The Pete Carroll era is over

SoulfishHawk":3g3586cy said:

So now John Schneider is garbage. :roll:

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I dont know about garbage but he has been pretty bad lately.

Didn't have a good last year or so. But he's been better than most over the duration of his time. And the front office can't predict that fluke injuries would happen to Kam and Avril, let alone Sherm getting his first ever injury. NO front office can predict that. They were forced to do some things they likely wouldn't have done w/out the injuries. And to add to that, the Malic thing, that changed everything.

SoulfishHawk":1g6jae7l said:

the front office can't predict that fluke injuries would happen to Kam and Avril, let alone Sherm getting his first ever injury..

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Sure they can, they can do what smart teams do, trade or don't extend their high price stars once the signs of aging and diminished play start occurring.

Guys like Avril, Bennett and Kam all showed signs of diminished return due to age and/or injuries.

But when you haven't drafted well in 3-4 years, and haven't done a good job of fixing major parts of your position groups, like the O-line..................then you have no choice but to hold onto aging players, because there isn't anyone half as good to take their place.

I love Pete and John, but no one can defend their poor decisions with trades, free agency and the draft for the past 3-4 years. Terrible, and the main reason we had to clean house this year.

Exactly.

It does not help to 'get rid of aging players' that are only 80% of what they were - when the guys you replace them with are not even comparable to that same player at 60%.

It is even worse when you take the money you saved and then spend it on someone that is average at best.

We do not have a coaching staff with the ability or acumen to outcoach a team on the field that has players of equal ability. We have to have better players.

And we are not getting them.

Whatever JS supposedly was, or Carroll supposedly was, for the past 3 years these are the guys we have now and these are guys that underproduced in the past 3 years. So unless things change, underproduction is probably a more reasonable expectation than some sort of amazing change & resurgence.

But hope with no reason behind it can sometimes manifest. So let us hope that in spite of all the information we have about how these guys have produced recently, reality will somehow be different than what most people would reasonably predict given the recent track records.

And maybe, just maybe, we can convince Carroll to stop this insane and misguided obsession with stopping the run as a goal in a league where you win by stopping the pass. That was probably responsible for that last UTTERLY STUPID selection of an underperforming DT in a thin DT group. We have a draft coming up and if we waste another high draft pick on a middling pass rush DT that 'can stop the run' - I am going to throw a stapler through a window.

So, they should have known that Kam and Avril would have likely career ending injuries? Yeah right.
If they would have traded either of those guys before last season, people would have been freaking out and saying how stupid they are. They can't win clearly. At least with those who have decided that they suck :roll:

We'll see, Pete and John have two years to try and give Allen proof that they can rebuild this roster into a contender.

Yes, I said rebuild.

Whatever it is, it has RE in front of it :2thumbs:

The PC SB era might be over but the PC epoch continues.

Well, Pete and John are somehow supposed to be able to predict injuries too :lol:

Sgt. Largent":3h858uia said:

Guys like Avril, Bennett and Kam all showed signs of diminished return due to age and/or injuries.

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They really didn't.

MontanaHawk05":24bsw56c said:

Sgt. Largent":24bsw56c said:

Guys like Avril, Bennett and Kam all showed signs of diminished return due to age and/or injuries.

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They really didn't.

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Avril and Kam surely did. Neither were playing anywhere close to their prime.

Um, Cliff had 11.5 sacks in 2016, and played in all 16 games. So, going in to 2017, he was playing just fine.

pittpnthrs":1zcjl4qo said:

MontanaHawk05":1zcjl4qo said:

Sgt. Largent":1zcjl4qo said:

Guys like Avril, Bennett and Kam all showed signs of diminished return due to age and/or injuries.

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They really didn't.

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Avril and Kam surely did. Neither were playing anywhere close to their prime.

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Cliff Avril, 11.5 sacks and 5 forced fumbles in 2016.

In 2017, he managed one sack - because he played for four games. Could have been a cliff he was falling - not enough of a sample size to tell. I think he's gone because of his injury, but honestly, that injury is a brutal one and an outlier. So people claiming Cliff wasn't up to snuff are dancing on the line a bit in that argument.

Bennett had 8 sacks this year and a ton of pressures.

Kam's contributions are intangible, and he was still making an impact this year if you know how to look at the tape.

You guys want to stand on age and injury RISK when justifying the cutting of players still producing at a Pro Bowl level, fine. That's not really a bad argument. But to argue that they weren't performing well is just contradicting the stats.

