Timing on DC hire

[JayhawkMike]

When we hired Waldron last year it felt as if PC waited and waited and waited and passed on good candidates.

This year? Lots of staffs falling and rising. So the question is: find a good available candidate now before getting snapped up by a new coaching staff (there will be 9) or wait around again and maybe someone unavailable will be available later. The risk of course is we end up with a lesser candidate.

So now or later? Are we the hunters or the settlers.

(I’ll save my thoughts of PC likely hiring a young asst coord so he is beholden and bowing down to PC instead of old grizzled ornery and aggressive and willing to tell PC to eff off when he is wrong, which I would prefer. )

 

[jammerhawk]

Why wouldn't it be a good idea if the new DC cooperated with PC? Do you think he's so old-fashioned and closed minded not to accept new ideas?

If the goal is to improve the D then everyone working together to achieve that goal might be the best way for the team to go rather than having some old DC telling PC to pound sand. For me I'd like to see a younger guy who brings a fresh approach to the table for the whole D to work out.

 

[hawkfan68]

I hope they take their time and look for the right candidate to take over as DC. I'm not impressed (wasn't at the time of the hire and still not now) with Waldron as the OC so I hope that same thing doesn't happen on defensive side.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Why wouldn't it be a good idea if the new DC cooperated with PC? Do you think he's so old-fashioned and closed minded not to accept new ideas?

Yes

 

[ryank24]

Last year, Shane Waldron was one of the more interesting names on the market coming from the McVay coaching tree. I don't remember it feeling like we waited too long and missed out at all.

But even if that's what you felt about last year...The Seahawks officially announced the hire of Shane Waldron exactly 1 year ago today, with reports of it being a done deal a few days earlier. So if you consider that to be waiting too long, we've already passed that point in this year's offseason.

 

[jammerhawk]

Why wouldn't it be a good idea if the new DC cooperated with PC? Do you think he's so old-fashioned and closed minded not to accept new ideas?

Yes

Sadly if you’re right it won’t make a bit of difference if the new DC is young or old, b/c their opinions won’t matter to PC. I find that view unrealistic and sadly too negative. To me it seems inconsistent with the team’s long record of success as well. All in all I get the anti - Pete bias but think I it’s overstated.

However, you have long been a fire Pete guy and little I could say would any bit of difference to your firmly held views.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Why wouldn't it be a good idea if the new DC cooperated with PC? Do you think he's so old-fashioned and closed minded not to accept new ideas?

Yes

Sadly if you’re right it won’t make a bit of difference if the new DC is young or old, b/c their opinions won’t matter to PC. I find that view unrealistic and sadly too negative. To me it seems inconsistent with the team’s long record of success as well. All in all I get the anti' - Pete bias but think I it’s overstated.

However, you have long been a fire Pete guy and little I could say would any bit of difference to your firmly held views.

I've always said that the coordinators dont matter because they all fall in line under Pete anyways. None of them are really allowed to do their jobs the way they want to. Just my opinion.

 

[olyfan63]

I've always said that the coordinators dont matter because they all fall in line under Pete anyways. None of them are really allowed to do their jobs the way they want to. Just my opinion.

Exactly what I'd expect from an Anti-Pete-er. This needs to be censored as public fandom misinformation.

Seriously, you Anti-Pete-ers REFUSE to see his growth and evolution, on both sides of the ball. Firing KNJ is change and progress; we should be able to agree on that. Waldron hire was progress. I think Pete will go for a proven veteran guy for DC with a proven effective, conceptually compatible system. Pete is tired of having to micromanage to make up for the DC's slow in-game adjustments and defense's annual slow start.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I've always said that the coordinators dont matter because they all fall in line under Pete anyways. None of them are really allowed to do their jobs the way they want to. Just my opinion.

Exactly what I'd expect from an Anti-Pete-er. This needs to be censored as public fandom misinformation.

Seriously, you Anti-Pete-ers REFUSE to see his growth and evolution, on both sides of the ball. Firing KNJ is change and progress; we should be able to agree on that. Waldron hire was progress. I think Pete will go for a proven veteran guy for DC with a proven effective, conceptually compatible system. Pete is tired of having to micromanage to make up for the DC's slow in-game adjustments and defense's annual slow start.

