Why Russell is a winner/leader and Cam Newton is not

[nsport]

LOL on the Cam debacle tonight. He is really not anything other than an underachieving potential super star. He is suffering from RGIIIism - early success and no growth whatsoever. His numbers are on the decline.

If he could only get that head bolted on the right way and harness those talents. The head case that he portrays is well documented in this thread and from any casual observer. I fear that RunTheBall is right - a long term deal would sink the Panthers. But what choice do they have? He has so much damn potential and they'd hate to see him go to another NFC South team and face him twice per year (Tampa a likely landing spot if he doesn't get the deal he wants?)

Oh - and GooGoo - change your avatar - no longer sharing the NFC South lead. You're 3-5-1 now.

 

[RunTheBall]

"Young" QBs I would take over Newton.
-Wilson, Luck, RG3, Tannehill, Foles, Carr, Glennon, Kap.

Newton never was that amazing, he was just severely overhyped as the #1 overall pick. He struggles with accuracy and is clumsy with the football.

 

[olyfan63]

EDIT: Now the other 2 pics show up. Getty Images server caching, or whatever.

The first pic, Cam with helmet on, reveals nothing. No facial expression visible. For all we know, Cam is looking at pictures of opponent defensive formations, on a tablet or photo that is on the ground between his feet.

The third pic. Basically I would say the same about this pic as I said for the second one, except that he has his mouth open.

As you pointed out earlier, whether Cam does his part or not, it all becomes irrelevant if the defense allows a score or the kicker fails to convert after Cam leads a drive. So, 2 of these 3 pics convey Cam as focused and ready and scheming about how he'll attack the opponents, and the other pic conveys no meaningful information at all. During the Seahawks-Panthers game, the TV cameras repeatedly showed Cam on the sideline. The best part, as a Hawks fan, is that he was on the sideline, puzzling and scheming, instead of on the field doing damage.

I apologize; I missed this reply.
While you used an actual thought process to interpret focus and determination, most people (namely ESPN addicts) will see those same pictures and interpret pouting or sulking. The intent of my post becomes clear: one's interpretation on a single snapshot is not an accurate depiction of another person's body of work.
I appreciate the fact that you showed your thought process and gave an informational answer. If you were interested, all three photographs were taken in victories. The one with his helmet on was when he was getting his ankle taped after a Saints' bounty hit. He missed a few plays, then returned to the field and threw a touchdown pass two plays later. The other two, I don't remember exactly. But actually all three pictures were from games the Panthers won.

The broadcast teams love to show Cam on the sideline. It gives them something to sensationalize. That's also the reason you can't go a snap without seeing Harbaugh's exaggerated reactions, or why every single Tom Brady high-five (or non high-five) has to be broadcast.

Even before I did the eye accessing cues research, the middle picture of Cam showed a guy who, to me, clearly was anticipating his next opportunity, probably looking at the scoreboard and thinking about the game situation and what he needed to do. I was honestly surprised at how constructive the body language was, when I thought I saw things that looked like sulking/pouting from Cam during the game on the sidelines. (Guaranteed if/when there was, the TV cameras would immediately cut to show him)

Anyway, what matters at any given time is how ready the Panthers TEAM is to follow Cam into battle and be on the same page and do what needs to be done. Cam could look "sulking", and it likely wouldn't make a whit of difference to his team on the field, after the way he led them to come-from-behind victories at the end of last season. His team is going to respond to him more based on past performances and their belief in what he can do.

In just the same way, the Seahawks are dialed into Russell Wilson's frequency, and they BELIEVE, and when the game is on the line for a 4th quarter winning drive, they always find a way. Except when they don't, LOL, against San Diego, Dallas, and St. Louis. But against Denver and lately Carolina, they did. 2-for-5. 1-for-2 in the post-Percy-Harvin era. (Good riddance!)

BTW, thanks for the pics and the thought-provoking test!

Last year, after the Seahawks won vs Carolina, I posted in the followup thread that we just won a game against a sure playoff team. (It's there somewhere, really!). This year, I think you guys have a decent shot to go on a roll here, but ouch! that O-line, and your defense isn't as smothering as last year's. That rookie WR of yours is a playmaker too, which can only help. So any chance of winning the division, making the playoffs, etc. is squarely on Cam's shoulders to make it happen in crunch time. I'm thinking 55-45 the Panthers make the playoffs. In any case, come on back and revive this thread in December, and let's see how things turned out. Good luck!

 

[olyfan63]

"Young" QBs I would take over Newton.
-Wilson, Luck, RG3, Tannehill, Foles, Carr, Glennon, Kap.

Newton never was that amazing, he was just severely overhyped as the #1 overall pick. He struggles with accuracy and is clumsy with the football.

Young QB's I would take over Cam:
1) Wilson
2) Luck

Too close to call, 6 of one, half dozen of another, or insufficient data
1) Foles
2) Carr
3) Stafford

Cam by a nose over:
1) Tannehill
2) Kaep

Cam for sure over:
1) RG3 (just really don't know what his health and longevity will be)
2) Glennon


Guess we'll get to see Carr close up, if he's healthy.
Tannehill, well he did lead an impressive GW 4Q drive against us in Miami as a rookie in 2012.
Stafford did the same.
I feel like Cam has more upside still to develop than Kaep.

