Wilson on Carrolls comment about wanting him to check down

[RiverDog]

I don't think there's any debate on who catches more blame from fans, media, whoever, it's Pete hands down. Which isnt really a problem. The only disagreement I have with Pete blame is where it concerns the offense and Russell. I think the assumption that he meddles with okay calling is way over exaggerated. The popular sentiment is the problems are 90%+ Pete, 10% OC/Russ historically. I think it's at best 50/50 and personally feel it's about 80/20 Russ's limitations.

The perfect offense for Russ is the version we had with Marshawn. He can hit big plays and in turn we can close games out with the run. He just cannot sustain a heavily tilted pass offense playing the way he does for an entire season and absolutely won't hold up in the playoffs when teams are good enough to take away option A and often B.

It doesn't matter where Russell goes or who he plays for, the results will be the same.

If it blows up at season's end, I'd be ok with trading him. I'm not married to anyone on the team coaches or players.

I think that's a reasonable take but I'd like to make a few additions/changes.

The head coach gets the blame for everything: Offense, defense, special teams, game management, draft picks, trades. Whether or not Pete "meddles" with the offense makes no difference in the long run. Whether it was a call to pass on 2nd and goal from the one in SB49 or Russell's decision to take two long shots from his own 13 in OT, it's Pete that must accept responsibility.

Secondly, I don't necessarily agree that the perfect offense for Russell was the one we ran when Beast was in his prime. Russell was a lot quicker back then, was a genuine threat in the read option, extremely elusive in the pocket. That is no longer the case. Russell is 32 years old, two years older than the magic age where most RB's hit a wall. He can no longer do his Houdini imitation and get out of near certain sack situations with that reverse spin of his. As we saw on our last offensive play of the Titans game, Russell still hasn't adjusted to the reality of his advancing age and still thinks he can get out of anything.

Like you, I'm not attached at the hip with Russell or Pete. I've long since lost my idolization of professional athletes/coaches and think of them more like depreciable assets rather than some sort of deity as some of my fellow 12's do. I'm all about the team. Do what ever necessary to win games, and if that means firing Pete and/or trading Russell, then so be it.

 

[K.J WRIGHT]

Trade him NOW ! He's only hurting his trade value. This team WILL not make the playoffs. Rebuild NOW!

 

[RiverDog]

He's a quarterback, not a deity.

He has flaws. He exacerbates them by stubbornly adhering to a harder, less efficient way of playing football. People criticized Pete for that for years. Russ deserves the same criticism.

No one does it alone. Every single quarterback needs a supporting cast. Russell won't get anywhere by refusing to use it to his advantage. He needs to get the ball out on time and reliably. He needs to stop spinning out of the pocket, because he can't get away with it as often anymore. He needs to stop looking off perfectly good targets for low percentage passes so the chains can move.

That doesn't mean that I am saying that he's bad or judging him unfairly in any way. The team has been built around Russell. That comes with responsibility, and when he falls short, it's game on to point out the things that he needs to do better. Acting like that takes anything away from him is weirdly cultish. This isn't a religion, Russell isn't an idol, and pointing out his issues is not sin.

That's as close to my take as anything I've read in this thread. Nice post!

 

[toffee]

He's a quarterback, not a deity.

This isn't a religion, Russell isn't an idol, and pointing out his issues is not sin.

May not be a deity, but certainly a Saint to some.

 

[LickMyNuts]

RW needs a good run game to be successful. He has struggled when the run game isn’t there. The offense ends up in a lot 3rd and long and we end up with 3 and out.

 

[LickMyNuts]

This isn't a religion, Russell isn't an idol, and pointing out his issues is not sin.

Same can be said for Pete Carroll, but yet some of us get crucified when we do.

No, you get crucified because you make a lot of generalist stupid comments that older and wiser fans can see through.

 

[OrangeGravy]

I don't think there's any debate on who catches more blame from fans, media, whoever, it's Pete hands down. Which isnt really a problem. The only disagreement I have with Pete blame is where it concerns the offense and Russell. I think the assumption that he meddles with okay calling is way over exaggerated. The popular sentiment is the problems are 90%+ Pete, 10% OC/Russ historically. I think it's at best 50/50 and personally feel it's about 80/20 Russ's limitations.

The perfect offense for Russ is the version we had with Marshawn. He can hit big plays and in turn we can close games out with the run. He just cannot sustain a heavily tilted pass offense playing the way he does for an entire season and absolutely won't hold up in the playoffs when teams are good enough to take away option A and often B.

It doesn't matter where Russell goes or who he plays for, the results will be the same.

If it blows up at season's end, I'd be ok with trading him. I'm not married to anyone on the team coaches or players.

I think that's a reasonable take but I'd like to make a few additions/changes.