Firing Norton isnt change and progress, its necessity because Jody leaned on Pete some and Norton was the most likely candidate to be the next fall guy. The defense stunk under Richard too. Take the OC's for example. Ever notice none of them ever left for another job and brighter pastures? All of them fired. Schotty was let go over philosophical differences. Thats just a way of saying that Schotty wasnt allowed to do what he wanted. Even with Waldron the offense went straight to Pete-Ball after the first game. It happens every single year at some point. The coordinators dont matter under Pete Carroll. Never have. Pete isnt tired of micromanaging anything, he thrives on it.

 

[zhawk]

Bring back Dan Quinn

 

[blkhwk]

I would assume they are being patient to see who lands where with the new vacancies. Bradley may be available as early as next week, Flores could pass on a bad situation to be a head coach and could land in our lap.

 

[olyfan63]

Firing Norton isnt change and progress, its necessity because Jody leaned on Pete some and Norton was the most likely candidate to be the next fall guy. The defense stunk under Richard too. Take the OC's for example. Ever notice none of them ever left for another job and brighter pastures? All of them fired. Schotty was let go over philosophical differences. Thats just a way of saying that Schotty wasnt allowed to do what he wanted. Even with Waldron the offense went straight to Pete-Ball after the first game. It happens every single year at some point. The coordinators dont matter under Pete Carroll. Never have. Pete isnt tired of micromanaging anything, he thrives on it.

Almost exactly what I'd expect you, an AntiPeter to say.

I'll grant that Pete seems like a slow and reluctant learner-changer. His pace of evolution and progress is positively glacial, with losing and failing to meet expectations as the only drivers of progress. To you it looks like no progress, ever. Then it happens, faster than you expect, but you refuse to see it, and disregard and discount it.

On OCs, Waldron IS growth and change from Pete. IMO the problem is Russell. Russell is simply not about a read-the-defense, timing-based, pre-snap-motion, throw-on-time passing system, and that is part of what Waldron is about. Russell largely balked at running this type of offense, drug his feet, and brought things back to standard Pete-Ball for most of the year. We'd repeatedly see Russell passing up multiple open receivers on 3rd down to play Hero Ball and throw a deep incompletion, or take a sack, then passively jog off the field as the punt team came on. Pete's done with this and he's chosen to stick with Waldron's system and go with a QB who will run it, even if it's not Russell Waldron even showed nice ability to game-plan around Russell's limitations the last few games, and to (successfully) anticipate what opposing defenses will try to do, and game plan for that. Truly refreshing.

On D, Pete has reluctantly started to go with non-"Seahawky" CBs. Finally ditched Tre Flowers. We've seen the improvement this year. Above all, Pete values winning and postseason success. That's why I think it likely we've seen Russell Wilson's last game as a Seahawk. Now it's up to the new DC to take the opening and run with it. I expect you to cynically deny any and all progress on Pete's part. You've never yet disappointed on these expectations.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Firing Norton isnt change and progress, its necessity because Jody leaned on Pete some and Norton was the most likely candidate to be the next fall guy. The defense stunk under Richard too. Take the OC's for example. Ever notice none of them ever left for another job and brighter pastures? All of them fired. Schotty was let go over philosophical differences. Thats just a way of saying that Schotty wasnt allowed to do what he wanted. Even with Waldron the offense went straight to Pete-Ball after the first game. It happens every single year at some point. The coordinators dont matter under Pete Carroll. Never have. Pete isnt tired of micromanaging anything, he thrives on it.

Almost exactly what I'd expect you, an AntiPeter to say.

I'll grant that Pete seems like a slow and reluctant learner-changer. His pace of evolution and progress is positively glacial, with losing and failing to meet expectations as the only drivers of progress. To you it looks like no progress, ever. Then it happens, faster than you expect, but you refuse to see it, and disregard and discount it.

On OCs, Waldron IS growth and change from Pete. IMO the problem is Russell. Russell is simply not about a read-the-defense, timing-based, pre-snap-motion, throw-on-time passing system, and that is part of what Waldron is about. Russell largely balked at running this type of offense, drug his feet, and brought things back to standard Pete-Ball for most of the year. We'd repeatedly see Russell passing up multiple open receivers on 3rd down to play Hero Ball and throw a deep incompletion, or take a sack, then passively jog off the field as the punt team came on. Pete's done with this and he's chosen to stick with Waldron's system and go with a QB who will run it, even if it's not Russell Waldron even showed nice ability to game-plan around Russell's limitations the last few games, and to (successfully) anticipate what opposing defenses will try to do, and game plan for that. Truly refreshing.