 

[seabowl]

Another difference between Cam and Russell is even when the Hawks as a team play bad, Russell carries them on his nack and many times will LEAD them to victory. I don't recall seeing Cam do this (at least regularly) since being in the league. Time for the kittens to go back to their den and lick their wounds.

 

[RiverDog]

LOL on the Cam debacle tonight. He is really not anything other than an underachieving potential super star. He is suffering from RGIIIism - early success and no growth whatsoever. His numbers are on the decline.

If he could only get that head bolted on the right way and harness those talents. The head case that he portrays is well documented in this thread and from any casual observer. I fear that RunTheBall is right - a long term deal would sink the Panthers. But what choice do they have? He has so much damn potential and they'd hate to see him go to another NFC South team and face him twice per year (Tampa a likely landing spot if he doesn't get the deal he wants?)

Oh - and GooGoo - change your avatar - no longer sharing the NFC South lead. You're 3-5-1 now.

Good post. Cam is loaded with potential but he hasn't taken the next step. After last night, he's thrown an interception in his last 5 games and his completion percentage is well below 60% for the season.

I also agree with you about the predicament the Panthers are in, with an underachieving quarterback that's played just well enough to present his FO with a troublesome decision. It would be one thing if his career had gone like Jake Locker's has as it would make it a lot easier to cut bait and start over, but he's had these flashes of brilliance. It's a QB starved league, and there's a half dozen teams that would love to roll the dice with a QB like Cam.

 

[nsport]

Just saw that Ian Rapaport is reporting that Cam's deal is expected to be like Matt Ryan's. No Kaepernick deal for him. True handcuff right there.

**Edit** - now that this game is over, we should move this thread to the NFL forum.

 

[lobohawk]

As with many athletic QBs, Cam has developed with a handicap. When an issue arises he's learned to lean on his athletic ability. Fine in college, where he could overwhelm opponents. In the Pros, it's hard to consistently do that and be successful. You have to do all the other things to truly survive (read defenses, make adjustments, progress thru reads, accuracy, etc). Cam hasn't shown the ability to do these things or grow in these areas.

 

[HawkWow]

googoodan,

Do you like when he does that celebration after a first down? I like Cam Newton, but the way he does that is incredibly annoying. In a perfect world wouldn't you rather he just run back to the huddle?

Watching fans of the World Champions spazz about "nothing" is incredibly annoying, .

Well, considering you've put yourself smack dab in the middle of a Hawk's forum, it must not be that "annoying", right?

Cam definitely has an inflated ego, but that likely pertains to 90% of the players in the league. Hell, they made it to the NFL and didn't do that by walking around with inferiority complex's. OTOH, most are smart enough to feign humility, but that act only runs skin-deep.

I'm actually starting to like Cam Newton. The guy plays his nuts off and emotion is a HUGE part of his game, so with him, you almost just have to look away once in a while, while accepting he's just not overly bright.

The "Superman" routine? A bit tired but it is what it is. Most here will say Marshawn is a guy that doesn't like the limelight, or attention, but we see him wearing his BeastMode gear with regularity. Marshawn scores, he folds his arms in defiance and eyeballs the crowd. Cam unzips himself ("excuse me while I whip this out").

In the end who cares? Marshawn IS a fricken beast and "You ever try to tackle Cam Newton"? ~ Michael Bennett.

Instead of knocking the guy's QB play, I will just say he would have been one helluva TE.

 

[Tical21]

It was very telling that Cam scored a big TD last night while rolling over the pylon, and when he came back to the sideline he took a knee and none of his teammates came over to congratulate him or anything.

I'm not anti-Cam by any stretch, but do agree that his leadership quality is more Jay Cutler than Philip Rivers.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

LOL on the Cam debacle tonight. He is really not anything other than an underachieving potential super star. He is suffering from RGIIIism - early success and no growth whatsoever. His numbers are on the decline.

If he could only get that head bolted on the right way and harness those talents. The head case that he portrays is well documented in this thread and from any casual observer. I fear that RunTheBall is right - a long term deal would sink the Panthers. But what choice do they have? He has so much damn potential and they'd hate to see him go to another NFC South team and face him twice per year (Tampa a likely landing spot if he doesn't get the deal he wants?).

Not entirely fair.

It's not a coincidence that Cam had his best years when he had a good group of WR's, healthy RB's, decent O-line and a defense that didn't cough up 30 pts a game.

Now he has literally none of that, and thus his play is suffering.

I don't like his personality, body language or penchant for sulking and moping because I do think that negative energy rubs off on the team. But to call him RG3 and say he's on the decline isn't fair to me.

