Wagner

[Hasselbeck]

Goddammit! I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into another Wilson thread.

You underestimate Anthony's abilities

 

[OkieHawk]

Goddammit! I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into another Wilson thread.

You underestimate Anthony's abilities

Clearly.

 

[Anthony!]

Goddammit! I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into another Wilson thread.

You underestimate Anthony's abilities

If you read the thread instead of just trying to point fingers you would have noticed I did not bring Wilson up first in this thread

 

[hawknation2015]

Goddammit! I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into another Wilson thread.

You underestimate Anthony's abilities

If you read the thread instead of just trying to point fingers you would have noticed I did not bring Wilson up first in this thread

All your posts are about Wilson and why the team is at fault for anything and everything. :34853_doh:

 

[Anthony!]

ukeface:

Goddammit! I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into another Wilson thread.

You underestimate Anthony's abilities

Clearly.

 

[scutterhawk]

Anyone notice how our good defensive guys want big money and the team doesn't even blink, but if you're on offense, you're more than likely to get kicked in the gonads at least once during negotiations ?

I honestly don't think Wilson is worth more than Rodgers, but he's also worth more than 18 mil/year as based on the rest of the league's salary structure.

He's absolutely worth every bit as much as Rodgers though.
He's matched, or bettered Rodgers record...Two CONSECUTIVE Super Bowl Appearances in a row, with one win on his record, and one near win in his second appearance.
Winning on head to head matchups with the Packers, has to be a part of the equation when dialing up the value of Russell Wilson.
So How does Andrew Luck get a top dog award OVER Russell Wilson, without even smelling a Super Bowl appearance?
RW has been getting it done with far less spectacular receivers.

 

[hawknation2015]

Anyone notice how our good defensive guys want big money and the team doesn't even blink, but if you're on offense, you're more than likely to get kicked in the gonads at least once during negotiations ?

I honestly don't think Wilson is worth more than Rodgers, but he's also worth more than 18 mil/year as based on the rest of the league's salary structure.

He's absolutely worth every bit as much as Rodgers though.
He's matched, or bettered Rodgers record...Two CONSECUTIVE Super Bowl Appearances in a row, with one win on his record, and one near win in his second appearance.
Winning on head to head matchups with the Packers, has to be a part of the equation when dialing up the value of Russell Wilson.
So How does Andrew Luck get a top dog award OVER Russell Wilson, without even smelling a Super Bowl appearance?
RW has been getting it done with far less spectacular receivers.

This is all true. I think eventually Wilson will get an offer that makes him the highest paid player in the game. But before that happens, he and/or his agent need to come back down to reality. He's not going to get a $22 million a year offer that includes the 2015 season; such a deal would be the equivalent of a $27 million a year extension and would cripple the team. He's also not going to get guarantees that exceed the 40-60% norm in the NFL. As long as those are the sort of things they are demanding, the gulf between fantasy and reality will be too far to bridge.

 

[Anthony!]

Goddammit! I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into another Wilson thread.

You underestimate Anthony's abilities

If you read the thread instead of just trying to point fingers you would have noticed I did not bring Wilson up first in this thread

All your posts are about Wilson and why the team is at fault for anything and everything. :34853_doh:

again you might want to try reading as usual you are wrong.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=111061

thanks for playing

 

[Anthony!]

Anyone notice how our good defensive guys want big money and the team doesn't even blink, but if you're on offense, you're more than likely to get kicked in the gonads at least once during negotiations ?

I honestly don't think Wilson is worth more than Rodgers, but he's also worth more than 18 mil/year as based on the rest of the league's salary structure.

He's absolutely worth every bit as much as Rodgers though.
He's matched, or bettered Rodgers record...Two CONSECUTIVE Super Bowl Appearances in a row, with one win on his record, and one near win in his second appearance.
Winning on head to head matchups with the Packers, has to be a part of the equation when dialing up the value of Russell Wilson.
So How does Andrew Luck get a top dog award OVER Russell Wilson, without even smelling a Super Bowl appearance?
RW has been getting it done with far less spectacular receivers.

This is all true. I think eventually Wilson will get an offer that makes him the highest paid player in the game. But before that happens, he and/or his agent need to come back down to reality. He's not going to get a $22 million a year offer that includes the 2015 season; such a deal would be the equivalent of a $27 million a year extension and would cripple the team. He's also not going to get guarantees that exceed the 40-60% norm in the NFL. As long as those are the sort of things they are demanding, the gulf between fantasy and reality will be too far to bridge.

I would agree now all you need to do is show proof that is what they are asking. Again for all you guys know the only hold up is a 5th year.

 

[OkieHawk]

Again, this post is about Wagner, not Wilson. If you can't refrain from talking about Wilson then stop posting in this thread and create your own. Thank you.

 

[Popeyejones]

Anyone notice how our good defensive guys want big money and the team doesn't even blink,

Bruce Irvin, Michael Bennett, Byron Maxwell and Brandown Browner all say hello.

but if you're on offense, you're more than likely to get kicked in the gonads at least once during negotiations ?

Marshawn Lynch (and Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham for that matter) all say hello too.

 

[onanygivensunday]

Anyone notice how our good defensive guys want big money and the team doesn't even blink,

Bruce Irvin, Michael Bennett, Byron Maxwell and Brandown Browner all say hello.

but if you're on offense, you're more than likely to get kicked in the gonads at least once during negotiations ?

Marshawn Lynch (and Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham for that matter) all say hello too.

Strange choice of examples... none of which are valid points given your premises.

Irvin isn't worth his 5th year option price.

Bennett is getting paid what he negotiated a year ago.

Seattle had no cap room to pay Maxwell with Wilson, Wagner and Sweezy coming up.