The head coach gets the blame for everything: Offense, defense, special teams, game management, draft picks, trades. Whether or not Pete "meddles" with the offense makes no difference in the long run. Whether it was a call to pass on 2nd and goal from the one in SB49 or Russell's decision to take two long shots from his own 13 in OT, it's Pete that must accept responsibility.

Secondly, I don't necessarily agree that the perfect offense for Russell was the one we ran when Beast was in his prime. Russell was a lot quicker back then, was a genuine threat in the read option, extremely elusive in the pocket. That is no longer the case. Russell is 32 years old, two years older than the magic age where most RB's hit a wall. He can no longer do his Houdini imitation and get out of near certain sack situations with that reverse spin of his. As we saw on our last offensive play of the Titans game, Russell still hasn't adjusted to the reality of his advancing age and still thinks he can get out of anything.

Like you, I'm not attached at the hip with Russell or Pete. I've long since lost my idolization of professional athletes/coaches and think of them more like depreciable assets rather than some sort of deity as some of my fellow 12's do. I'm all about the team. Do what ever necessary to win games, and if that means firing Pete and/or trading Russell, then so be it.

Good points.

The head coach is certainly responsible for everyone else's performance, but that's way different than actively interjecting or interfering. The truth of the matter is, not one person outside that building knows how they all interact with each other during games or otherwise.

 

[OrangeGravy]

I don't think there's any debate on who catches more blame from fans, media, whoever, it's Pete hands down. Which isnt really a problem. The only disagreement I have with Pete blame is where it concerns the offense and Russell. I think the assumption that he meddles with okay calling is way over exaggerated. The popular sentiment is the problems are 90%+ Pete, 10% OC/Russ historically. I think it's at best 50/50 and personally feel it's about 80/20 Russ's limitations.

The perfect offense for Russ is the version we had with Marshawn. He can hit big plays and in turn we can close games out with the run. He just cannot sustain a heavily tilted pass offense playing the way he does for an entire season and absolutely won't hold up in the playoffs when teams are good enough to take away option A and often B.

It doesn't matter where Russell goes or who he plays for, the results will be the same.

If it blows up at season's end, I'd be ok with trading him. I'm not married to anyone on the team coaches or players.

I think that's a reasonable take but I'd like to make a few additions/changes.

The head coach gets the blame for everything: Offense, defense, special teams, game management, draft picks, trades. Whether or not Pete "meddles" with the offense makes no difference in the long run. Whether it was a call to pass on 2nd and goal from the one in SB49 or Russell's decision to take two long shots from his own 13 in OT, it's Pete that must accept responsibility.

Secondly, I don't necessarily agree that the perfect offense for Russell was the one we ran when Beast was in his prime. Russell was a lot quicker back then, was a genuine threat in the read option, extremely elusive in the pocket. That is no longer the case. Russell is 32 years old, two years older than the magic age where most RB's hit a wall. He can no longer do his Houdini imitation and get out of near certain sack situations with that reverse spin of his. As we saw on our last offensive play of the Titans game, Russell still hasn't adjusted to the reality of his advancing age and still thinks he can get out of anything.

Like you, I'm not attached at the hip with Russell or Pete. I've long since lost my idolization of professional athletes/coaches and think of them more like depreciable assets rather than some sort of deity as some of my fellow 12's do. I'm all about the team. Do what ever necessary to win games, and if that means firing Pete and/or trading Russell, then so be it.

Good points.

The head coach is certainly responsible for everyone else's performance, but that's way different than actively interjecting or interfering. The truth of the matter is, not one person outside that building knows how they all interact with each other during games or otherwise.

 

[pittpnthrs]

This isn't a religion, Russell isn't an idol, and pointing out his issues is not sin.

Same can be said for Pete Carroll, but yet some of us get crucified when we do.

No, you get crucified because you make a lot of generalist stupid comments that older and wiser fans can see through.

What are older wiser fans seeing that i'm missing then? By the way, been a fan since 76'. You?

 

[RiverDog]

Good points.

The head coach is certainly responsible for everyone else's performance, but that's way different than actively interjecting or interfering. The truth of the matter is, not one person outside that building knows how they all interact with each other during games or otherwise.

There's a delicate balance between a coach that micromanages his team and one that lets the inmates run the asylum. I can remember Chuck Knox saying that he's seen teams with an offensive coordinator that was in charge of the offense, a defensive coordinator that was in charge of the defense, a special teams coach that was in charge of special teams, and a head coach that wasn't in charge of anything.

You're exactly right, like any other relationship, be it player/coach or husband/wife, we don't know exactly how Pete and Russell interact with each other. But we do know that there's a difference of opinion that both parties could have kept to themselves but allowed to spill over into the public domain. It's a difference that bears watching.