On D, Pete has reluctantly started to go with non-"Seahawky" CBs. Finally ditched Tre Flowers. We've seen the improvement this year. Above all, Pete values winning and postseason success. That's why I think it likely we've seen Russell Wilson's last game as a Seahawk. Now it's up to the new DC to take the opening and run with it. I expect you to cynically deny any and all progress on Pete's part. You've never yet disappointed on these expectations.

Of course, the blame falls on Wilson. The player thats carried the team and Carroll for years now. Hell, even Carroll admitted that. Wilson looked just fine the first game with the pre snap motion and tempo and then Pete neuters the offense as usual and all of a sudden its Russ's fault although it happens every single year with Carroll no matter who the OC is. Pete didnt chose to stick with Waldrons system, he damn near axed it for the entire season. Luckily Pete was desperate and let Waldron implement his system the last few games of the season again (that and Penny started to run for his next contract). Yes, truly refreshing.

Of course the defense improved throughout the season. How could it not? It went from horrid to mediocre. The defense has been bad now for years. Bad drafting and giving a kings ransom for a player the defense didnt even need will do that. Regardless of who the new DC is, expect the defense to take yet another half of a season before they can get out of their own way again.

Pete's progress? The team just had its worst season in over a decade and its a total mess. Now it faces a lack of draft picks and it will be in cap space hell in a year or two unless drastic changes are made. Great job Pete. Your killing it.

 

[olyfan63]

Of course, the blame falls on Wilson. The player thats carried the team and Carroll for years now. Hell, even Carroll admitted that. Wilson looked just fine the first game with the pre snap motion and tempo and then Pete neuters the offense as usual and all of a sudden its Russ's fault although it happens every single year with Carroll no matter who the OC is. Pete didnt chose to stick with Waldrons system, he damn near axed it for the entire season. Luckily Pete was desperate and let Waldron implement his system the last few games of the season again (that and Penny started to run for his next contract). Yes, truly refreshing.

Of course the defense improved throughout the season. How could it not? It went from horrid to mediocre. The defense has been bad now for years. Bad drafting and giving a kings ransom for a player the defense didnt even need will do that. Regardless of who the new DC is, expect the defense to take yet another half of a season before they can get out of their own way again.

Pete's progress? The team just had its worst season in over a decade and its a total mess. Now it faces a lack of draft picks and it will be in cap space hell in a year or two unless drastic changes are made. Great job Pete. Your killing it.

Honestly, thank you for this response
It shows that how one processes and interprets events totally depends on your point of view.
You view Russell as the primary cause of Seahawks successes and Pete Carroll as more of an impediment than an asset.
I view Pete Carroll as the primary driver of Seahawks success during his tenure here, and Russell Wilson as a primary beneficiary of, and also key participant in, Pete's system, approach, culture, and coaching.

The Waldron offense, the Indy game, and the disappearance of what was shown in Indy. Honestly, many elements of your take sound about right to me, you just go a little further and with a little more negativity toward Pete than how I see it. I actually love this part of your take, find it refreshing blunt, and entertaining (in a good way), "Luckily Pete was desperate and let Waldron implement his system the last few games of the season again (that and Penny started to run for his next contract). Yes, truly refreshing." As a coach, the reality of getting your butt handed to you repeatedly drives real change like nothing else.

I do agree that the losing forced Pete to change and actually turn the reins over to Waldron. Penny running for his next contract--true. I also see the emergence of young OL talent like Jake Curhan and Phil Haynes, along with Adrian Petersen's influence on Penny as factors. Damn, but wasn't it fun to watch that run game with Penny going for buck-fifty plus all those games? Not seen since Peak Beastmode!

We'll probably continue to disagree about Russell. IMO the league has largely figured him out, though only a few teams have the horses on D to use that knowledge to really shut him down, Rams and Cardinals being prime examples. Penny and the running game and Waldron's game planning have temporarily removed the Cards from that list. (Kyler Murray now suffers from the same issue of being figured out, similar to Russell.) Russell is a top-notch game manager with a great deep ball who can't carry a team with just his passing against strong opponents; he needs a strong running game (like the last few games of the season with Penny) and an elite defense.

