The end of football will look like this.

[chris98251]

There will be some company somewhere that will insure High School athletics, WHY? because there is billions to be made by all the parents wanting their little Suzie and or Jimmy to be the next Russell Wilson or King Felix, Ronda Rousey or whomever..

That's not how insurance works.

There is no "future" monetary benefit for an insurance liability carrier for the less than 1% of the kids who are actually going to be professional athletes.

Insurance is cold hard actuarial math. Is there a formula based on the risk where we can make money?

The more health risks involved, the more being on the losing end of lawsuits for CTE and other long term football injuries over decades, and that profit margin evaporates, and that line of business is no longer viable.........and when that happens, that sport or business goes away.

Unless it's self insured, or like I posted above the NCAA and NFL assume all insurance protection under their liability umbrella for all high school youth sports........or they agree to pay the premiums for the selected school districts.

Which is what I think will happen if this story ever comes to fruition and insurance carriers bail on school districts and youth leagues.

Your not insuring for life, it's one season at a time for an injury that year. With the millions of kids that play at all levels you don't think they can make money? Call it the SR22 Filing for sports.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

There will be some company somewhere that will insure High School athletics, WHY? because there is billions to be made by all the parents wanting their little Suzie and or Jimmy to be the next Russell Wilson or King Felix, Ronda Rousey or whomever..

That's not how insurance works.

There is no "future" monetary benefit for an insurance liability carrier for the less than 1% of the kids who are actually going to be professional athletes.

Insurance is cold hard actuarial math. Is there a formula based on the risk where we can make money?

The more health risks involved, the more being on the losing end of lawsuits for CTE and other long term football injuries over decades, and that profit margin evaporates, and that line of business is no longer viable.........and when that happens, that sport or business goes away.

Unless it's self insured, or like I posted above the NCAA and NFL assume all insurance protection under their liability umbrella for all high school youth sports........or they agree to pay the premiums for the selected school districts.

Which is what I think will happen if this story ever comes to fruition and insurance carriers bail on school districts and youth leagues.

Your not insuring for life, it's one season at a time for an injury that year. With the millions of kids that play at all levels you don't think they can make money? Call it the SR22 Filing for sports.

This is what I do for a living Chris, I own an insurance/investment agency. So I understand the inner workings of the insurance world.

Every insurance carrier has markets (auto, home, life, commercial, whatever), and every market has it's own actuarial bean counters paid to study and analyze risk data in order to come up with rates/premiums.

Then those are taken to the re-insurers, who are the financial backing of the insurance industry. Those investment/holding companies are the real underwriters of insurance. They dictate whether the market is viable and profitable. If they do, they underwrite and back the insurance carrier.

That's what the article is saying, that there will come a critical mass point when the risk of all these long term injuries and lawsuits being paid out are no longer a viable market for insurance companies that handle large commercial liability policies like the ones youth leagues and school districts take out in order to protect themselves.

What you're talking about with the future kids being famous and rich, and the parents still wanting their kids to play sports? I have no idea how that's relevant in the least. Has absolutely nothing to do with how the insurance world works.

 

[sdog1981]

These are insurance policies that are paid by tax dollars. If the precedence is set in California states will fall in line. The poor sates in the west will drop football so fast your head will spin, Idaho, Montanna, Both Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming, Iowa, and New Mexico. Politics gets involved too and since Washington and Oregon have similar political leadership they will join too. We are talking about high school football gone on the west coast. Football will not be gone but it will be highly localized in the southeast and many of those states could find themselves in trouble too.

 

[Uncle Si]

These are insurance policies that are paid by tax dollars. If the precedence is set in California states will fall in line. The poor sates in the west will drop football so fast your head will spin, Idaho, Montanna, Both Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming, Iowa, and New Mexico. Politics gets involved too and since Washington and Oregon have similar political leadership they will join too. We are talking about high school football gone on the west coast. Football will not be gone but it will be highly localized in the southeast and many of those states could find themselves in trouble too.