Is this a little dust up between two intense competitors that lost a tough game or is it part of an expanding gulf, a gulf that started last season and led to rumors of a trade? I suspect that the answer will have a lot to do with whether we win or lose.

 

[irfuben32]

Trade him NOW ! He's only hurting his trade value. This team WILL not make the playoffs. Rebuild NOW!

I am on board. There is no way we win this murderers row of a division now.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Good points.

The head coach is certainly responsible for everyone else's performance, but that's way different than actively interjecting or interfering. The truth of the matter is, not one person outside that building knows how they all interact with each other during games or otherwise.

There's a delicate balance between a coach that micromanages his team and one that lets the inmates run the asylum. I can remember Chuck Knox saying that he's seen teams with an offensive coordinator that was in charge of the offense, a defensive coordinator that was in charge of the defense, a special teams coach that was in charge of special teams, and a head coach that wasn't in charge of anything.

You're exactly right, like any other relationship, be it player/coach or husband/wife, we don't know exactly how Pete and Russell interact with each other. But we do know that there's a difference of opinion that both parties could have kept to themselves but allowed to spill over into the public domain. It's a difference that bears watching.

Is this a little dust up between two intense competitors that lost a tough game or is it part of an expanding gulf, a gulf that started last season and led to rumors of a trade? I suspect that the answer will have a lot to do with whether we win or lose.

I'm guessing that gulf has been there since Russell started publicly lobbying for stuff, so 2-3 years. Up until Pete's comments this week, only one side has been publicly talking about any of it.

 

[RiverDog]

Trade him (Wilson) NOW ! He's only hurting his trade value. This team WILL not make the playoffs. Rebuild NOW!

I am on board. There is no way we win this murderers row of a division now.

I am open to the idea, too, but I'm not quite ready to advocate it. Call me stubborn, but Week 3 in a 17 game season where nearly half the teams make the playoffs is way too early to bail on any team. Hell, even the Kansas City Chiefs are 1-2.

The trading deadline is Nov. 2nd. We have plenty of time to ponder this possibility. Let's see how the next few weeks play out.

Check back with me after the Rams game. If we're 1-4 and the Rams, Cards, and/or Niners are 4-1 or better, then I'll join you in calling for it.

 

[RiverDog]

I'm guessing that gulf has been there since Russell started publicly lobbying for stuff, so 2-3 years. Up until Pete's comments this week, only one side has been publicly talking about any of it.

I agree. When Russell started openly advocating that we acquire Antonio Brown after the guy had become radioactive it seemed to me that he was meddling in decisions that were none of his business, at least not to the point of going public with it.

Then came this "Let Russ Cook" movement, that he openly embraced, followed by this offseason when his agent fueled rumors by putting out 4 teams that Russell would be open to a trade with.

These next few weeks are going to be interesting. If we think there was an open rift between Russell and Pete over Russell's failure to check down in our overtime loss against the Titans, imagine what's likely to occur if we lose our next two games and are sitting at 1-4.

 

[NINEster]

Many of us wonder just how good Wilson can be in a system that better leverages his strengths and focuses on the offense. (Like if Payton was Wilson's coach).

I don't know. A lot of people cite Payton as an offensive genius. But he would probably just tell Wilson to hand the ball off to Alvin Kamara, or the take the check down to Darren Sproles.

That offense operated as well as it did because they used the entire field, and ALL their play makers. It didn't rely on Drew Brees to make heroic throws to 1-2 receivers all day.

Correct.

But man, that 2011 Saints team was something else. Brees was just an unbelievable machine that made all the throws imaginable, a top OC's dream.

Got to remember, that a very mobile QB is a nice thing to have but by their very nature they have to resist playing within the system to an extent (unless that system is the current Lamar Ravens or old RG3 Redskins).

Wilson likes the hero ball because that's what he's best at.

 

[John63]

Many of us wonder just how good Wilson can be in a system that better leverages his strengths and focuses on the offense. (Like if Payton was Wilson's coach).

I don't know. A lot of people cite Payton as an offensive genius. But he would probably just tell Wilson to hand the ball off to Alvin Kamara, or the take the check down to Darren Sproles.

That offense operated as well as it did because they used the entire field, and ALL their play makers. It didn't rely on Drew Brees to make heroic throws to 1-2 receivers all day.

Correct.

But man, that 2011 Saints team was something else. Brees was just an unbelievable machine that made all the throws imaginable, a top OC's dream.

Got to remember, that a very mobile QB is a nice thing to have but by their very nature they have to resist playing within the system to an extent (unless that system is the current Lamar Ravens or old RG3 Redskins).

Wilson likes the hero ball because that's what he's best at.

Wilson likes Hero ball only because that is what he has been asked to do most of his career. Remember PC has said he wants to run and get chunk plays. Now this year he has changed his tune slightly.

 

[NINEster]

This isn't a religion, Russell isn't an idol, and pointing out his issues is not sin.