On Pete and DCs, check out the thread in the NFL forum on Tre Flowers and how the Bengals are using him.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=178354&p=2606601#p2606601
To me it shows a lack of creativity and execution on the part of KNJ, when compared to the Bengals DC and D staff. Maybe it's still Pete's fault? Could be, but I'm going to lay this one at the feet of KNJ, not being creative, resourceful, and energetic enough to come up with the kinds of targeted packages the Bengals clearly have. Is it because Pete didn't give KNJ enough latitude? Could be. I'm going with the "it's KNJ's fault" explanation here, as he was the titular DC. We may not find out the truth until the new DC is in place and we see how things are going. I have to believe that Dan Quinn had full latitude as a DC in his 2013 & 2014 seasons.

The Jamal Adams trade... yeah, not working out so well, at this point. Bad drafts, bad FA signings... the only saving grace is that a lot of other NFL teams screw it up even worse than Seattle. IMO Hawks are actually middle of the road on this stuff, overall. Definite room for improvement.

Do give Pete Carroll credit for the good and great parts of his coaching and team approach. You might have to look extra hard given your point of view. The team has been to two SBs, winning one. It's just been so long...

 

[pittpnthrs]

Honestly, thank you for this response
It shows that how one processes and interprets events totally depends on your point of view.
You view Russell as the primary cause of Seahawks successes and Pete Carroll as more of an impediment than an asset.
I view Pete Carroll as the primary driver of Seahawks success during his tenure here, and Russell Wilson as a primary beneficiary of, and also key participant in, Pete's system, approach, culture, and coaching.

I look at Carrolls sub .500 record without Wilson and truly understand it now. I'm a Seahawks fan and dont want to see Wilson go, but in the same vein, I kind of do want him to move on so fans will actually realize how wrong they have been when Carroll and the team struggles to win 5 or 6 games a season with that game manager QB everybody is drastically wishing for.

The Waldron offense, the Indy game, and the disappearance of what was shown in Indy. Honestly, many elements of your take sound about right to me, you just go a little further and with a little more negativity toward Pete than how I see it. I actually love this part of your take, find it refreshing blunt, and entertaining (in a good way), "Luckily Pete was desperate and let Waldron implement his system the last few games of the season again (that and Penny started to run for his next contract). Yes, truly refreshing." As a coach, the reality of getting your butt handed to you repeatedly drives real change like nothing else.

Imagine an entire season of it. If only the pig headed coach would get out of the coordinators way and let them do what they were hired to do.

I do agree that the losing forced Pete to change and actually turn the reins over to Waldron. Penny running for his next contract--true. I also see the emergence of young OL talent like Jake Curhan and Phil Haynes, along with Adrian Petersen's influence on Penny as factors. Damn, but wasn't it fun to watch that run game with Penny going for buck-fifty plus all those games? Not seen since Peak Beastmode!

Not going to disagree with you about the Oline. Grab a better center and they might have something there. It was fun watching Penny run during that period, but what do they do with him now? I've said it more than once that I dont envy the FO in the off season with their task of making a decision on him. I dont want to see them grossly over pay for him, but other than that, I wont hold a grudge against whatever decision they make because I dont know what I would do either.

We'll probably continue to disagree about Russell. IMO the league has largely figured him out, though only a few teams have the horses on D to use that knowledge to really shut him down, Rams and Cardinals being prime examples. Penny and the running game and Waldron's game planning have temporarily removed the Cards from that list. (Kyler Murray now suffers from the same issue of being figured out, similar to Russell.) Russell is a top-notch game manager with a great deep ball who can't carry a team with just his passing against strong opponents; he needs a strong running game (like the last few games of the season with Penny) and an elite defense.

I think the league has figured Carroll and the team out more so than just Wilson. Its no secret that Carroll led teams are predictable and easy to figure out. Pete is one of those coaches that leans on the mindset that he doesnt care if the opposing team knows whats going to happen because they still have to stop it. Well that works when your team has better talent than the opposing team. The problem is Seattle hasent had that superior talent for years now and I believe Wilson has been good enough to overcome that for a lot of regular seasons, but cant overcome it in the post season when every team you face is good.

Side note - League hasent figured Murray out either. Cardinals were the best team in the league until later on when Hopkins went down and Edmonds and Conner struggled with injuries. It was the classic QB trying to do too much because he had no other choice. Sound familiar?

