It doesn't add up! (Athletic Article)

mrt144

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https://theathletic.com/994511/2019/05/ ... ule-of-53/

Charles Reep is known as both the founding father of soccer analytics and the man who “helped ruin decades of English soccer.”

Beginning in the 1950s, Reep published a series of papers examining the sequences that lead to scoring a goal. Reep found that most goals were scored after a series of three or fewer passes, which led to his recommendation: Teams should avoid long passing sequences by kicking the ball far down the field and trying to chase it down. Eventually, this advice became a cornerstone of English coaching.

The problem? Possession is fluid in soccer. Most goals were scored after short sequences because the vast majority of possessions were short sequences. When one accounts for the prevalence of each sequence length, it turns out that maintaining possession of the ball is associated with an increase in the likelihood of scoring a goal. The error in logic is akin to stating that motorcycles are safer than cars because there are fewer fatal accidents involving motorcycles, ignoring that motorcycles constitute a small percentage of vehicles on the road.

In other words, Reep’s advice was exactly backward. Reep’s contention that “passing for the sake of passing can be disastrous” was misguided.

We now turn to the Seahawks, whose actions suggest that they view passing with the same disdain that Reep did. And — like English soccer during the long-ball era — the Seahawks’ devotion to running the football appears to be based on bad math.

The article goes into the same kind of 'cart before horse' errors as we see specifically with the NFL and even more specifically with the Seahawks. Worth a read and even a subscription in my estimation. The Athletic does some really good work that compliments Fieldgulls and other Seahawks centric outlets and supplements our own thoughts here.
 
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DomeHawk

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mrt144":1052dycs said:
https://theathletic.com/994511/2019/05/31/not-adding-up-brian-schottenheimers-rule-of-53/

Charles Reep is known as both the founding father of soccer analytics and the man who “helped ruin decades of English soccer.”

Beginning in the 1950s, Reep published a series of papers examining the sequences that lead to scoring a goal. Reep found that most goals were scored after a series of three or fewer passes, which led to his recommendation: Teams should avoid long passing sequences by kicking the ball far down the field and trying to chase it down. Eventually, this advice became a cornerstone of English coaching.

The problem? Possession is fluid in soccer. Most goals were scored after short sequences because the vast majority of possessions were short sequences. When one accounts for the prevalence of each sequence length, it turns out that maintaining possession of the ball is associated with an increase in the likelihood of scoring a goal. The error in logic is akin to stating that motorcycles are safer than cars because there are fewer fatal accidents involving motorcycles, ignoring that motorcycles constitute a small percentage of vehicles on the road.

In other words, Reep’s advice was exactly backward. Reep’s contention that “passing for the sake of passing can be disastrous” was misguided.

We now turn to the Seahawks, whose actions suggest that they view passing with the same disdain that Reep did. And — like English soccer during the long-ball era — the Seahawks’ devotion to running the football appears to be based on bad math.

The article goes into the same kind of 'cart before horse' errors as we see specifically with the NFL and even more specifically with the Seahawks. Worth a read and even a subscription in my estimation. The Athletic does some really good work that compliments Fieldgulls and other Seahawks centric outlets and supplements our own thoughts here.

I know there are some soccer purists on the board who will vehemently disagree but after watching too much soccer it is my feeling that most soccer goals are the result of happy accidents. That is not to say that there aren't some spectacular plays on goal but that they are often the result of random, not planned, events.

As for whether we should pass more or not, we have the highest paid QB in the league, we should use every skill he possesses. And, that is not to say that we should go to a pass-happy offense, a balanced attack will always be the best offense when it sets the opposing defense on its heels. But that is predicated on the offense not only being balanced but less predictable.

What I AM saying is that we should have a passing attack that is capable of completing first downs and marching down the field when the opposing defense has stifled our running attack, e.g., the Cowboys' game. That, in turn, will open up the running game.
 

HawkGA

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Interesting. I'm only going off the snippet, as I'm not going to subscribe, but it does sound like they are tackling an interesting question. I've often thought most of our statistics are used in faulty ways. For example, the "when player X rushes for over 100 yards the team wins most of the time". Well, sure, but that's because when you have the lead, you tend to win. When you have the lead, you also protect that lead by running. So I certainly think there is room in sports for some smarter analysis than it has traditionally received.

Not 100% sure the article is getting to that though (but again, just based on the snippet). There are benefits to being different in football. If everybody else is passing, then there can be strategy gains to being a running team. Not that it surprises anybody, but that the teams are built differently. If 31 teams are built to defend the pass because 31 teams are pass happy, then there is an advantage (on offense) to being built to run.

