Wilson Improvement

[Evil_Shenanigans]

Definitely needs to work on holding the ball for Hauschka!

 

[Popeyejones]

I will echo the Niner fan and Tech. But with a caveat.

Brees throws a ton of middle stuff and climbs the pocket well. Which means Wilson can, theoretically. But the Saints aren't running the ball or some play action off the run on more than 70 percent of their passes like Seattle is either. Those quick slant routes are pretty much gone on play action. In addition, the Saints interior line is built to pass block those quick pass lanes for Brees, and paid well for doing it. It will require an offensive philosophy change that I don't expect for us to really use the quick short area a lot more. However, I am really curious to see if Harvin scaring the shit out of secondaries opens things up as much as it did in the SB in the short area. Better weapons down the field should equate to more good short area looks.

Agreed with this assesment, but I think we're talking past each other a tad.

Wilson's streaky accuracy definitely comes into play with the quick slant routes, but you're right in that they're not a big part of the Hawks' game, and that the reliance on play action makes the comparison to the Saints not totally relevant.

Regarding climbing the pocket and the goal of developing the ability to do so, be it from shotgun, on play action, or a straight dropback from under center, I'm just referring to what Wilson does from the three second mark on. There's basically two things going on IMO:

1) Too often Wilson bails from above the pocket at the three second mark, regardless of if there's pressure or not. He's basically relying on an internal clock -which all QBs do to some degree, as they should - rather than a combination of that internal clock and a feel for the rush. This could be an area for improvement.

2) In using that internal clock, just like college, he very rarely climbs the pocket. Instead he breaks outside, just goes farther and farther back if the ends have maintained contain, or looks for rushing lanes through the middle. He doesn't need to get to Drew Brees levels (or close to that, Brees is one of the best in the game in this regard), but it is an area in which he could stand to improve.

Basically these are two related but separate things, and his lack of development so far in them (let's not be too harsh, he's only been in the league for two friggin years) is how defenses contain him when they do contain him. They're things that elite QBs do, though.

And just to reiterate because as a 9ers fan I know I'll always be viewed with suspicion of concern trolling for stuff like this : Wilson is my favorite of the young QBs, and he'll continue to have success IMO even if he doesn't develop at all.

 

[Scottemojo]

I will echo the Niner fan and Tech. But with a caveat.

Brees throws a ton of middle stuff and climbs the pocket well. Which means Wilson can, theoretically. But the Saints aren't running the ball or some play action off the run on more than 70 percent of their passes like Seattle is either. Those quick slant routes are pretty much gone on play action. In addition, the Saints interior line is built to pass block those quick pass lanes for Brees, and paid well for doing it. It will require an offensive philosophy change that I don't expect for us to really use the quick short area a lot more. However, I am really curious to see if Harvin scaring the shit out of secondaries opens things up as much as it did in the SB in the short area. Better weapons down the field should equate to more good short area looks.

Agreed with this assesment, but I think we're talking past each other a tad.

Wilson's streaky accuracy definitely comes into play with the quick slant routes, but you're right in that they're not a big part of the Hawks' game, and that the reliance on play action makes the comparison to the Saints not totally relevant.

Regarding climbing the pocket and the goal of developing the ability to do so, be it from shotgun, on play action, or a straight dropback from under center, I'm just referring to what Wilson does from the three second mark on. There's basically two things going on IMO:

1) Too often Wilson bails from above the pocket at the three second mark, regardless of if there's pressure or not. He's basically relying on an internal clock -which all QBs do to some degree, as they should - rather than a combination of that internal clock and a feel for the rush. This could be an area for improvement.

2) In using that internal clock, just like college, he very rarely climbs the pocket. Instead he breaks outside, just goes farther and farther back if the ends have maintained contain, or looks for rushing lanes through the middle. He doesn't need to get to Drew Brees levels (or close to that, Brees is one of the best in the game in this regard), but it is an area in which he could stand to improve.

