The Hits Against PC/Schotty Keep Coming

[Jville]

Easy there Bronco Billy. Some of us have already been to that rodeo. It's profitable and cost effective and easy to recycle narratives. That's why it's practice is so popular.

It's just that over time, it has loses it's sparkle and no longer dazzles.

 

[mrt144]

Easy there Bronco Billy. Some of us have already been to that rodeo. It's profitable and cost effective and easy to recycle narratives. That's why it's practice is so popular.

It's just that over time, it has loses it's sparkle and no longer dazzles.

So you're exhausted from bold proclamations of the NFL being different than your papa's NFL because you've heard it every 5 years since the 70s? And thus, upon hearing it for the 10th time you don't even want to take a look into whether there's some sort of basis for a weak inference that passing's value has increased over time while the risks have diminished some because rule changes and serious thought has been devoted by some participants into maximizing it's value and diminishing risk even further?

 

[Jville]

All successful participants in the NFL follow the trends. Paul Allen insisted on consciences building. There is a sizeable effort of consciences building headquartered at the VMAC. And, rest assure, they draw on a lot more input and employ a lot more tools than you or I.

The Seahawks have a much better handle on NFL trends than you or I or any individual publisher.

In my opinion, you've made far too much out of a published article.

 

[Vesuve]

I just read the Seattle PI article with Pete saying "It's on me" again.

He's never been a straight shooter.

 

[mrt144]

All successful participants in the NFL follow the trends. Paul Allen insisted on consciences building. There is a sizeable effort of consciences building headquartered at the VMAC. And, rest assure, they draw on a lot more input and employ a lot more tools than you or I.

The Seahawks have a much better handle on NFL trends than you or I or any individual publisher.

In my opinion, you've made far too much out of a published article.

Perhaps, but that's who I am. I love pattern recognition and then figuring why something doesn't fit a pattern. Even if it's stupidly frivolous.

 

[johnnyfever]

The fundamental error in my opinion from Pete and Schotty is refusing to acknowledge that the climate of the NFL has changed and passing simply is that much better if you devote sufficient cognitive and personnel resources to it. Maybe the investment in tailoring the team towards that is too difficult a task for PC and Schotty to manage.

Or maybe they reached two Super Bowls with a run-first approach when all the same talking heads were predicting Manning to win for the exact same reason.

Remember how we lost 49 by passing instead of running?

Dynamic systems are dynamic. If you think things havent changed since 2013 and 2014 seasons across the league, well, no further need to talk about the future with you.

Well it looks like the answer is easy then! Just hire an elite Offensive Coordinator! Or maybe one of the posters on here could take over and be more creative than Schotty. So easy!

The difference between the Seahawks and teams like the Rams is the Seahawks have been winning for years. So we pick late. Plus, we are paying our players for their success, so we're up against the cap.


The Rams have been losing for years, so they accumulate early round talent.

Then they find a once in a blue moon OC, and add more talent through FA because they have the Cap Space, Then in his 2nd year as Head Coach, his team really improves by adding even MORE talent...because they have a cheap QB (Kind of like Pete and John did way back when).

Meanwhile, the Seahawks overturn the roster and the coaching staff. Everyone is in their 1st season, learning the offense, so how much the team can handle, and bringing it on as fast as they can while keeping the execution level up.

And everyone wants to get rid of Schottenheimer, who went 10-6.

That's what shitty teams do. If they don't win the Superbowl, they get mad and fire people, and they do this over and over and over. Even Patriots fans rebel when their team isn't 16-0. "Tom Brady is too old, Belicheck is behind the times."

We fans can discuss what went wrong, what we'd like to see different, but let's not fool ourselves in to thinking that we have the answer. If we did, we wouldn't be here.

"everyone wants to get rid of schottenheimer"---Where did you get this? Even the gloomiest posters are saying they are fine with seeing if he evolves next year. A lil over-exaggeration on your part dont you think?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I remember new wave narratives from years ago.

I think publishers have fans in the palm of their hand. So much so, they can change a few words around and recycle many of the same narratives down thru the years.

- the forward pass
- pro style
- Air Coryell
- run and shoot
- west coast
- pistol
- spread
- read option
- up tempo
- RPO

People want "innovation," but fail to understand that anything new is just tweaks and variations of these old styles of offense. Both Shanahan and McVay are just running variations of the same offense they both ran in Washington, just tweaked with more motion, play action and deception.

Is that "innovation?" Sure, but it's far more about personnel and deception. So THAT'S really the conversation you guys wanna have if you don't like the way Pete and Schotty call games. You don't want them to be so predictable and stubborn when it comes to scheme and playcalling..........and I agree, and I think Schotty and Pete agree.

