Wagner in MM’s D

[hawks85]

Wags is an excellent player and will always be a legend to us Hawk fans. With that being said, Wags isn't a good fit with Coach Mike's defense. LB's have to cover, it's as simple as that. There will be a lot of players on the defense that move on. Everyone wanted change including me, right. In order for us to flourish in Macdonald's defense we need the right players. I think the D-line will be gone, I think both Brooks and Wags are gone. They will be replaced the some of the Ravens defensive FA to help install the defense. I see Queen signing here, I see Madubuike possibly, if he isn't franchised. I see Clowney returning, I see Stone coming here. Once we free up cap space I see at least 2 of these signing here.

 

[Chukarhawk]

I'd bet some money Wags is gone. they are going to slash this thing pretty hard.

 

[DarkVictory23]

I just don’t understand those who think getting rid of Bobby makes the defense better. We have enough areas to fix without a lot of cap to get it done. You only get so many draft picks and only a few of those are going to be able to make a difference right away. Bobby played for $5.5 million last season and was one of only a few players who could actually make a tackle consistently. Is he the best at pass defense? No he’s not but there are ways to scheme around that. Bobby’s time is short but we need to keep him around to bridge the gap while we build up the weaker areas starting with getting offensive guards who can run block better.

Getting rid of Bobby alone doesn't make the defense better but it does remove a specific liability. Bobby in general brings the play of our guys up. But on third and medium/long he brings it down significantly. It isn't just that he's a vulnerability it's that he also creates larger spots for the rest of the secondary to be responsible for. That makes them worse.

Can Bobby be used intelligently and in the end, be a net contributor to this defense if Macdonald wants to do that? Absolutely. But there has to be a desire to do that and we don't know to what degree that would sacrifice other things Mike might want to do with this defense.

Like, I said: I hope he stays and is used in a form and fashion suitable to his skills (and he is willing to accept that role and commensurate pay in line with that probably much more limited role) so that Bobby can go out a Seahawk. But I also know that's not necessarily realistic.

 

[Grahamhawker]

^Well said, DV23^

 

[GemCity]

I just don’t understand those who think getting rid of Bobby makes the defense better. We have enough areas to fix without a lot of cap to get it done. You only get so many draft picks and only a few of those are going to be able to make a difference right away. Bobby played for $5.5 million last season and was one of only a few players who could actually make a tackle consistently. Is he the best at pass defense? No he’s not but there are ways to scheme around that. Bobby’s time is short but we need to keep him around to bridge the gap while we build up the weaker areas starting with getting offensive guards who can run block better.

Scheming him correctly, yard and down specific, could work.

Love me some B-Wagz…I think MM might have a few tricks up his sleeve to optimize BWs strengths a bit better than we’ve previously seen.

 

[renofox]

Designing an effective scheme around Bobby's ineffectiveness in man coverage defeats the very principles that make MM's defense effective - using "multiple" players to disguise what the defense is actually doing. I can't count how many times I've heard analysts talking about MM and his reliance on ILBs and safeties ability to be multiple.

I've spent about 10 hours watching all-22 of MM's defense and the regularity with which ILBs carry RBs and TEs completely through (and oftentimes beyond) their zone before switching coverage to another receiver is unprecedented.

They also need enough speed to drop quickly into their 4-under zones after a strong rush fake.

Straight-line speed, lateral speed, and change of direction agility are both primary and necessary skills of his ILBs for his scheme to work.

Bobby is a horrible fit for MM, unless he's going to radically change what he has been doing.

 

[kidhawk]

I’m hearing this talk about how he runs his defense, but to do that he has to have players more like he currently has. There is just no way to totally revamp a defense to fit what would match what he has now in one off season. This is why getting rid of Bobby now may not be the wisest choice.

I believe in his ability to bring in some key additions and improve the defense in year one but it’s going to take 2-3 years to get it perfect (assuming he will)

 

[hawks85]

I'd bet some money Wags is gone. they are going to slash this thing pretty hard.

A lot of the defensive guys will be gone. Simply put, they are not a good fit for Macdonald's defense.

 

[hawks85]

Designing an effective scheme around Bobby's ineffectiveness in man coverage defeats the very principles that make MM's defense effective - using "multiple" players to disguise what the defense is actually doing. I can't count how many times I've heard analysts talking about MM and his reliance on ILBs and safeties ability to be multiple.

I've spent about 10 hours watching all-22 of MM's defense and the regularity with which ILBs carry RBs and TEs completely through (and oftentimes beyond) their zone before switching coverage to another receiver is unprecedented.

They also need enough speed to drop quickly into their 4-under zones after a strong rush fake.

Straight-line speed, lateral speed, and change of direction agility are both primary and necessary skills of his ILBs for his scheme to work.

Bobby is a horrible fit for MM, unless he's going to radically change what he has been doing.