On Pete and DCs, check out the thread in the NFL forum on Tre Flowers and how the Bengals are using him.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=178354&p=2606601#p2606601
To me it shows a lack of creativity and execution on the part of KNJ, when compared to the Bengals DC and D staff. Maybe it's still Pete's fault? Could be, but I'm going to lay this one at the feet of KNJ, not being creative, resourceful, and energetic enough to come up with the kinds of targeted packages the Bengals clearly have. Is it because Pete didn't give KNJ enough latitude? Could be. I'm going with the "it's KNJ's fault" explanation here, as he was the titular DC. We may not find out the truth until the new DC is in place and we see how things are going. I have to believe that Dan Quinn had full latitude as a DC in his 2013 & 2014 seasons.

Tre Flowers is a bad football player that has been relegated to playing Special Teams and following TE's around in certain packages. So what? He was bad in Seattle and he's bad in Cincinnati. If your arguing that the Bengals are getting more production out of him than Seattle did, thats fair. Seattles defense has way bigger issues than Tre Flowers. I'm more concerned that a player like Carlos Dunlap had to approach the staff and tell them he was being used wrong. I was blaming his lack of production on being injured when here it was due to coaching ineptitude. A lot of that goes on in Seattle.

Dann Quinn had one of the most talented defensive teams in the history of the NFL. Even Norton would look good with that roster.

The Jamal Adams trade... yeah, not working out so well, at this point. Bad drafts, bad FA signings... the only saving grace is that a lot of other NFL teams screw it up even worse than Seattle. IMO Hawks are actually middle of the road on this stuff, overall. Definite room for improvement.

Its been bad for awhile now.

Do give Pete Carroll credit for the good and great parts of his coaching and team approach. You might have to look extra hard given your point of view. The team has been to two SBs, winning one. It's just been so long...

I give Pete all the credit in the world for building a fantastic roster with his familiarity of the college players, a risk with Lynch that worked out, his willingness to give Wilson a look and a chance, being a great motivator, and winning the organization its first Super Bowl. On the other hand, he crapped away the team and talent he amassed faster than he built it, he struggles with game day planning, X's and O's, adapting and changing, drafting and free agent choices, and being loyal to a fault. Honestly, Pete is the worst coach in the NFC West and thats not a good thing. The rest of the division has moved on while Seattle is stuck in the ditch. Its past time for a younger more innovative coach.

 

[chris98251]

Pete has not changed until forced, he has a palm print not just fingerprints on everything, offense clearly changed after Indy till last couple games. Not just due to Penny. Pressure was on Pete.

Norton a scape goat, Pete has been going to the Buy one Get one Free shelf for defense for the last few years and then was forced to the Discontinued items shelf for Reid and Sidney, and DT's, Brown we will see how he recovers but history has shown two years or close. Year or so to get back on field but full go and impact two.

Then forcing players in round holes that are square pegs, not adjusting to their strengths like he did in the beginning, we have become a system rather than a unique defense.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Ok if we can get Brian Flores, that would be amazing.

I thought he would get a HC job but screw it, get him.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Absolutely. Get it done. At the minimum, get him in here for an interview. And ACTUAL interview.
He's a hell of a DC.

 

[TwistedHusky]

It would give us hope.

Because when Pete steps down, where is the HC coming from?

If we have Brian on the sidelines, I would be just fine with him becoming the HC.

If we could get Brian it would lift most of the dark clouds on our future. And give Brian the best path to being a HC in an area that supports its team well.

Brian is good enough to be a HC. He would get it in 2-3 years, maybe 1.

I would go from a pessimist about our future in the next 3-5 years to an optimist.

A lot of us would.

And it wouldn't fix the problem but it would chip away at it.

Because most coaches at some point were former players. And frankly, most former players are black. Yet weirdly, the bulk of former players that get a pipeline to HC jobs are white...a tiny % of the overall group of former players. Why?

It never made sense that in a league where the players are 70%-80% black, and we might see 60-70% of former players from college programs they come from are black, the coaches are all white. That shouldn't be a political take, it is math.

Flores is a hell of a DC, and seems to be a damned effective HC even without an effective QB (likely necessary for us later). And he gives us some sort of succession plan that we don't have now. Maybe even a chance at improving the defense (if Pete allows it)

 

[JayhawkMike]

Absolutely. Get it done. At the minimum, get him in here for an interview. And ACTUAL interview.
He's a hell of a DC.

You mean the guy that went from LB coach to HC and has never been a DC?