The elephant in the room (Graham)

hawknation2015

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hawk45":28fjqkm5 said:
DavidSeven":28fjqkm5 said:
Not even pass-happy New Orleans made him a complete WR conversion. The ratio is about what they had him at.

I think you would be losing something vertically by giving him all the reps at split-end, and to be honest, Baldwin and Lockett are probably better slot receivers. Of course, you mix him in everywhere, but having him play 100% at Split-End/Slot is not realistic, because you are taking away reps from players who are better suited for those roles beyond the redzone.

If he can't handle 10 blocking snaps, then that is a player problem, not a scheme problem.

I agree it's a player problem but we've seen what he does with his snaps inline. He's what we have. Even if we lost a little vertically, not necessarily a given as the defenses rotate over to cover him, wouldn't we gain in the middle of the field where he catches everything and is a mismatch on anyone?

Not saying 100% at SE but a lot more than we're seeing.

Oh absolutely . . . what are you really losing vertically by using Graham at Split End? The two times that Kearse is capable of getting open when the line has given Wilson enough time to find him? Graham is the best WR on the roster . . . as such, he should be taking #1 reps at SE.

60% reps in the slot is a baby step in the right direction. In this offense, Graham's abilities will be maximized with more reps at SE.
 

justafan

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When you have a problem with a player putting out low effort this is where you team leaders need to get involved and let him know thats not how its done here.
I wouldnt reward him with changing the offense to suit his moods.
He is good but not if he is going to lay down and get other players killed when he lays down on a blitz or half asses a block
 

hawknation2015

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justafan":2td1uj1e said:
When you have a problem with a player putting out low effort this is where you team leaders need to get involved and let him know thats not how its done here.
I wouldnt reward him with changing the offense to suit his moods.
He is good but not if he is going to lay down and get other players killed when he lays down on a blitz or half asses a block


Using Graham at Split End is NOT changing the offense. Why do people keep saying that? Using him as an in-line TE is changing the offense because he not a good in-line TE.
 

hawk45

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justafan":2brqbrz2 said:
When you have a problem with a player putting out low effort this is where you team leaders need to get involved and let him know thats not how its done here.
I wouldnt reward him with changing the offense to suit his moods.
He is good but not if he is going to lay down and get other players killed when he lays down on a blitz or half asses a block

I guess I don't see the solution of having him do what he sucks at or is unwilling to do as one that is likely to result in the best results.

He's a legitimate mismatch every time and number 1 caliber weapon on offense. If he doesn't fit the system, that ship sailed when we traded for him.
 

justafan

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I dont see value in catering to a player who tries when he wants to.Harvin at least played hard and showed some toughness

Whether he wants to or not this O or any running game needs everyone to step up and block regardless of their position.Wr and TEs block downfield.They need to chip,they may need to recognise a blitz and pick it up instead of getting the RB thrown for a loss on 2nd and 4 like the video shows.Its all about having the work ethic and character to do whats best for the TEAM and not what Jimmy wants to do.

Or just send him wide and he can talk to the chain gang when the ball isnt designed to come his way.
 

hawknation2015

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justafan":3lqcizit said:
I dont see value in catering to a player who tries when he wants to.Harvin at least played hard and showed some toughness

Whether he wants to or not this O or any running game needs everyone to step up and block regardless of their position.Wr and TEs block downfield.They need to chip,they may need to recognise a blitz and pick it up instead of getting the RB thrown for a loss on 2nd and 4 like the video shows.Its all about having the work ethic and character to do whats best for the TEAM and not what Jimmy wants to do.

Or just send him wide and he can talk to the chain gang when the ball isnt designed to come his way.

That's a defeatist attitude. Some guys just aren't great blockers . . . he is, however, an exceptional receiver, particularly on the outside. SE would be a natural fit for him in this offense.
 

DyllPickle1

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The coaching staff doesn't want to use Graham yet. If we start throwing 40-50 yard bombs to him in the beginning of the season, all the teams have plays to study upon. The coaching staff wants to keep him contained, so by the end of the season we'll be lighting it up.
 

justafan

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So the IM IN motto only matters to everyone but Jimmy.If Jimmy dont want to block Jimmy dont block and thats ok with you.

He is my least favorite type of athlete,Blocking is an attitude and desire.He has all the talent to do whatever he wants on the field including blocking when we run the ball or recognize and pick up a blitz.

Anything less than doing what is his best on any given play is saying he isnt all in.Which is what i believe is the problem.
We have Probowlers playing special teams because they are ALL IN.
 

hawknation2015

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justafan":1lp5kls8 said:
So the IM IN motto only matters to everyone but Jimmy.If Jimmy dont want to block Jimmy dont block and thats ok with you.

He is my least favorite type of athlete,Blocking is an attitude and desire.He has all the talent to do whatever he wants on the field including blocking when we run the ball or recognize and pick up a blitz.

Anything less than doing what is his best on any given play is saying he isnt all in.Which is what i believe is the problem.
We have Probowlers playing special teams because they are ALL IN.