Basically these are two related but separate things, and his lack of development so far in them (let's not be too harsh, he's only been in the league for two friggin years) is how defenses contain him when they do contain him. They're things that elite QBs do, though.

And just to reiterate because as a 9ers fan I know I'll always be viewed with suspicion of concern trolling for stuff like this : Wilson is my favorite of the young QBs, and he'll continue to have success IMO even if he doesn't develop at all.

In a way, a really weird way, Wilson is a better comp for Ben Roethlisberger than for Brees. Both bail on the original call at about the 3 second mark. Wilson uses elusiveness to get the space to find a big play, Ben uses his size to shed sackers and find a big play. Both have that same thought process to create extra time so they can get the ball down the field. Both give up sacks that make their lines look worse than they are with all that running around. Brees is far more fundamental, and when flushed looks short first. While Wilson has said he watches Brees a lot so he can learn, I don't think he will ever have Brees fundamental approach. There will always be some helter skelter approach from Wilson. It is just part of the deal.

What I do know is that right now, the book on Wilson is mush rush the middle, and give the OLB's or spying linebackers license slow play Wilson just a bit, and attack Wilson if they even suspect he is keeping the ball on play action. It is a dangerous book that will only get more dangerous if we surround Wilson with weapons who can break press and improvise down field, a task our smallish wr group struggled with last year. I expect that to be a focus for the front office this year.

 

[TJH]

Better pocket presence, step UP not out.
Get the ball out faster.
Know your outlets.

 

[Popeyejones]

In a way, a really weird way, Wilson is a better comp for Ben Roethlisberger than for Brees. Both bail on the original call at about the 3 second mark. Wilson uses elusiveness to get the space to find a big play, Ben uses his size to shed sackers and find a big play. Both have that same thought process to create extra time so they can get the ball down the field. Both give up sacks that make their lines look worse than they are with all that running around. Brees is far more fundamental, and when flushed looks short first. While Wilson has said he watches Brees a lot so he can learn, I don't think he will ever have Brees fundamental approach. There will always be some helter skelter approach from Wilson. It is just part of the deal.

What I do know is that right now, the book on Wilson is mush rush the middle, and give the OLB's or spying linebackers license slow play Wilson just a bit, and attack Wilson if they even suspect he is keeping the ball on play action. It is a dangerous book that will only get more dangerous if we surround Wilson with weapons who can break press and improvise down field, a task our smallish wr group struggled with last year. I expect that to be a focus for the front office this year.

Great post, and GREAT comparison to Roethlisberger, given how different they are in many regards. I'd never thought of the comparison but couldn't agree more.

And Roethlisberger never really developed as much as some people were expecting, meaning, at this point I think we can consider Ben Roethlisberger to be Russell Wilson's floor. And on the other side of the equation, Drew Brees didn't really even start to look anything like the Drew Brees we now talk about until his last year in San Diego, which was his fifth in the league.

 

[rigelian]

I think the Super Bowl was a prime example of how Wilson looks if he gets reasonable time and if his receivers get even minimal separation. The ball comes out on time, he can pass into tight windows with velocity and if necessary he would buy a little time and extend the play. I think during the regular season Russell got into the bad habit of holding on to the ball a bit long on quick routes and pulled the ball down. He became a bit tentative and then rushed the pass at the last moment---just a bit late.

There was a bit on the Super Bowl Sound FX where Sherman and Thomas commented out early Russell got the ball out on a pass to Kearse. It was a pass down the seam and he let it go with velocity just behind the linebacker. It was a beautiful pass. Sherman or Thomas said did you see how early he made that pass...the other responded --yeah that's confidence.

This is what I hope we see from Wilson in the future.