But again, this takes personnel. Unlike the Rams and Saints we don't have a great pass pro O-line, and weapons all over the field to spread out defenses that Russell can pick apart. We had ONE above average WR, one injured WR and no dynamic TE's...........and our most versatile pass catching RB (McKissic) was injured most of the year.

 

[Mad Dog]

I just read the Seattle PI article with Pete saying "It's on me" again.

He's never been a straight shooter.

Sure he is. He told everyone that rule number one is "always protect the team" and then he goes out and protects the team. Direct as you can make it.

After 2012 he said the priority was getting the pass rush going. He brought in Avril and Bennett.

After 2017 he said the priority was getting the run game going. We led the league in rushing.

Pete will never put players and coaches under the bus and he has told you that in his rules of conduct. So why call him out on something that is totally appropriate culture. You as a fan have no right to know what he's telling his coaches behind closed doors. Deal with it.

I'd much rather have my leader shoulder the blame than have him point fingers at others. That's a loser mentality.

 

[mrt144]

I remember new wave narratives from years ago.

I think publishers have fans in the palm of their hand. So much so, they can change a few words around and recycle many of the same narratives down thru the years.

- the forward pass
- pro style
- Air Coryell
- run and shoot
- west coast
- pistol
- spread
- read option
- up tempo
- RPO

People want "innovation," but fail to understand that anything new is just tweaks and variations of these old styles of offense. Both Shanahan and McVay are just running variations of the same offense they both ran in Washington, just tweaked with more motion, play action and deception.

Is that "innovation?" Sure, but it's far more about personnel and deception. So THAT'S really the conversation you guys wanna have if you don't like the way Pete and Schotty call games. You don't want them to be so predictable and stubborn when it comes to scheme and playcalling..........and I agree, and I think Schotty and Pete agree.

But again, this takes personnel. Unlike the Rams and Saints we don't have a great pass pro O-line, and weapons all over the field to spread out defenses that Russell can pick apart. We had ONE above average WR, one injured WR and no dynamic TE's...........and our most versatile pass catching RB (McKissic) was injured most of the year.

And as I've said a couple of times - some of these things related to personnel are choices each franchise has made. Even if you account for the risk of ruin from draft picks, the aformentioned Rams and Saints have dedicated a ton of tought, care and both draft capital and FA capital to enable their offenses to sing. It's not the same situation in Seattle by leagues.

I'm not going to hold the past choices against Pete et al too much here. It's really a good opportunity to develop what we liked about our 2018 even more and maybe incorporate the one thing you mentioned and a tangential thing more: Deception and dynamic threats. I don't think the dynamic threats thing is that far out of reach given how Pete seemingly is in love with dynamic RBs that can burn it out of the backfield - just gotta get them doing their thing more often.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I remember new wave narratives from years ago.

I think publishers have fans in the palm of their hand. So much so, they can change a few words around and recycle many of the same narratives down thru the years.

- the forward pass
- pro style
- Air Coryell
- run and shoot
- west coast
- pistol
- spread
- read option
- up tempo
- RPO

People want "innovation," but fail to understand that anything new is just tweaks and variations of these old styles of offense. Both Shanahan and McVay are just running variations of the same offense they both ran in Washington, just tweaked with more motion, play action and deception.

Is that "innovation?" Sure, but it's far more about personnel and deception. So THAT'S really the conversation you guys wanna have if you don't like the way Pete and Schotty call games. You don't want them to be so predictable and stubborn when it comes to scheme and playcalling..........and I agree, and I think Schotty and Pete agree.

But again, this takes personnel. Unlike the Rams and Saints we don't have a great pass pro O-line, and weapons all over the field to spread out defenses that Russell can pick apart. We had ONE above average WR, one injured WR and no dynamic TE's...........and our most versatile pass catching RB (McKissic) was injured most of the year.

And as I've said a couple of times - some of these things related to personnel are choices each franchise has made. Even if you account for the risk of ruin from draft picks, the aformentioned Rams and Saints have dedicated a ton of tought, care and both draft capital and FA capital to enable their offenses to sing. It's not the same situation in Seattle by leagues.

I'm not going to hold the past choices against Pete et al too much here. It's really a good opportunity to develop what we liked about our 2018 even more and maybe incorporate the one thing you mentioned and a tangential thing more: Deception and dynamic threats. I don't think the dynamic threats thing is that far out of reach given how Pete seemingly is in love with dynamic RBs that can burn it out of the backfield - just gotta get them doing their thing more often.

Yeah well we'll see how successful McVay is in a couple years when all of Fisher's 1st and 2nd rounders are gone or old and expensive,he has to pay Goff 30M and he can't just go out and spend 50M a year on free agents all over the roster.