We all love Wags. What he's done here is legend status. He just isn't a good fit for this new defense, and people have to accept this.

 

[AgentDib]

I just don’t understand those who think getting rid of Bobby makes the defense better. We have enough areas to fix without a lot of cap to get it done.

For me it's more that the front office should not be overly fixated on next year's record. We have a few valuable contracts (3-4?) but not nearly enough to justify Schneider's claim that the team underperformed last year. The bulk of our roster is made up of players who are either easily replaceable or overpaid and the team really needs more of a proper rebuild. I'm in favor of pre-June 1st cuts, acquiring youth and then playing that youth so they can actually develop.

If we both see the defensive rebuild as a multi-year process and think Wags is unlikely to be our mike long-term, then why not try to draft and play some young guys and see if we can find our next pro bowl LBs?

 

[CallMeADawg]

I opened this expecting a discussion about Bobby Wagner and M&M's.

 

[chris98251]

He may be here, the D line and LB's is the key, Macs defense may take a couple seasons to assemble in mass, until then we will get a hybrid mix of what he can do with players here and brought in to assemble what he wants. Finding the right guys to run a 3 - 4 might take a few seasons in total, fast, physical, smart, coverage, and run stopping LB's, in one package don't fall out of trees, you get bits and pieces with many.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I just don’t understand those who think getting rid of Bobby makes the defense better. We have enough areas to fix without a lot of cap to get it done. You only get so many draft picks and only a few of those are going to be able to make a difference right away. Bobby played for $5.5 million last season and was one of only a few players who could actually make a tackle consistently. Is he the best at pass defense? No he’s not but there are ways to scheme around that. Bobby’s time is short but we need to keep him around to bridge the gap while we build up the weaker areas starting with getting offensive guards who can run block better.

The LB group is one of the biggest holes on the team to fill though. A younger, faster and decent field general easily makes the defense better.

 

[Parallax]

My guess is he won't be re-signed. As others have stated, he's lost a step (or three) and lacks the quickness necessary in today's NFL, not to mention in Macdonald's preferred schemes. Perhaps he could safely play in obvious short yardage situations but one would be taking a chance because he leaves his part of the field so vulnerable for short crossing passes. I guess if the opponent has a QB that doesn't throw well and you want to dare them.

He is a great clubhouse leader (and field general to the extent he can still be trusted on the field) so maybe if he was motivated enough to come back on a veteran minimum contract, they'd find a spot. But I doubt it. Age takes its toll on everyone and, hard as it is to let go, change is inevitable. A good coach needs to be clear eyed and he has no history with Bobby anyway. I could see Carroll making space for him but my guess is Macdonald views a roster spot as too valuable to fill with someone who can't contribute much on the field anymore. I don't imagine there are ways to scheme around him adequately in most situations.

 

[QWERTY]

I've said multiple times Wagner is overrated.

From back in 2020.

 

[kidhawk]

For me it's more that the front office should not be overly fixated on next year's record. We have a few valuable contracts (3-4?) but not nearly enough to justify Schneider's claim that the team underperformed last year. The bulk of our roster is made up of players who are either easily replaceable or overpaid and the team really needs more of a proper rebuild. I'm in favor of pre-June 1st cuts, acquiring youth and then playing that youth so they can actually develop.

If we both see the defensive rebuild as a multi-year process and think Wags is unlikely to be our mike long-term, then why not try to draft and play some young guys and see if we can find our next pro bowl LBs?

If you want to say that we are walking away from the 2024 season and don’t want to plan to try to make a playoff run then Bobby would be no more than a placeholder. Even so his current salary wasn’t that high and the return on what he can give on the field and in practice is something that you can’t easily replace, so keeping him on a one year deal doesn’t hurt the future. If you want to win now you really have too many holes to fill to add another ILB spot to the mix. I just don’t see the down side to keeping him one more year.

 

[Scout]

Drafting several inside line backers is long overdue. Brooks and Wagz might be brought back but at what cost?

 

[Parallax]

Drafting several inside line backers is long overdue. Brooks and Wagz might be brought back but at what cost?

Exactly. What cost? Simple cost to benefit analysis. Brooks has been good but not great, though he might really benefit from Mcdonald's coaching. Wagner was once great but he's lost any sort of lateral quickness so I question whether the coaches can scheme things in a way that makes him effective again. I'm guessing not but would of course defer to them were he willing to sign a reasonable contract.

 

[Smellyman]

MM won't just drop his LBers in a soft zone where it is easy for OCs to pick on them over and over and over again. That would make any linebacker look bad

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Drafting several inside line backers is long overdue. Brooks and Wagz might be brought back but at what cost?

No doubt. In the 3rd round, our picks are only a couple spots apart. Hopefully they swoop at least 1 right there.