 

[scutterhawk]

What I think Wilson should do, is exactly what he is doing.
He is an expert NFL Quarterback, and there isn't a MORE cerebral Quarterback in the NFL than Russell Wilson, and he's working out his areas of play, that he knows needs special attention.....In other words, he's honing the special skills that he knows are there, while playing the way that the Coaches want him to do.
After all the film studying he does, I believe he's putting everything together pretty darned good for a second Year Super Bowl winning Quarterback :thirishdrinkers:

 

[randomation]

^^^ He didn't do it at Wisconsin either, where he was almost entirely throwing off of roll-outs, scrambles outside, or above the pocket out of shotgun or on three step and strike drops from under center. Even in college if he was climbing the pocket there was a 90% chance he was looking for a lane to take off, and when that closed it resulted in a sack.

He doesn't have many holes to his game and he's a great talent not doubt, but this is definitely the big one IMO, and how NFL defenses have worked to contain him (i.e. DEs maintaining the edges and a spy over the middle, which he responds to too frequently by just going farther and farther back above the pocket or trying to make the DEs miss (which he's obviously very above average at in terms of success) rather than stepping in, which is EXACTLY what one needs to do to bust this scheme).

Honestly that year our line was actually somewhat in a down year without RW that year I don't know if we make a bowl to be completely honest his ability to improvise and avoid taking the sack was huge. Last year we had Joel Stave who is basically as immobile as manning without the talent but he had less sacks taken then RW that tells you how porous our line was the year that RW was here. Even with that I still firmly believe that if JJ Watt had stayed for that year we would have crushed anyone we played sigh.

Anyway climbing the pocket definitely but needs a cleaner pocket to do it.

 

[brimsalabim]

According to the guys on NFL live Russ is way ahead of us on all of this stuff and is already working on it.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

I dont think RW will ever play like Peyton Manning and considering what we saw in the superbowl it is a good thing. It's easy to say not stepping up in the pocket is his glaring weakness but it wasnt. Many DC will bring pressure up the A gap as a plan to test a shorter qb like RW. We saw this plan work effectively in his rookie year and we will continue to see it. This past year we saw many injuries and rotation on our O line which allowed more defensive pressure to get to RW. We also saw RW counter with bootlegs, deep drops and scramble to create plays which forces the defense to play honest and spy rather than flush him.
It's a matter of opportunity and O line talent but thus far RW has done superbly IMO.

 

[Perfundle]

Regarding climbing the pocket and the goal of developing the ability to do so, be it from shotgun, on play action, or a straight dropback from under center, I'm just referring to what Wilson does from the three second mark on. There's basically two things going on IMO:

1) Too often Wilson bails from above the pocket at the three second mark, regardless of if there's pressure or not. He's basically relying on an internal clock -which all QBs do to some degree, as they should - rather than a combination of that internal clock and a feel for the rush. This could be an area for improvement.

2) In using that internal clock, just like college, he very rarely climbs the pocket. Instead he breaks outside, just goes farther and farther back if the ends have maintained contain, or looks for rushing lanes through the middle. He doesn't need to get to Drew Brees levels (or close to that, Brees is one of the best in the game in this regard), but it is an area in which he could stand to improve.

A short QB climbing the pocket without the OL providing clear passing lanes is a recipe for not being able to see your receivers and having your passes tipped. Considering that the OL can't even pass protect that well, you can't ask them to think about passing lanes yet. Even 6'2" Rodgers has this issue, and Green Bay lost the Cincinnati game last year in part due to two tipped passes in the fourth quarter. At Wisconsin, Wilson had much better protection, and he would occasionally jump up and down to see better over the line. So unless Seattle gets much better linemen, Wilson's physical limitations will prevent him from improving too much on this.

 

[BleedGreenNblue]

His stiff arm . . .

Such a sexy stiff arm

 

[hawk45]

Healthy Percy catching a few short balls nullifies the rush and even a suspect OL because Wilson's other targets will have enough space for any quick throw he wants to make.

Unhealthy Percy and yeah, we'll need to see the OL improve if we want to see Wilson progress with stepping up in the pocket.