 

[nsport]

Sure - not that fair - but it's a lot more true than unfair. In year 1 he was a darling - a bazillion rushing touchdowns and lots of spectacular plays. The next year he still had smith. Now look at smith - #1 wr for Baltimore. He's always had greg olsen. and now he has a monster WR and a very good vet (cotchery). So... I would say stats clearly on the decline - continuity has been there.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Sure - not that fair - but it's a lot more true than unfair. In year 1 he was a darling - a bazillion rushing touchdowns and lots of spectacular plays. The next year he still had smith. Now look at smith - #1 wr for Baltimore. He's always had greg olsen. and now he has a monster WR and a very good vet (cotchery). So... I would say stats clearly on the decline - continuity has been there.

Last year was his best year as a pro, which just so happened to be one the best years for the Panthers ever as well, so I don't get the "clearly on the decline" statement.

8 games on a bad team does not clearly on the decline make.

 

[ctrcat]

LOL on the Cam debacle tonight. He is really not anything other than an underachieving potential super star. He is suffering from RGIIIism - early success and no growth whatsoever. His numbers are on the decline.

If he could only get that head bolted on the right way and harness those talents. The head case that he portrays is well documented in this thread and from any casual observer. I fear that RunTheBall is right - a long term deal would sink the Panthers. But what choice do they have? He has so much damn potential and they'd hate to see him go to another NFC South team and face him twice per year (Tampa a likely landing spot if he doesn't get the deal he wants?).

Not entirely fair.

It's not a coincidence that Cam had his best years when he had a good group of WR's, healthy RB's, decent O-line and a defense that didn't cough up 30 pts a game.

Now he has literally none of that, and thus his play is suffering.

I don't like his personality, body language or penchant for sulking and moping because I do think that negative energy rubs off on the team. But to call him RG3 and say he's on the decline isn't fair to me.

Good post, and I get that franchise QBs should overcome, no excuses, etc., but even last year his WR corps wasn't "good". Average at best. The whole world spoke of how horrible the rest of the offense would be this year, and a lot of that is simply coming true. The Panthers previous GM dealt a ridiculously bad hand by giving two injury riddled RBs large long term deals among other boneheaded things. Even this year Hardy is taking up 10% of the cap, which could have been used on OL. That's very hard to overcome in a dog eat dog league. It will be another year or two of purging bad salary, but GM Dave Gettleman has made all moves with the long term, not short term, in mind. The book on Cam isn't even in the middle pages yet and has a long way to go. Again, good post.

 

[nsport]

Last year was his best year as a pro, which just so happened to be one the best years for the Panthers ever as well, so I don't get the "clearly on the decline" statement. 8 games on a bad team does not clearly on the decline make.

I get your point. Well taken. The 12 win season last year followed two losing seasons. When you look at the totality of factors, Cam obviously was a part of those 12 wins, also a ferocious defense and the DPOY propelled them. Year 1 was like watching an XBOX game. Year 2 was a struggle - year three was marginally better statistically but they did make the playoffs (and lost to soundly to the 49ers).

However, the point was that for a guy coming up for a contract renewal - his stats have indeed declined in areas - although agreeably they are slightly up in some categories. Another point - the "when it counts" drives the last two weeks have been laughable for a guy coming up on his contract year and supposedly entering his prime. Not to mention the well-documented character traits pointed out in this thread by the many posters.

He's simply not a $25MM per year QB. His play on the field is not making a difference. His presence is not great. He makes dumb mistakes. He's not "clutch". The only thing he truly brings to the table is a little swagger and tons of potential which has not been reached (and doesn't appear to be coming any closer to being reached!) - tailing all the way back to the OP - these are the reasons why our QB has those leader/winner traits. You just don't see them in Cam Newton.

In case anyone needs his stats:
http://www.nfl.com/player/camnewton/2495455/careerstats

 

[Largent80]

Is Cam white enough to be Superman?

 

[HawkWow]

I applaud Carolina's decision to rid themselves, but unfortunately Newton as well, of Smith.

#1 receiver in Balt, yes, but a punkass just the same. We saw how well our guys kept the antics of Harvin under wraps, I can only imagine the headaches the headcase Smith caused in Carolina unbeknownst to the general public or Panther fans. He should have been out of the NFL after his attack on Ken Lucas, imo.

The "players are going to mix it up now and again" thing does not pertain here. What Smith did to Lucas wasn't "mixing it up", it was an assault, and probably of the hate crime variety. Actions you or I would have been jailed for. I've not respected the Panthers since that time. Smith should have been unceremoniously cut the same day, but I'm pleased they finally did the right thing, win or lose.

 

[HawkFan72]

What grit does Newton not show?
Does it not show grit when he leads the team to a lead in the closing moments, only for the defense (or kicker) to fail?





Does he not show grit being down 21-7, and winning? Or doing this to win the division last season...

Did you make these? Or are these just images that Panther fans pass around to make themselves feel better about Newton?

 

[chris98251]

Newton has physical abilitys, but he isn't very quick thinking, he pouts, last night he had his TE trying to pump him up, why is a TE having to keep this guy on track, as a QB he should be a leader telling them they will get it and rally. This is just a few things.

When I see Newton I see McNabb 2.0 without Andy Reid scheming for him and providing a supporting cast, think of McNabb in Washington.

 

[BleedGreenNblue]

I like Cam. Whats all the fuss about?