Being balanced isn't necessarily better though. Having a "type" and then being able to deviate from that type and trick the opponent can have benefits. I think back to the Alexander years when the Seahawks ran the ball with a higher YPC to the right than to the left, despite having Jones and Hutch on the left side.
 
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mrt144

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HawkGA":2mgoauz6 said:
Interesting. I'm only going off the snippet, as I'm not going to subscribe, but it does sound like they are tackling an interesting question. I've often thought most of our statistics are used in faulty ways. For example, the "when player X rushes for over 100 yards the team wins most of the time". Well, sure, but that's because when you have the lead, you tend to win. When you have the lead, you also protect that lead by running. So I certainly think there is room in sports for some smarter analysis than it has traditionally received.

Not 100% sure the article is getting to that though (but again, just based on the snippet). There are benefits to being different in football. If everybody else is passing, then there can be strategy gains to being a running team. Not that it surprises anybody, but that the teams are built differently. If 31 teams are built to defend the pass because 31 teams are pass happy, then there is an advantage (on offense) to being built to run.

Being balanced isn't necessarily better though. Having a "type" and then being able to deviate from that type and trick the opponent can have benefits. I think back to the Alexander years when the Seahawks ran the ball with a higher YPC to the right than to the left, despite having Jones and Hutch on the left side.

Ill post the whole thing after someone assures me they subscribed. It is a bit chart heavy though.
 

Jville

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mrt144":110rfx95 said:
HawkGA":110rfx95 said:
Interesting. I'm only going off the snippet, as I'm not going to subscribe, but it does sound like they are tackling an interesting question. I've often thought most of our statistics are used in faulty ways. For example ..................................

Ill post the whole thing after someone assures me they subscribed. It is a bit chart heavy though.

Let's not revisit that mistake!
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Reference link >>> [urltargetblank]http://seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20981#p267096[/urltargetblank]
 
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mrt144

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Jville":39j40gs4 said:
mrt144":39j40gs4 said:
HawkGA":39j40gs4 said:
Interesting. I'm only going off the snippet, as I'm not going to subscribe, but it does sound like they are tackling an interesting question. I've often thought most of our statistics are used in faulty ways. For example ..................................

Ill post the whole thing after someone assures me they subscribed. It is a bit chart heavy though.

Let's not revisit that mistake!
** Posting Complete Articles or Videos **

Seahawks.NET/NET Nation does NOT allow complete articles posted from outside sources. Just a short paragraph or so with a link to the rest of the article IS ALLOWED.

You may NOT post premium or subscription based articles in their entirety, no exceptions. You may NOT post video containing a game or movie in its entirety, no exceptions. We don't want to hear from any more lawyers.

Reference link >>> [urltargetblank]http://seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20981#p267096[/urltargetblank]

Shoot! Well I tried guys!
 

knownone

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mrt144":21yurw13 said:
https://theathletic.com/994511/2019/05/31/not-adding-up-brian-schottenheimers-rule-of-53/

Charles Reep is known as both the founding father of soccer analytics and the man who “helped ruin decades of English soccer.”

Beginning in the 1950s, Reep published a series of papers examining the sequences that lead to scoring a goal. Reep found that most goals were scored after a series of three or fewer passes, which led to his recommendation: Teams should avoid long passing sequences by kicking the ball far down the field and trying to chase it down. Eventually, this advice became a cornerstone of English coaching.

The problem? Possession is fluid in soccer. Most goals were scored after short sequences because the vast majority of possessions were short sequences. When one accounts for the prevalence of each sequence length, it turns out that maintaining possession of the ball is associated with an increase in the likelihood of scoring a goal. The error in logic is akin to stating that motorcycles are safer than cars because there are fewer fatal accidents involving motorcycles, ignoring that motorcycles constitute a small percentage of vehicles on the road.

In other words, Reep’s advice was exactly backward. Reep’s contention that “passing for the sake of passing can be disastrous” was misguided.

We now turn to the Seahawks, whose actions suggest that they view passing with the same disdain that Reep did. And — like English soccer during the long-ball era — the Seahawks’ devotion to running the football appears to be based on bad math.

The article goes into the same kind of 'cart before horse' errors as we see specifically with the NFL and even more specifically with the Seahawks. Worth a read and even a subscription in my estimation. The Athletic does some really good work that compliments Fieldgulls and other Seahawks centric outlets and supplements our own thoughts here.
Maintaining possession is absolutely meaningless unless you are threatening to score. That means that creating chances quickly and getting the ball back quickly would be the optimal way to increase your scoring likelihood. Tactically that translates to an aggressive high press while counterattacking quickly into space, not maintaining possession.