Some are, some are not.

Youth leagues are not funded by tax payer dollars. Schools are, but i imagine across a wide spectrum, not just sports. Our soccer academy had an insurer against litigation, not to support the players.

The issue of protection is from lawsuit, not injury. This is what i was duscussing above.

The biggest threat to youth sports is poor management, training, education and information.

 

[chris98251]

But even when I played we had to pay for a separate insurance policy.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

But even when I played we had to pay for a separate insurance policy.

Those were little personal medical insurance policies that covered you for injuries, lost equipment and came with a little general liability.

They were big in the 70's and 80's, and didn't cover a whole lot, or had really low limits. That's why they cost your parent's only like $20 a season.

This article is speaking to the large commercial general liability policies that leagues and school districts have to take out each year.

 

[sdog1981]

This article is speaking to the large commercial general liability policies that leagues and school districts have to take out each year.

This 1000 times this. This is the lynchpin for the entire youth sports system. If the high schools drop it that will make the rates go up for state colleges too. Like I was attempting to say, if football goes away it will be because of insurance companies stopped issuing policies.

 

[Uncle Si]

This article is speaking to the large commercial general liability policies that leagues and school districts have to take out each year.

This 1000 times this. This is the lynchpin for the entire youth sports system. If the high schools drop it that will make the rates go up for state colleges too. Like I was attempting to say, if football goes away it will be because of insurance companies stopped issuing policies.

Insurance rates from youth sports (schools insurances cover more than just sports) are based on liability.

That liability is based on what parents waive when they sign up against what their child encounters on the field. This does not include play. It includes irresponsible actions of coaches, school and league officials.

Johnny getting a torn ACL is not the schools problem. Neither is a concussion. The issue will be what parents are willing to accept and waive to let their kids play. The current issue is if plsying football is so inherently dangerous that escaping long term injury requires taking a great deal of risk.

The concussion issue has liability questiins because its long term impact is still unknown. But what if it is? What if football says "this shit may screw you up long term." Parents sign the waiver or they dont.

Participation will determine the future of sports. Football will have to decide soon if it wants to acknowledge the long term effects of concussions and manage the future or keep ignoring it while parents and in this case, insurance companies, walk away

 

[sdog1981]

This article is speaking to the large commercial general liability policies that leagues and school districts have to take out each year.

This 1000 times this. This is the lynchpin for the entire youth sports system. If the high schools drop it that will make the rates go up for state colleges too. Like I was attempting to say, if football goes away it will be because of insurance companies stopped issuing policies.

Insurance rates from youth sports (schools insurances cover more than just sports) are based on liability.

That liability is based on what parents waive when they sign up.

The thing with all waivers is this. If you can prove in court that the entity issuing the wavier knew what was on the waiver was going to happen to you then the waiver is null and void. No one is going to sue because of a knee injury. But 10 years later 28-year-old Jonny can sue his school district because he has "CTE like symptoms". Also, many of these liability policies cover the here and now of a sports season. These football lawsuits are based on head injuries that occurred in some cases decades ago. If an insurance company is like "we don't want to be on the hook for 30 years because we insured one season of football" then they will walk away and the premiums will rise.

On your second point, many parents are pressuring school districts about football to the point that New Jersey made football very unsafe because they are limiting the amount of tackling practices a team can have during the week. One season of carnage will raise the insurance rates in that state.

 

[Uncle Si]

This article is speaking to the large commercial general liability policies that leagues and school districts have to take out each year.

This 1000 times this. This is the lynchpin for the entire youth sports system. If the high schools drop it that will make the rates go up for state colleges too. Like I was attempting to say, if football goes away it will be because of insurance companies stopped issuing policies.

Insurance rates from youth sports (schools insurances cover more than just sports) are based on liability.

That liability is based on what parents waive when they sign up.