 

[Own The West]

Keep in mind this was the first year with a new OC. We started the year inept and got better/more consistent as the year went on.

Next year I fully expect us to come into the season about where we were mid-season this year. That should net us a couple more wins and perhaps some home field in the playoffs. I don't see a lot to fix here. Just need some polish.

 

[BigMeach]

The latest salvo:

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2019/1/14/18 ... ete-carrol

In particular this



Despite whatever good our rushing game did in season for the whole of the team, it certainly did not deliver in terms of 3rd and manageable, nor did it convert above league average in 3rd and 1, the most manageable.

As more and more post mortem analysis piles up, the seeming reality that passing, and especially a dedicated, creative, and robust passing game delivers so much more value than even the best rushing game comes more into focus. It's not a coincidence that the 4 teams left all have some level of passing sophistication and talent to support that vision, far far far surpasses ours.

I know it isn't what Pete wants, what many of you want, but I think it boils down to the question of whether you think RW could be the key cog in a passing offense that makes it a point of emphasis to make it dangerous, efficient and risk adverse and then consistently use it in that way.

The fundamental error in my opinion from Pete and Schotty is refusing to acknowledge that the climate of the NFL has changed and passing simply is that much better if you devote sufficient cognitive and personnel resources to it. Maybe the investment in tailoring the team towards that is too difficult a task for PC and Schotty to manage.

This seems to be intractable as far as I'm concerned - I am not simply asking for the Hawks to pass more. Simply passing more with Schotty's route concepts and combos, RB utilization, OL talent is insufficient. I'm talking a full on revolution in how the team approaches passing as a concept. And thus intractable.

Grass isn't always greener. Careful what you wish for.

 

[mrt144]

The latest salvo:

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2019/1/14/18 ... ete-carrol

In particular this



Despite whatever good our rushing game did in season for the whole of the team, it certainly did not deliver in terms of 3rd and manageable, nor did it convert above league average in 3rd and 1, the most manageable.

As more and more post mortem analysis piles up, the seeming reality that passing, and especially a dedicated, creative, and robust passing game delivers so much more value than even the best rushing game comes more into focus. It's not a coincidence that the 4 teams left all have some level of passing sophistication and talent to support that vision, far far far surpasses ours.

I know it isn't what Pete wants, what many of you want, but I think it boils down to the question of whether you think RW could be the key cog in a passing offense that makes it a point of emphasis to make it dangerous, efficient and risk adverse and then consistently use it in that way.

The fundamental error in my opinion from Pete and Schotty is refusing to acknowledge that the climate of the NFL has changed and passing simply is that much better if you devote sufficient cognitive and personnel resources to it. Maybe the investment in tailoring the team towards that is too difficult a task for PC and Schotty to manage.

This seems to be intractable as far as I'm concerned - I am not simply asking for the Hawks to pass more. Simply passing more with Schotty's route concepts and combos, RB utilization, OL talent is insufficient. I'm talking a full on revolution in how the team approaches passing as a concept. And thus intractable.

Grass isn't always greener. Careful what you wish for.

I got a taste of it with 50% of Dissly's TDs

 

[Scorpion05]

In 2017, a year in which everyone and their mother knew we were throwing the ball because we couldn’t run to save our lives, we finished 9-7 (because of Blair Walsh) and Russ finished with 38 TDs (overall) and 11 INTs. There are still people who argue Russ can’t succeed without a good running game, which after 2017 is quite possibly the weakest, baseless claim a person can argue

I get it...passing more brings more risk, more possible turnovers. We don’t necessarily have the O-line for it. Running is much safer. But you can’t possibly make a convincing argument that we can’t have way more balance on offense. We’re one additional receiver and more O-line depth away from being a very explosive offense. And with Pete scheming a young defense, I have very little doubt we can dominate the league

 

[TwistedHusky]

Good luck.

With Pete, things are never as bad as you fear but never as good as you hope.

We haven't won a playoff game of note since that SB debacle.

Our only 2 wins were :

1 - 1 game that we should have lost but for a blown gimmee kick.

2 - a win in the wildcard against a Lions near that had not won in the playoffs in YEARS. They were essentially a loss before the game started.

But, back when Rick Mirer, Gelbaugh, Stouffer and the rest were starting - we went into the season just hoping to have a chance to beat some good teams during the year. Now, we are pretty much assured we can play with any team.

So the forecast is more that this will be a team that does a solid job in the regular season for as long as Pete is the coach. But don't expect it to matter for anything in the playoffs because there is no future under Pete where that will occur. And a future without Pete is most likely much worse.

 

[KiwiHawk]

*2018*

Game 1-2: "Wow, this is similar level of bad, soul arresting football."

