a referendum on OC's, OL coaches or whether Wilson is good. There are a few things I think would be prudent to look for/expect.

1. This OL was always going to be very inconsistent. At least early on. With some hope that by midseason they'd be more functional. It doesn't make sense to me that there should be an expectation that protection will be solid over these first couple months.

If we expect that, then I would hope that we would adjust the game plan and decision making to account for that. Wilson does hold on to the ball a long time. Trying to wring out every opportunity from every play. The only way to accomplish this, is to throw it to guys that are closely guarded occasionally, or to hold the ball and risk sacks. Obviously we want to risk sacks instead of risking interceptions. And I don't disagree with that.

But I do think it's prudent to accept incompletions more and sacks less. Seattle's third down conversion rates are still poor. And especially so when we suffer a sack in a series of downs. I do think Seattle is better served literally throwing it away (in a manner not to risk grounding) rather than trying to extend plays. At least at this time. Get to the end of the drop and let the thing fly. Because the protection at this point is not where it needs to be consistently to afford the ability to pull it down and run with it. It does seem that more often than not, when Wilson aborts a throw and pulls it down, something bad is more likely to happen than something special. Better protection would make that more feasible. But I don't see why we should expect that right now.

2. Risk aversion.

Seattle is a very risk averse team when it comes to delivering the ball in tight NFL open windows. That's obvious and it's pretty clear that it goes beyond just Wilson. It's a mandate from Pete.

But it does speak to Wilson's growth. Because all other great QBs develop the ability to complete passes effectively to guys that aren't absurdly open. And Wilson is now being paid like a great QB. Which reduces Seattle's ability to retain and go get talent elsewhere on the team to make allowances for that limitation. The next step for Wilson in my estimation is to become more comfortable with delivering passes to players that are less open, and still completing those passes. Instead of hitching on his throw and pulling it down -- delivering the ball and getting gains.

As constructed now, we are not well equipped to overcome negative plays. Whether it's a procedural penalty or a sack. These tend to be drive killers for us.

It does seem, that Wilson isn't yet at that point in his development that he completely trusts what he sees. There is some significant hesitancy to his delivery of the football. His decision making is still constipated. I do give him credit, that he doesn't make poor decisions as a result. He's already proven that much. But it does seem apparent that there are opportunities he's letting slip -- the kinds of opportunities that other good QBs still make good on.

If Seattle's protection was better -- I think Wilson would shine much more than other good QBs. His ability to make sound decisions and extend plays is amongst the league's best. But at least for the short term -- it doesn't appear we'll have the kind of pass protection that is needed to really leverage Wilson's unique strengths. And I'd like to see a systemic/game plan adjustment to that reality. Right now, he doesn't have the rushing opportunities on his drops because rushers are too frequently winning one on one battles too cleanly. I don't think it's a scheme thing. Teams have been spying him and scheming their rush for years. The issues I've seen early on appear to just be executing protection at a basic level.

If there is one complaint I could have, it's that Wilson doesn't seem to be accounting for the blitz as well this year. I can't say if it's unaware at the pre snap level. Or if it's lack of effectiveness with hot routes/blitz beaters. There could be a number of reasons for that -- didn't see it coming, didn't plan for it on the play call, receivers missed their hot route read. For whatever reason the blitzes seem to be more effective this year. I've not really looked at it closely so I am loathe to even raise the criticism. Just a generic and weak impression.

 

[HuskerHawk]

The idea that Wilson is ridiculously averse to throwing into tight coverage annoys me greatly. Does he avoid taking risks more than some in the league? Sure. But the whole thing has grown more legs than what actually happens in reality. I thought one of his greatest skills in college and early on in the league was his uncanny ability to know when and when not to try and force something. That's why he produced nice numbers in addition to great efficiency. I'm gonna keep pounding the table on this, but he became more conservative when our personnel changed. Losing great players of the ball and body positioners in Rice, Tate, and Miller hurt. I also think Bevell became more conservative as a play caller when #11 arrived. Now that our receiving corps is getting up to standard, I think you'll see RW trust his guys more and more as the year goes on.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Doesn't matter, many have already decided that Wilson can't do anything right. Makes zero sense, but whatever gets you thru the day :lol:

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

Doesn't matter, many have already decided that Wilson can't do anything right. Makes zero sense, but whatever gets you thru the day :lol:

You're absolutely right, and I often wonder why that is. Suppose that's fruit for a different thread.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