The thing with all waivers is this. If you can prove in court that the entity issuing the wavier knew what was on the waiver was going to happen to you then the waiver is null and void. No one is going to sue because of a knee injury. But 10 years later 28-year-old Jonny can sue his school district because he has "CTE like symptoms". Also, many of these liability policies cover the here and now of a sports season. These football lawsuits are based on head injuries that occurred in some cases decades ago. If an insurance company is like "we don't want to be on the hook for 30 years because we insured one season of football" then they will walk away and the premiums will rise.

On your second point, many parents are pressuring school districts about football to the point that New Jersey made football very unsafe because they are limiting the amount of tackling practices a team can have during the week. One season of carnage will raise the insurance rates in that state.

Right, but what I'm saying is the waivers may change to acknowledge the inherent future risks of playing football. That will force parents to accept these risks and sign off on them... effectively what they are doing now anyways, but without litigation in the end.

It will then be up to parents to decide if they want their kids playing football, something we are already seeing.

 

[chris98251]

But even when I played we had to pay for a separate insurance policy.

Those were little personal medical insurance policies that covered you for injuries, lost equipment and came with a little general liability.

They were big in the 70's and 80's, and didn't cover a whole lot, or had really low limits. That's why they cost your parent's only like $20 a season.

This article is speaking to the large commercial general liability policies that leagues and school districts have to take out each year.

My insurance to play back in 77 was 110 dollars. Not 20, that was a lot of money back then.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

But even when I played we had to pay for a separate insurance policy.

Those were little personal medical insurance policies that covered you for injuries, lost equipment and came with a little general liability.

They were big in the 70's and 80's, and didn't cover a whole lot, or had really low limits. That's why they cost your parent's only like $20 a season.

This article is speaking to the large commercial general liability policies that leagues and school districts have to take out each year.

My insurance to play back in 77 was 110 dollars. Not 20, that was a lot of money back then.

I also played in the 70's, and our individual policies were around $20 per season, so your parent's got screwed.

I still don't follow your point for even bringing this up, it's not what the article or general concern is about. Those policies didn't go towards the league's or school districts massive liability policies.

 

[sdog1981]

Right, but what I'm saying is the waivers may change to acknowledge the inherent future risks of playing football. That will force parents to accept these risks and sign off on them... effectively what they are doing now anyways, but without litigation in the end.

It will then be up to parents to decide if they want their kids playing football, something we are already seeing.

Now I got ya, I agree.

One interesting thing that was on the NFL Network last summer was 7 on 7 flag football with former NFL players. I have a feeling that is going to be the future of the NFL

 

[Uncle Si]

Right, but what I'm saying is the waivers may change to acknowledge the inherent future risks of playing football. That will force parents to accept these risks and sign off on them... effectively what they are doing now anyways, but without litigation in the end.

It will then be up to parents to decide if they want their kids playing football, something we are already seeing.

Now I got ya, I agree.

One interesting thing that was on the NFL Network last summer was 7 on 7 flag football with former NFL players. I have a feeling that is going to be the future of the NFL

Its interesting that you dont hear much from rugby community on this issue. Do those players not suffer the same risks and long term effects?

Ive hrard the pads and helmets actually embolden football players to play with more abandon.

Perhaps thats where the game goes. Limit offensive line play and reduce pads?

 

[mrt144]

The son of one of my co-workers messed up his knee as a sophomore -- he's had 2 surgeries and will likely live with issues his whole life. Part of the reason is he was playing with pain and didn't want to tell anyone because he was afraid he'd miss games. Turns out he never played after that year.

So yeah, you have to wonder if it's worth it.

The problem with this logic is that you can get hurt anywhere. I played football from 3rd grade all the way through college, not one major injury. Sure a broken finger or 2 ( I played CB in HS and safety in college) and some hamstring issues from time to time. But nothing that held me out.

I tore my MCL playing basketball, broke my wrist playing basketball, and knees hurt now from playing basketball. So to put injuries on football, is a bit short sighted by people, you get hurt in all sports. My best friend got hit in the head by a softball running to 1st, cracked his skull.