Lynch effectively got money moved into guaranteed money and he's happy (for now).

Harvin was paid handsomely but couldn't play well with others.

And Graham???.... don't understand why you should mention him... Seattle picked up his contract from the Saints in the trade and he's making no demands that we have heard of.

 

[jdemps]

Moving back towards on topic...

Did Wagner miss any time his rookie year?

No. But he does have a history of ankle/foot/turf toe injuries over the last couple years.

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/bobby-wagn ... r-injuries

A couple years ago, I think it was MikeRob who called BWagz a baby Patrick Willis. In the last 5 years, Willis has played exactly 1 full season (2012) and was still paid as the best ILB in football. With Willis retired, I think Wagner is top 3 with the other 2 being NaVorro Bowman (if/when healthy) and Luke Keggley (I know I'm spelling it wrong 8) ) with the order being debatable.

Over the cap lists the top 5 ILB contracts by avg/year to be:
1. Lawrence Timmons $9.559m
2. NaVorro Bowman $9.050m
3. Brian Cushing $8.75m
4. James Laurinaitis $8.3m
5. Daryl Washington $8m

Both Timmons and Bowman are getting towards the tail end of their deals so, adjusting for the rise in cap. I'd say Timmons contract is probably the floor for Wagz new deal. I'm guessing 4 year extension at $10m/year with a signing bonus around $10m. Whatever Wagz gets, Keggley the elf will get $1m more per year.

 

[OkieHawk]

To be honest, and it may be somewhat due to slight homer glasses, but I think Wagner is better than Kuechly. Their stats are pretty similar but I'd still give the edge to B-Wag.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7533/bobby-wagner


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7451/luke-kuechly

 

[jdemps]

To be honest, and it may be somewhat due to slight homer glasses, but I think Wagner is better than Kuechly. Their stats are pretty similar but I'd still give the edge to B-Wag.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7533/bobby-wagner


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7451/luke-kuechly

I think Keggles has had a lot of attention being one of the few shining stars of the Panthers the past few years. Winning DROY (Wagz should've won) helped him get recognized earlier and make him a household name faster than Wagner.

Honestly, they're 1a and 1b for me. I'm just glad one of them is on my team.

 

[McGruff]

Keuchly is the king of the downfield tackle. I'm sure someone somewhere keeps track of those things, but I'd wager that Wagner makes way more plays at the LOS.

 

[ctrcat]

To be honest, and it may be somewhat due to slight homer glasses, but I think Wagner is better than Kuechly. Their stats are pretty similar but I'd still give the edge to B-Wag.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7533/bobby-wagner


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7451/luke-kuechly

I think Keggles has had a lot of attention being one of the few shining stars of the Panthers the past few years. Winning DROY (Wagz should've won) helped him get recognized earlier and make him a household name faster than Wagner.

Honestly, they're 1a and 1b for me. I'm just glad one of them is on my team.

If Kuechly is overrated or over recognized , then IMHO Thomas Davis and maybe 4 or 5 other Panther defenders on rookie deals are underrated. With a good front 4 in front of him and Davis and now Shaq Thompson beside, it doesn't hurt. He still checks off most every other box including age (YOUNG, even for a 3 year vet).

IMHO I think it's fair to call Kuechly the Luck of LBs. Like Luck, he's great, no major flaws, but sometimes gets the nod "just because". Definitely frustrating when comparing a guy you truly believe is as good or better as Hawk fans do with Wilson/Wagner and Panther fans feel with Cam.

 

[jlwaters1]

To be honest, and it may be somewhat due to slight homer glasses, but I think Wagner is better than Kuechly. Their stats are pretty similar but I'd still give the edge to B-Wag.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7533/bobby-wagner


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7451/luke-kuechly

I think Keggles has had a lot of attention being one of the few shining stars of the Panthers the past few years. Winning DROY (Wagz should've won) helped him get recognized earlier and make him a household name faster than Wagner.

Honestly, they're 1a and 1b for me. I'm just glad one of them is on my team.

That and LK was a top 15 pick, whereas Wags was a 2nd rounder. It's a bias we've seen with Sherman and PP, up until the end of last year most of the pundits wouldn't admit they were wrong. For most of their 1st 3 seasons people have given LK the benefit of the doubt because of draft status.. (don't get me wrong he's a great player, though I'm not sure he deserved DPOY or RDPOY.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

I don't see this as an issue at all.

Simply put, you want to allocate your big cap dollars to difference makers. Role players, you can replace them.

Wagner, like many defensive players we have, is a difference maker. I don't have an issue paying out that kind of sum, while replacing other positions/players who while good, aren't special.

Maxwell, Carpenter even Unger. Those aren't players you can't find adequate replacements. Irvin is a good player too. Developing rapidly. But he's not a key cog to the defense. Getting interior OL, and decent quality OLBs is not something you can't get in the 2nd to 5th round range.

MLB is also one of those positions. But Wagner is unique in his quality. He's a guy who you retain because of that.

As a team, you want to be in a position where you can retain special players and are forced to let good players walk as a result. That's a good thing. Seattle does need to continue to backfill those good players, with new, cheaper good successors. They are doing that.

I don't see these decisions as some kind of failure. That's the model. It's been fairly easy to speculate on these moves, even the last couple of years. Pay difference makers and trust that you'll be able to fill in the blanks with guys you develop on the cheap. It's really kind of a hybrid dynasty college program. You have to keep reloading but have the option to keep a small handful of players. That handful needs to be guys who are special. And Seattle is identifying those players pretty successfully.

 

[AVL]

Hold on now. They gave Browner a nice chuck of money at the end of 2012, made up for his 4 game suspension for ped.

I deleted the rest of my comment because it crossed into forbidden territory.