Was hearing comparisons between elite QBs and the ones that are aspiring to be. I think they were talking about Rodgers, Manning, Brady. So RW has many qualities from being a great team mate, leader, 1-0 and all of that which are very positive. He also has the scrambling ability where he can give defense fits, but the down side to that is, he can give WR's and Oline fits too, like not knowing where to create a pocket or where should a WR be when the QB is scrambling. In the long run, this is not very sustainable as the plays that are made become more plays that were not planned or meant to be. The more we go that direction, the more unpredictable it will be for us and for the opposing team, which puts us in a situation of slow starts and all of that. Eventually individual talent, and resolve with mental grit wins us games as it progresses. My intent on opening this thread is , what is the next chapter for RW for growing into the next level. How can he be the QB who improves everyone around him in the offense. Instead of taking his feet and running. When can he become a guy, where even an average WR, or a WR with talent, both excel around him. I want to purely focus on RW and not any other factors like Bevell, OC and stuff like that.

Here is some that come to my mind, I don't know if he needs to improve in all of this, but it is an interesting discussion to have.

1. Reading the defense
2. Pre snap adjustments
3. Throwing accuracy
4. Throwing in tight windows
5. Staying in pocket and letting the play develop
6. Red zone efficiency
7. Trusting his receivers
8. Clock management
9. Kill the Read option, opposing teams game planning better
10. Protecting the ball

Making plays on the scramble is sustainable. The recievers learn how to do it, so new guys like Lockette and Graham are getting better every game. It's completely unique, so it's a mind-f*** to teams that have never played the Seahawks. Teams that are familiar with us can defend it better (in our div), but since we own this division and, for the last two years, the NFC, I dare say they still can't stop it. Green Bay knows all about Wilson's scrambling, and they still couldn't stop him last year in the playoffs. So, I disagree with that point.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

Russell Wilson is a good player, and playmaker but he is rough as a passer. I've noticed that his ball placement is not always there, especially on certain routes. Of course, we all know that he is not very good at managing the pocket. Last game, two of the sacks could be directly attributed to Wilson himself. The first one was him backpedaling, and then realizing "oh maybe I should step up into the pocket". This led to Wilson running himself right into a defender. If this were somebody such as Brady, or Manning it would've been a non-issue. They would've stepped up in the pocket and continued to survey the field. The second sack that can be directly attributed to him was when he actually had a good pocket. He's sitting in the pocket, and he decides to try to take off up the middle of the field. The end result is a sack, and loss of yardage.

The line is bad this year, but Wilson needs to help them out more. I contend that even if Wilson had a good line, he would still be taking a lot of sacks due to his play style. I hope that he can find a balance similar to what Ben Roethlisberger did. Yes, he can extend the play, but he also has an internal timer in his head that tells him "okay now it's time to get rid of the ball" That is not something I see with Wilson.

I also think he needs to do better recognizing the blitz. He can beat free rushers with his legs, however many times they also result in a negative play. I remember this is something that Jon Gruden criticized him on during his sit down with him before draft day. I still see Wilson struggling with the very same things that Gruden mentioned, the playcalling doesn't help either. I do not know how much leeway he has to change the play, but running a slow developing play action into a blitz does nothing to help Wilson.

The last thing I want to mention is hesitation to throw to receivers unless they are open by two steps. This does nothing for our offense, I'm not asking him to do the famous Rex Grossman F IT I'M GOING DEEP, and promptly throw it into triple coverage. I just want him to take advantage of the windows that are there. I see that Wilson identifies many of our open receivers, it's just a question of "are they open enough for him".

If Wilson masters the things I mention above he will be on a level that is on par with Rodgers in my opinion. I also do not think that Wilson is getting the tutelage that he needs from our QB coach, Bevell, and Carroll. I'm also questioning whether Carroll, and Bevell are trying to pound a square peg in a round hole with the way the offense is structured. I do not think the structure of this offense is conducive to Wilson's growth as a passer.

As to staying in a viable pocket: On regular TV you can't see the recievers, so the play could've been killed by nobody getting open downfield, and not because he ran out of a viable pocket. Without seeing the receivers you have no idea what really happens on a play.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

All RW discussions aside, you won't see growth and improvement behind this OL, unless a miracle occurs and they all of a sudden morph into an average OL.

I disagree. I think they have massive potential. The guys converted from defense were done so because of their athleticism and toughness. The big switch-around was done before the end of preseason--all of them are still playing new positions. I think these guys will see growth every game. Just playing together will make them better.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

All RW discussions aside, you won't see growth and improvement behind this OL, unless a miracle occurs and they all of a sudden morph into an average OL.

I keep seeing this argument over the years, it's the O-Line! Yes, it is true that the O-Line does play a part, but so does Wilson consistently holding the ball longer than any QB in the NFL. So does Wilson walking himself into a sack, or big hit. Even if Wilson had a good O-Line I do not think they would look all that great with him behind center, it's just the nature of his game, and ability to improvise. That also comes at a cost, negative plays.