I know head injuries are a real thing, and I would never argue otherwise. But when people bring up knees and other things getting hurt, that's part of life. Unless you force your kid to just do nothing. Then they get fat, have carpal tunnel, and have diabetes.

It's almost like you think there isn't an entire industry concerned with pricing risk. Come on now buddy.

I too played football in high school and shredded my knee getting trucked by a bowling ball of a full back. Shit happens, but I couldn't play football my junior year and I could barely play baseball in the sophomore spring. And sports were a huge part of my life and kept me going to school despite all the other crap I did to avoid it and get out of it. I lost that, I lost the last thing that kept me hanging on and I was out of high school before the start of junior year. I played through injury regardless, despite the setback because that was the biggest tether to the nominal high school experience I had.

The problem with your 'logic' or interpreting other 'logic' is that you think the will to choose to put yourself in harm's way is no different than accidentally or unintentionally being harmed. If one can avoid risk through will alone to small some degree without a perceived greater loss in value, they generally do. The insurance industry exists to price the risk of both intentional and unintentional actions and outcomes.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Perhaps thats where the game goes. Limit offensive line play and reduce pads?

It's already headed in this direction. Every new "point of emphasis" based rule is moving towards minimizing dangerous contact.

- hitting a defenseless receiver
- putting all your weight on QB
- no initiating contact with helmet
- protecting runners who "give themselves up"
- new kickoff rules

So this all is moving towards a more rugby or seven on seven style of "safer" football. I know some people hate that, they love the old school forearm shiver break your opponents will style, but as this article states, as well as even the league offices now dealing with massive class action CTE and injury lawsuits state.........something has to give for football to continue.

 

[chris98251]

But even when I played we had to pay for a separate insurance policy.

Those were little personal medical insurance policies that covered you for injuries, lost equipment and came with a little general liability.

They were big in the 70's and 80's, and didn't cover a whole lot, or had really low limits. That's why they cost your parent's only like $20 a season.

This article is speaking to the large commercial general liability policies that leagues and school districts have to take out each year.

My insurance to play back in 77 was 110 dollars. Not 20, that was a lot of money back then.

I also played in the 70's, and our individual policies were around $20 per season, so your parent's got screwed.

I still don't follow your point for even bringing this up, it's not what the article or general concern is about. Those policies didn't go towards the league's or school districts massive liability policies.

Or we had better policies that covered more significant injuries, had a kid break his neck and they took care of him and it cost them nothing.

 

[Uncle Si]

Well no Chris... thats not the issue at all. Noone was suing leagues and schools if your idiot coach ran you to exhaustion, played you with significant injury, trained you against all reasonable methods. And they certainly had no idea of the long term effects. Insurance didnt even think about "getting your bell rung." Today its 2 weeks minimum and a release from your doctor.

Insurance policies cover the school or league against injuries that can be deemed as part of the sport.

The issues here are now:
Logterm, previously unknown effects of sports injuries (mainly concussions)
School or youth coaches and staff not being properly trained to manage and/or prepare/mitigate players for injury

The article is saying insurers dont want the risk anymore.

 

[fenderbender123]

We just need to change things up so that people are responsible for their own health.

 

[mrt144]

Those were little personal medical insurance policies that covered you for injuries, lost equipment and came with a little general liability.

They were big in the 70's and 80's, and didn't cover a whole lot, or had really low limits. That's why they cost your parent's only like $20 a season.

This article is speaking to the large commercial general liability policies that leagues and school districts have to take out each year.

My insurance to play back in 77 was 110 dollars. Not 20, that was a lot of money back then.

I also played in the 70's, and our individual policies were around $20 per season, so your parent's got screwed.

I still don't follow your point for even bringing this up, it's not what the article or general concern is about. Those policies didn't go towards the league's or school districts massive liability policies.

Or we had better policies that covered more significant injuries, had a kid break his neck and they took care of him and it cost them nothing.

I swear to god, if we get one more response about how insurance works I'm going to turn this car around.