How ironic - those two games were using the passing offense you want, yet you found them soul-arresting and bad.

 

[Year of The Hawk]

I remember new wave narratives from years ago.

I think publishers have fans in the palm of their hand. So much so, they can change a few words around and recycle many of the same narratives down thru the years.

- the forward pass
- pro style
- Air Coryell
- run and shoot
- west coast
- pistol
- spread
- read option
- up tempo
- RPO

People want "innovation," but fail to understand that anything new is just tweaks and variations of these old styles of offense. Both Shanahan and McVay are just running variations of the same offense they both ran in Washington, just tweaked with more motion, play action and deception.

Is that "innovation?" Sure, but it's far more about personnel and deception. So THAT'S really the conversation you guys wanna have if you don't like the way Pete and Schotty call games. You don't want them to be so predictable and stubborn when it comes to scheme and playcalling..........and I agree, and I think Schotty and Pete agree.

But again, this takes personnel. Unlike the Rams and Saints we don't have a great pass pro O-line, and weapons all over the field to spread out defenses that Russell can pick apart. We had ONE above average WR, one injured WR and no dynamic TE's...........and our most versatile pass catching RB (McKissic) was injured most of the year.

And as I've said a couple of times - some of these things related to personnel are choices each franchise has made. Even if you account for the risk of ruin from draft picks, the aformentioned Rams and Saints have dedicated a ton of tought, care and both draft capital and FA capital to enable their offenses to sing. It's not the same situation in Seattle by leagues.

I'm not going to hold the past choices against Pete et al too much here. It's really a good opportunity to develop what we liked about our 2018 even more and maybe incorporate the one thing you mentioned and a tangential thing more: Deception and dynamic threats. I don't think the dynamic threats thing is that far out of reach given how Pete seemingly is in love with dynamic RBs that can burn it out of the backfield - just gotta get them doing their thing more often.

Yeah well we'll see how successful McVay is in a couple years when all of Fisher's 1st and 2nd rounders are gone or old and expensive,he has to pay Goff 30M and he can't just go out and spend 50M a year on free agents all over the roster.

I feel the same way. Not to say McVay is not a good coach but it was the same with Harbaugh in San Fran. He came onto a stacked team with tons of high draft picks from the past several years. He tweaks things and off he goes. Same with McVay. When the dust settles in a year or two we will see if he can keep the engine running the same with the cap and drafting lower. Plus the league will catch up with his "innovation".
The thing about Pete ball is it is not a trendy style. You are either good at it or not. That style gives you an opportunity to win every game. We were in every game this year with a real chance of winning. The last two years we slipped on that. We had a few bigger losses. I feel we are trending up.
Something else to think about. Because everyone else in the league is all about passing, that style of offense will make those skill positions MUCH more expensive. Running back are waaaay cheaper and easier to come by. Another way to keep within the cap. Plus most teams design defenses against he pass so having a run game plays against many defenses weakness.

 

[DomeHawk]

Good luck.



We haven't won a playoff game of note since that SB debacle.

Our only 2 wins were :

1 - 1 game that we should have lost but for a blown gimmee kick.

2 - a win in the wildcard against a Lions near that had not won in the playoffs in YEARS. They were essentially a loss before the game started.

But, back when Rick Mirer, Gelbaugh, Stouffer and the rest were starting - we went into the season just hoping to have a chance to beat some good teams during the year. Now, we are pretty much assured we can play with any team.

So the forecast is more that this will be a team that does a solid job in the regular season for as long as Pete is the coach. But don't expect it to matter for anything in the playoffs because there is no future under Pete where that will occur. And a future without Pete is most likely much worse.

"With Pete, things are never as bad as you fear but never as good as you hope."

Pretty much sums up how I feel, good post.

 

[mrt144]

*2018*

Game 1-2: "Wow, this is similar level of bad, soul arresting football."

How ironic - those two games were using the passing offense you want, yet you found them soul-arresting and bad.

I'll tell you when the Hawks are using a pass offense I want. Simply passing doesn't qualify. You keep assigning some brain dead, huck it chuck it footbaw, paradigm to what I want and it's not apt.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I pointed that out.

We wanted a passing attack, not the second coming of Rex Grossman.

We wanted a short passing game, passes to RB to keep the LBs on the wrong side of the LOS, passes using the middle of the field, etc. We wanted an effective passing offense not all or nothing hurls for half the distance of the field.

What we got was last year's "Duck, Chuck, and Therefore, Suck" offense of long developing pass plays combined with poor protection. Even so, some of it worked until our rookie TE got injured. It was still dumb tactics though.

And, it resulted in losses when paired with a pretty average defense.