You are assuming it is just about attitude and has nothing to do with his aptitude. Graham looks physically awkward with his hand on the ground. Why don't you ask Chris Matthews to line up with his hand on the ground and attempt to block a defensive lineman? Why didn't we ask Mike Williams to go in-line? You wouldn't, because they would have no aptitude for it.

It's about putting your players in a position where they will succeed. So far, Bevell and the rest of the coaches have failed at that with Graham. I can only hope that changes, and that the BS arguments against it being spouted here do not win the day.
 

justafan

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We just have different opinions on what type of players made this team champions.
 

hawk45

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justafan":3dv6ce13 said:
We just have different opinions on what type of players made this team champions.

I don't know that we do (not that your post was directed at me). What I'm differing on is the best way to proceed with a player who has a lot to contribute, and who is going to be on the roster whether we like it or not.

This is not a Harvin situation where our entire offense crumbles if we split him out more.
 

Spin Doctor

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The acquisition of Graham was confusing for me from day one. I knew what we did to Miller when he came to Seattle, we utilized the man like a blocking TE. This is okay, since he was a very good blocker, but on the other hand we completely marginalized his receiving capabilities. In Oakland he was considered one of the better pass catching TEs. He was very good at chipping would-be pass rushers, and finding his way into the hole in the zone. Miller was a great outlet receiver, yet he remained unused in this capacity in Seattle. This baffled me as a fan, because I remembered what he was able to do in Oakland.

I understand that Britt, Breno, and Carpenter needed help over at RT, however -- chipping the pass rusher and going out as an outlet receiver especially against the blitz can be just as, if not more effective than just staying in to block. We're seeing the same story repeat with Jimmy Graham. I'm seeing him on the bench during key third downs, most of the time he is lining up off tackle, and he is being asked to do a lot of blocking -- a skillset that he was never known for. In New Orleans he was actually split out wide more than he was put off tackle. He was a hybrid wide receiver of sorts. I understand Pete Carroll and Bevell saying that they won't change their scheme for one player, but on the other hand does that mean that you're going to commit to pounding a square peg into a round hole?

Jimmy Graham is easily our most talented receiver, and most physically imposing. We are not taking advantage of this mans amazing skillset. Our third down, and red zone percentage is among the worst in the NFL right now. This should not be happening with a receiver such as Jimmy Graham available to us. A receiver who can create separation just by virtue of his large body, a receiver that has an insane catch radius, and the ability to make very difficult catches seem easy.
 

kf3339

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Spin Doctor":2wvdv8uc said:
The acquisition of Graham was confusing for me from day one. I knew what we did to Miller when he came to Seattle, we utilized the man like a blocking TE. This is okay, since he was a very good blocker, but on the other hand we completely marginalized his receiving capabilities. In Oakland he was considered one of the better pass catching TEs. He was very good at chipping would-be pass rushers, and finding his way into the hole in the zone. Miller was a great outlet receiver, yet he remained unused in this capacity in Seattle. This baffled me as a fan, because I remembered what he was able to do in Oakland.

I understand that Britt, Breno, and Carpenter needed help over at RT, however -- chipping the pass rusher and going out as an outlet receiver especially against the blitz can be just as, if not more effective than just staying in to block. We're seeing the same story repeat with Jimmy Graham. I'm seeing him on the bench during key third downs, most of the time he is lining up off tackle, and he is being asked to do a lot of blocking -- a skillset that he was never known for. In New Orleans he was actually split out wide more than he was put off tackle. He was a hybrid wide receiver of sorts. I understand Pete Carroll and Bevell saying that they won't change their scheme for one player, but on the other hand does that mean that you're going to commit to pounding a square peg into a round hole?

Jimmy Graham is easily our most talented receiver, and most physically imposing. We are not taking advantage of this mans amazing skillset. Our third down, and red zone percentage is among the worst in the NFL right now. This should not be happening with a receiver such as Jimmy Graham available to us. A receiver who can create separation just by virtue of his large body, a receiver that has an insane catch radius, and the ability to make very difficult catches seem easy.

Which is exactly why the problem to me is with PC first and foremost. If he can't see your points then the trade was another serious mistake on his part. If he does see it but can't get Bevell to make it work then they both are to blame.
 

akscoundrel

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Meanwhile he has more receptions than gronkowski, olsen, eifert, miller, etc, is tied for being the team leader in touchdowns, etc. All the while defenses haven't had to focus on lynch.

Some of y'all need to slow down. Yes, we need to focus on our o line (which we've been saying for years, so should we really be expecting anything else?), but it is possible to focus on our o line and leave graham out of the conversation. FYI...

Lynch, graham, Baldwin, lockett and Richardson on the field at once? Hnnnghh
 

Spin Doctor

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akscoundrel":346lpgn9 said:
Meanwhile he has more receptions than gronkowski, olsen, eifert, miller, etc, is tied for being the team leader in touchdowns, etc. All the while defenses haven't had to focus on lynch.