He'd look like he did in NC State and Wisconsin where he had the best passer rating in NCAA history.

Career 63% passer in the NFL and this season 70%. If ony he wasn't such a rough passer with these unbelieveable Olines and great WR's he has had in his career.

Holding onto the ball, taking sacks? I take that every time since he is the best playmaker I have ever seen from the QB position and had one of the best first 3 years of a career of all time. I take all of it.

Agree! GO HAWKS!

 

[cacksman]

The QB should keep the ball 50% of the time on read option plays, that's the only way that scheme works. If the D knows he's going to hand it off to Marshawn 80% of the time, then that's the way they're going to go with the play..........which is why it hasn't been as successful for us this year.

:177692: This is so wrong, it's comical.

 

[hawk45]

The QB should keep the ball 50% of the time on read option plays, that's the only way that scheme works. If the D knows he's going to hand it off to Marshawn 80% of the time, then that's the way they're going to go with the play..........which is why it hasn't been as successful for us this year.

:177692: This is so wrong, it's comical.

I dunno, if the point of the read option is to get the defense worrying about who has the ball, it seems logical that a credible threat of either option occurring has to be established. Especially when the ends are crashing consistently during a game.

 

[HuskerHawk]

What people continue to fail to realize, despite RW saying it many times in the past, is that a lot of those plays that look like read option, actually aren't. They are completely designed runs with no read element. I'd say at least half are of this variety.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Russell Wilson is a good player, and playmaker but he is rough as a passer. I've noticed that his ball placement is not always there, especially on certain routes. Of course, we all know that he is not very good at managing the pocket. Last game, two of the sacks could be directly attributed to Wilson himself. The first one was him backpedaling, and then realizing "oh maybe I should step up into the pocket". This led to Wilson running himself right into a defender. If this were somebody such as Brady, or Manning it would've been a non-issue. They would've stepped up in the pocket and continued to survey the field. The second sack that can be directly attributed to him was when he actually had a good pocket. He's sitting in the pocket, and he decides to try to take off up the middle of the field. The end result is a sack, and loss of yardage.

The line is bad this year, but Wilson needs to help them out more. I contend that even if Wilson had a good line, he would still be taking a lot of sacks due to his play style. I hope that he can find a balance similar to what Ben Roethlisberger did. Yes, he can extend the play, but he also has an internal timer in his head that tells him "okay now it's time to get rid of the ball" That is not something I see with Wilson.

I also think he needs to do better recognizing the blitz. He can beat free rushers with his legs, however many times they also result in a negative play. I remember this is something that Jon Gruden criticized him on during his sit down with him before draft day. I still see Wilson struggling with the very same things that Gruden mentioned, the playcalling doesn't help either. I do not know how much leeway he has to change the play, but running a slow developing play action into a blitz does nothing to help Wilson.

The last thing I want to mention is hesitation to throw to receivers unless they are open by two steps. This does nothing for our offense, I'm not asking him to do the famous Rex Grossman F IT I'M GOING DEEP, and promptly throw it into triple coverage. I just want him to take advantage of the windows that are there. I see that Wilson identifies many of our open receivers, it's just a question of "are they open enough for him".

If Wilson masters the things I mention above he will be on a level that is on par with Rodgers in my opinion. I also do not think that Wilson is getting the tutelage that he needs from our QB coach, Bevell, and Carroll. I'm also questioning whether Carroll, and Bevell are trying to pound a square peg in a round hole with the way the offense is structured. I do not think the structure of this offense is conducive to Wilson's growth as a passer.

As to staying in a viable pocket: On regular TV you can't see the recievers, so the play could've been killed by nobody getting open downfield, and not because he ran out of a viable pocket. Without seeing the receivers you have no idea what really happens on a play.

He had a very nice pocket, nobody was even in the general vicinity of Wilson. He should've hung in the pocket instead of took off. That sack was 100 percent on Wilson, even without seeing the receivers that play was a big mistake. He didn't have a clear hole to run through, despite having good protection he immediately took off with the ball.

I think the biggest thing Wilson needs to master is pre-snap adjustments as others have said. I think this is the biggest weakness in his game at the moment. I'm seeing far too many mismatches such as Graham being one on one with with defensive ends, I'm seeing far too many guys coming of the edge free. It's up to Wilson to identify where the rushers are coming from, and change the protection, then decide which would be the best place to go with the ball. It's up to Wilson to identify the mismatches and go with it. I've seen a few instances of Graham going against a linebacker one on one, that kind of matchup is not favorable for the opposing defense. Wilson needs to learn how to recognize that.