My guess is the data actually shows that teams with better players are better at maintaining possession which leads to an increase in scoring likelihood... because they have better players. Unfortunately, that doesn't tell us anything about what the best strategy from an analytic perspective is.

I didn't pay for the article, but I'm sure the only 'bad math' is being used against the Seahawks.
 

Uncle Si

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DomeHawk":2ztlkzp8 said:
mrt144":2ztlkzp8 said:
https://theathletic.com/994511/2019/05/31/not-adding-up-brian-schottenheimers-rule-of-53/

Charles Reep is known as both the founding father of soccer analytics and the man who “helped ruin decades of English soccer.”

Beginning in the 1950s, Reep published a series of papers examining the sequences that lead to scoring a goal. Reep found that most goals were scored after a series of three or fewer passes, which led to his recommendation: Teams should avoid long passing sequences by kicking the ball far down the field and trying to chase it down. Eventually, this advice became a cornerstone of English coaching.

The problem? Possession is fluid in soccer. Most goals were scored after short sequences because the vast majority of possessions were short sequences. When one accounts for the prevalence of each sequence length, it turns out that maintaining possession of the ball is associated with an increase in the likelihood of scoring a goal. The error in logic is akin to stating that motorcycles are safer than cars because there are fewer fatal accidents involving motorcycles, ignoring that motorcycles constitute a small percentage of vehicles on the road.

In other words, Reep’s advice was exactly backward. Reep’s contention that “passing for the sake of passing can be disastrous” was misguided.

We now turn to the Seahawks, whose actions suggest that they view passing with the same disdain that Reep did. And — like English soccer during the long-ball era — the Seahawks’ devotion to running the football appears to be based on bad math.

The article goes into the same kind of 'cart before horse' errors as we see specifically with the NFL and even more specifically with the Seahawks. Worth a read and even a subscription in my estimation. The Athletic does some really good work that compliments Fieldgulls and other Seahawks centric outlets and supplements our own thoughts here.

I know there are some soccer purists on the board who will vehemently disagree but after watching too much soccer it is my feeling that most soccer goals are the result of happy accidents. That is not to say that there aren't some spectacular plays on goal but that they are often the result of random, not planned, events.

As for whether we should pass more or not, we have the highest paid QB in the league, we should use every skill he possesses. And, that is not to say that we should go to a pass-happy offense, a balanced attack will always be the best offense when it sets the opposing defense on its heels. But that is predicated on the offense not only being balanced but less predictable.

What I AM saying is that we should have a passing attack that is capable of completing first downs and marching down the field when the opposing defense has stifled our running attack, e.g., the Cowboys' game. That, in turn, will open up the running game.

You're wrong.. unless you think points in hockey and basketball are also happy accidents.soccer is extremely managed and controlled but with a great deal of fluidity.

Football is far more deliberate. Planning is methodical as the game is not fluid. Everything is planned, scripted and surveyed.

Two different games and hard to find comparisons.

Soccer is also the best sport in the world, so comparisons are not fair to American football
 

MontanaHawk05

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Ben Baldwin AND The Athletic: two sources I don't bother to read.
 

chris98251

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Uncle Si":cys7oy0f said:
DomeHawk":cys7oy0f said:
mrt144":cys7oy0f said:
https://theathletic.com/994511/2019/05/31/not-adding-up-brian-schottenheimers-rule-of-53/

Charles Reep is known as both the founding father of soccer analytics and the man who “helped ruin decades of English soccer.”

Beginning in the 1950s, Reep published a series of papers examining the sequences that lead to scoring a goal. Reep found that most goals were scored after a series of three or fewer passes, which led to his recommendation: Teams should avoid long passing sequences by kicking the ball far down the field and trying to chase it down. Eventually, this advice became a cornerstone of English coaching.

The problem? Possession is fluid in soccer. Most goals were scored after short sequences because the vast majority of possessions were short sequences. When one accounts for the prevalence of each sequence length, it turns out that maintaining possession of the ball is associated with an increase in the likelihood of scoring a goal. The error in logic is akin to stating that motorcycles are safer than cars because there are fewer fatal accidents involving motorcycles, ignoring that motorcycles constitute a small percentage of vehicles on the road.

In other words, Reep’s advice was exactly backward. Reep’s contention that “passing for the sake of passing can be disastrous” was misguided.