People are really just railing on Pete and John, next level. Oh well, we all have our opinions on them. I think they are better than many give them credit for, but this is an extremely important off season to say the least for these guys.

SoulfishHawk":228tqexd said:

People are really just railing on Pete and John, next level. Oh well, we all have our opinions on them. I think they are better than many give them credit for, but this is an extremely important off season to say the least for these guys.

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If Pete and John are being honest, they'd admit they probably deserve the railing if we're looking at the past 3-4 years of personnel decisions.

This isn't an either/or side for me to be on. I can appreciate what they accomplished delivering our Lombadi trophy, for that they'll never have to buy a drink in this town ever again.

But that doesn't mean I can't be critical of what's been going on the past 3-4 years with poor drafts and bad trades/free agent signings putting us in this hole.

MontanaHawk05":jikvnvsu said:

pittpnthrs":jikvnvsu said:

MontanaHawk05":jikvnvsu said:

Sgt. Largent":jikvnvsu said:

Guys like Avril, Bennett and Kam all showed signs of diminished return due to age and/or injuries.

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They really didn't.

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Avril and Kam surely did. Neither were playing anywhere close to their prime.

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Cliff Avril, 11.5 sacks and 5 forced fumbles in 2016.

In 2017, he managed one sack - because he played for four games. Could have been a cliff he was falling - not enough of a sample size to tell. I think he's gone because of his injury, but honestly, that injury is a brutal one and an outlier. So people claiming Cliff wasn't up to snuff are dancing on the line a bit in that argument.

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Was basing my opinion off of the eye test. He seemed slower and less effective to me, but you guys are right, it was only 4 games and theres no reason to believe he couldn't get it going a little later on. I admittingly jumped the gun there. Sad about the injury. Doubt he'll ever play again and he probably shouldn't.

MontanaHawk05":tryngoet said:

Sgt. Largent":tryngoet said:

Guys like Avril, Bennett and Kam all showed signs of diminished return due to age and/or injuries.

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They really didn't.

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The only one of the three that had an off year, save for injuries, was Bennett and even he was hurt last year and slowed b/c of it. Bennett's trade top Philly was truly for long term cap reasons and perhaps was in part personality related. Both Kam and Avril had played at high level until they were hurt, Abvril was coming off a Pro Bowl season as were Kam and MB.

I was huge fan of MB and his protest stuff I agreed with in principle, but he was always a tad outspoken and may have not been 'completely in' for the FO. I think the team will miss his contributions and hope they have a plan to replace his disruptive play.

If you factor in the past few years, even if you give JS credit for the first few - JS is nothing more than average.

But he is clearly not great at drafting, signing key FAs or scouting. So hopefully he is amazing at cap management.

Either way, it was pretty clear Kam and Earl needed someone to spot them.

You could easily argue that we lost a SB because we had both Kam and Earl play injured in it. (that contributed to how Brady came back) Since they most likely were injured in that Green Bay game.

So it was pretty egregious that knowing:

1. How important our secondary is to our success

2. How much our team play and tactics tends to wear down on our defense

That there was little effort in getting solid backups for our safeties when each time our safeties went down we literally become uncompetitive.

That our supposed GM could not figure out how important this was pretty much tells you all you need to know. Apparently a never-was-much-never-will-be was more important in spend on draft capital.

But to argue he had no idea that our safeties would go down? He should have, it happened yearly and our style of play exacerbated it.

jammerhawk":ud8100gq said:

MontanaHawk05":ud8100gq said:

Sgt. Largent":ud8100gq said:

Guys like Avril, Bennett and Kam all showed signs of diminished return due to age and/or injuries.

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They really didn't.

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The only one of the three that had an off year, save for injuries, was Bennett and even he was hurt last year and slowed b/c of it. Bennett's trade top Philly was truly for long term cap reasons and perhaps was in part personality related. Both Kam and Avril had played at high level until they were hurt, Abvril was coming off a Pro Bowl season as were Kam and MB.

I was huge fan of MB and his protest stuff I agreed with in principle, but he was always a tad outspoken and may have not been 'completely in' for the FO. I think the team will miss his contributions and hope they have a plan to replace his disruptive play.

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Out of the three, I thought Kam was the most evident when it came to losing a step. I remember watching games and never hearing his name being called or seeing those thunderous hits and was wondering what he was doing. Maybe its me, but that's how I perceived things.