Some of y'all need to slow down. Yes, we need to focus on our o line (which we've been saying for years, so should we really be expecting anything else?), but it is possible to focus on our o line and leave graham out of the conversation. FYI...

Lynch, graham, Baldwin, lockett and Richardson on the field at once? Hnnnghh
Gronk has two and half times more yards, two more touchdowns more than double the yards per average. There are 11 TE's with the same or more yards, there are over 28 TE's with a higher yards per average, and there are 15 TE's with two or more touchdowns. Receptions are the only category that he is top 10 in at this moment.
 

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Spin Doctor":1nb7bogb said:
akscoundrel":1nb7bogb said:
Meanwhile he has more receptions than gronkowski, olsen, eifert, miller, etc, is tied for being the team leader in touchdowns, etc. All the while defenses haven't had to focus on lynch.

Some of y'all need to slow down. Yes, we need to focus on our o line (which we've been saying for years, so should we really be expecting anything else?), but it is possible to focus on our o line and leave graham out of the conversation. FYI...

Lynch, graham, Baldwin, lockett and Richardson on the field at once? Hnnnghh
Gronk has two and half times more yards, two more touchdowns more than double the yards per average. There are 11 TE's with the same or more yards, there are over 28 TE's with a higher yards per average, and there are 15 TE's with two or more touchdowns. Receptions are the only category that he is top 10 in at this moment.

For starters, 174 is not 2 and a half times smaller than 308. Secondly, most those numbers came from the game against Pittsburgh, when they decided it was best to leave him completely unguarded all game. They're bloated stats, and the rest of the league is starting to catch up. And jimmy is right in the thick of it. Stats can b framed however you like. But one touchdown, and he passes up most of those eleven.

Without beast mode mind you. Take a step back and examine what exactly that has meant...
 

akscoundrel

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akscoundrel":3lkewd1p said:
Spin Doctor":3lkewd1p said:
akscoundrel":3lkewd1p said:
Meanwhile he has more receptions than gronkowski, olsen, eifert, miller, etc, is tied for being the team leader in touchdowns, etc. All the while defenses haven't had to focus on lynch.

Some of y'all need to slow down. Yes, we need to focus on our o line (which we've been saying for years, so should we really be expecting anything else?), but it is possible to focus on our o line and leave graham out of the conversation. FYI...

Lynch, graham, Baldwin, lockett and Richardson on the field at once? Hnnnghh
Gronk has two and half times more yards, two more touchdowns more than double the yards per average. There are 11 TE's with the same or more yards, there are over 28 TE's with a higher yards per average, and there are 15 TE's with two or more touchdowns. Receptions are the only category that he is top 10 in at this moment.

For starters, 174 is not 2 and a half times smaller than 308. Secondly, most those numbers came from the game against Pittsburgh, when they decided it was best to leave him completely unguarded most of the game. They're bloated stats, and the rest of the league is starting to catch up. And jimmy is right in the thick of it. Stats can b framed however you like. But one touchdown, and he passes up most of those eleven.

Without beast mode mind you. Take a step back and examine what exactly that has meant...
 

Hawkpower

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akscoundrel":2c73yv4k said:
Spin Doctor":2c73yv4k said:
akscoundrel":2c73yv4k said:
Meanwhile he has more receptions than gronkowski, olsen, eifert, miller, etc, is tied for being the team leader in touchdowns, etc. All the while defenses haven't had to focus on lynch.

Some of y'all need to slow down. Yes, we need to focus on our o line (which we've been saying for years, so should we really be expecting anything else?), but it is possible to focus on our o line and leave graham out of the conversation. FYI...

Lynch, graham, Baldwin, lockett and Richardson on the field at once? Hnnnghh
Gronk has two and half times more yards, two more touchdowns more than double the yards per average. There are 11 TE's with the same or more yards, there are over 28 TE's with a higher yards per average, and there are 15 TE's with two or more touchdowns. Receptions are the only category that he is top 10 in at this moment.

For starters, 174 is not 2 and a half times smaller than 308. Secondly, most those numbers came from the game against Pittsburgh, when they decided it was best to leave him completely unguarded all game. They're bloated stats, and the rest of the league is starting to catch up. And jimmy is right in the thick of it. Stats can b framed however you like. But one touchdown, and he passes up most of those eleven.

Without beast mode mind you. Take a step back and examine what exactly that has meant...



Exactly.

People keep harping on how we arent utilizing him, and yet his stats at this point of the year are nearly identical to his stats last year.....and he is our leading receiver.

No need to push a narrative that isnt even true.
 

jayhawkk

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[tweet]https://twitter.com/DavisHsuSeattle/status/651506231840927744[/tweet]
 

WilsonMVP

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AsylumGuido":rq8rgdhr said:
timmat":rq8rgdhr said:
seahawk12thman":rq8rgdhr said:
This is Pitiful:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/jailposejesus/status/651209422249717760[/tweet]

That clip is pretty damning with regards to heart and effort.

We have dozens of those same clips from New Orleans. I warned y'all.

Well at least hes on the field so far for us..unlike another player :D
 
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