We now turn to the Seahawks, whose actions suggest that they view passing with the same disdain that Reep did. And — like English soccer during the long-ball era — the Seahawks’ devotion to running the football appears to be based on bad math.

The article goes into the same kind of 'cart before horse' errors as we see specifically with the NFL and even more specifically with the Seahawks. Worth a read and even a subscription in my estimation. The Athletic does some really good work that compliments Fieldgulls and other Seahawks centric outlets and supplements our own thoughts here.

I know there are some soccer purists on the board who will vehemently disagree but after watching too much soccer it is my feeling that most soccer goals are the result of happy accidents. That is not to say that there aren't some spectacular plays on goal but that they are often the result of random, not planned, events.

As for whether we should pass more or not, we have the highest paid QB in the league, we should use every skill he possesses. And, that is not to say that we should go to a pass-happy offense, a balanced attack will always be the best offense when it sets the opposing defense on its heels. But that is predicated on the offense not only being balanced but less predictable.

What I AM saying is that we should have a passing attack that is capable of completing first downs and marching down the field when the opposing defense has stifled our running attack, e.g., the Cowboys' game. That, in turn, will open up the running game.

You're wrong.. unless you think points in hockey and basketball are also happy accidents.soccer is extremely managed and controlled but with a great deal of fluidity.

Football is far more deliberate. Planning is methodical as the game is not fluid. Everything is planned, scripted and surveyed.

Two different games and hard to find comparisons.

Soccer is also the best sport in the world, so comparisons are not fair to American football


Only in places that don't have American Football. If it were then Networks would be paying the billions a season in advertisement and Merchandise Money etc to have it air on Television.

Also the argument that Soccer is new to the USA is empty, they have been trying to introduce it successfully for 40 plus years now.
 

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The Athletic has some decent pieces. The M's writers are pretty good and I think Michael Shawn-Dugar does a decent job at providing observations, you just have to account for the natural overconfidence found in every similar writer who is trying to portray authoritative knowledge.

This article by Ben Baldwin isn't particularly good. Most of the article is a legitimate but very commonly stated piece about separating causation from correlation. It's completely true that there's nothing magical about a specific number of completions and runs, or the exact numbers that define explosive plays that Pete likes to repeat. The counter argument from the Seahawks side is that having a goal is better than just not having one because the answer is unknown and it's all too complicated to plan.

The poor part of the article is when Baldwin goes on to claim there isn't much correlation between running and winning - which is entirely besides the point if you believe the bit about correlation and causation not being linked. The chart he is using shows a small positive correlation, which he massages for his message as "there isn’t much of a relationship between rush attempts and team success." Note that it doesn't show a negative correlation at all, which is what you would expect if running was truly bad for success.

The terrible part of the article is when he then leverages that lack of a strong correlation to jump to the causative conclusion that the Seahawks run too much. His real take is tacked on at the end: "Bad math has driven bad decision-making, with detrimental results on the field." But nowhere has he made the case for that, the rest of his article is only cautioning against mixing correlation with causation which is the very thing he is doing with that conclusion!??

Of course with today's journalism all that's needed to write a good piece is to have a conclusion that people like. All you really have to know about self professed "data analytic experts" like Baldwin can be found from his twitter:[tweet]https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1134523019945283584[/tweet]
 

AgentDib

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Uncle Si":gjnprm8z said:
Soccer is also the best sport in the world
Soccer is the most accessible sport in the world; all you really need to play is the ball. That makes it an extremely popular global sport, in much the same way that the accessibility of the McDonalds hamburger has led to them selling billions over the years. Most people would agree that Popular and Best are often wildly different.

Golfing in exotic locales probably has the strongest argument for best sport to participate in. The likelihood of people pursuing it seems very tightly related to their ability to do so and rises sharply with income brackets. Or perhaps the best participant sport is Yachting.
 

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Seeing a yank talk about "Soccer" is like watching them talk about culture. They are aware of it, the rest of the world likes it but they are so lacking in their own country they don't quite get it.
 

TreeRon

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Comparing soccer strategy with football? Kind of like comparing cricket to baseball or formula 1 to drag racing. In other words not really.
 

TreeRon

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UK_Seahawk":2bnnkf57 said:
Seeing a yank talk about "Soccer" is like watching them talk about culture. They are aware of it, the rest of the world likes it but they are so lacking in their own country they don't quite get it.

The best thing about being a "yank" and culture is that while our history is comparatively short, most "yanks" have ancestors from lots of places and WE get to bask in the culture of those ancestors as well as our own. :D
 
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