Same can be said for Pete Carroll, but yet some of us get crucified when we do.

Fire Pete is a daily cry.
How Pete ruined Wilson remain the most popular topic.

Look, let's be real here.

If anyone ruined anyone, it was the SF 49ers ruining Colin Kaepernick after the Super Bowl. They should have been all in on building a Kap friendly offense, retaining anyone and everyone needed to sustain that.

What Seattle did was 50x better than what the 49ers did regarding their QB. Yes, Wilson was going to be better than Kap long term with hindsight, but it wasn't clear as day back then, and the 49ers did Kap no favors.

This isn't a Stafford in Detroit type of holding back. Wilson isn't going to be monumentally better on another football team, IMO.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

. Wilson isn't going to be monumentally better on another football team, IMO.

I've been saying this for years.

For all the offensive philosophical butting of heads Russell and Pete have, Pete HAS installed an offense, and continues to take advantage of Russell's strengths.

And now Russell is in charge of this offense, and changes the play, what like 40-50% of the time now after he surveys the defense, moves protection, etc?

So anyone that thinks Pete is still holding back Russell? Nonsense. This is the offense that Russell would run on any team...........strong run game to take advantage of his great play action and accuracy downfield.

 

[Scorpion05]

. Wilson isn't going to be monumentally better on another football team, IMO.

I've been saying this for years.

For all the offensive philosophical butting of heads Russell and Pete have, Pete HAS installed an offense, and continues to take advantage of Russell's strengths.

And now Russell is in charge of this offense, and changes the play, what like 40-50% of the time now after he surveys the defense, moves protection, etc?

So anyone that thinks Pete is still holding back Russell? Nonsense. This is the offense that Russell would run on any team...........strong run game to take advantage of his great play action and accuracy downfield.

That's a silly argument. Russell would thrive more with a coach that is more aggressive, more willing to go for it on 4th down, and believes in him much in the same way Andy Reid believes in Mahomes, Brandon Staley believes in Herbert, etc.

By the time Russell moves on, it may be too late. But nothing in his pass attempts and overall play over the years suggests that the offense has ever been truly centered around Russell Wilson. A offense centered around Russell Wilson wouldn't be run first, nor would it require meddling by Pete. Your argument falls flat purely based on the way this team has drafted, and who has been prioritized (investing two 1st round picks in a safety).

There's a difference between YOUR view of Russell Wilson, and what another coach would do with Russell Wilson. YOUR view is that Russ is a limited QB who requires a strong run game. We're seeing with Kyler Murray what would have happened if an offense like that was tailored around a younger Russell Wilson. Matthew Stafford changed plays in Detroit. It doesn't mean the team INVESTED in their QB. There are a million examples of teams not fully investing in their QB unless you're committed to one point of view.

 

[Scorpion05]

Good points.

The head coach is certainly responsible for everyone else's performance, but that's way different than actively interjecting or interfering. The truth of the matter is, not one person outside that building knows how they all interact with each other during games or otherwise.

There's a delicate balance between a coach that micromanages his team and one that lets the inmates run the asylum. I can remember Chuck Knox saying that he's seen teams with an offensive coordinator that was in charge of the offense, a defensive coordinator that was in charge of the defense, a special teams coach that was in charge of special teams, and a head coach that wasn't in charge of anything.

You're exactly right, like any other relationship, be it player/coach or husband/wife, we don't know exactly how Pete and Russell interact with each other. But we do know that there's a difference of opinion that both parties could have kept to themselves but allowed to spill over into the public domain. It's a difference that bears watching.

Is this a little dust up between two intense competitors that lost a tough game or is it part of an expanding gulf, a gulf that started last season and led to rumors of a trade? I suspect that the answer will have a lot to do with whether we win or lose.

Your inmate running the asylum comments screams "know your place." I'd like to remind you we're in 2021, and players no longer need to "know their place." Good coaches collaborate with their players.

Antonio Brown is doing well in Tampa btw, so Russ was right for wanting him here.

Tom Brady gets input on offense. Aaron Rodgers literally bragged last night about him calling the plays. Josh Allen gets input, that's been documented. Justin Herbert is in his second year, and Brandon Staley has given several interviews since last night talking about how much he trusts Justin, and COLLABORATES with him on what to do from play to play. Game to game. Pete has never given Russ that level of trust or leeway. This isn't a theory, this is actually documented by Greg Olsen, and Pete Carroll himself.

Russell is forced to demand more because he isn't given that respect. He isn't given that respect, despite his actual performances because Pete has one way of thinking. And quite frankly, it's evident some fans do as well. Russell isn't behaving any differently from Rodgers, Brady, etc. I for one wanted him traded, so that we can stop debating about how successful he would actually be with a non-defensive minded coach.