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Would you trade Carroll/Wilson for Reid/Mahomes today?

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  • I like Carroll and love Wilson but I have always felt that Wilson has propped up Carroll's stupid, outdated system and has bailed him out of losing records several times since the SB. Carroll does NOT build the team around Wilson, the teams best player.

    I like Reid and love Mahomes and think that Reid has made the teams best player the focus of the offense and built around him.

    So I would make the trade despite thinking Wilson is a great QB. If you want to be ranked 27th in the league in percentage of plays you pass you might as well trade Wilson for Derrick Henry and a mid-tier cheaper QB. A better coach could use Wilson in a way that he can get some MVP votes without going full Air Coryell on offense. Perhaps even letting the offense try to score in the first half.
    JayhawkMike
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  • No.
    sutz
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  • I would trade Carroll for Reid because maybe Reid would actually let WIlson do his thing for the entire game.
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  • In a heart beat.

    Just glad that the Cards didn't take Mahomes like I thought they should.

    He would have done well with Arians too.

    I would love to see Wilson under a more new-school, offensive minded coach.

    Like the Brady/Bellichick question, we will always wonder how Carroll and Wilson would do if they didn't have each other.
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  • JayhawkMike wrote: I...think that Reid has made the teams best player the focus of the offense and built around him.


    Because all those amazing highlight reels of Mahomes are of the QB playing entirely within structure, making at most three reads from the pocket and finding an open receiver within 3 seconds every time. ;)

    Mahomes is every bit the improviser that Wilson is.
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  • How is this debatable unless we are going just on sentiment?

    Of course yes.
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  • Of course yes. Mahomes is 24 years old.
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  • NOPE.
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  • DYLcurry59 wrote:I would trade Carroll for Reid because maybe Reid would actually let WIlson do his thing for the entire game.


    2.9 pts, that's the difference between the Chiefs and Hawks for PPG...........and before last year no HC took more crap from his fanbase than Reid for never getting to SB.

    Oh how we love the flavor of the week and what have you done for me lately short term wants and needs.
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  • Reid has always been the better football mind. He has lacked the Elite QB to get over the hump with Mahomes he has that. Alas he also has the weight of the elite QB contract and we will have to see if the chiefs can adapt to that That is what proves difficult in contending for multiple championships. I would make the trade just to rid ourselves of Carroll but also believe Mahomes has more upside than Russ at their respective career stages.
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  • It's a flavour choice. Do you want an offensive minded HC or defensive minded HC? Mahomes is a rare player indeed but then again so is Wilson. I believe Wilson has done more with less than just about any other QB in the NFL certainly Mahomes has more offensive weapons available to him than does Wilson.

    To me given our personnel on both sides of the ball I'd rather keep PC and RW. As well now the Mahomes has his new deal I prefer the deal Wilson has and suspect KC will struggle with trying to fit a quality SB winning roster under the cap going forward.

    My answer is NO!
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  • Wonder what Russ might have done with an O line the likes of which KC normally fields, and how well Mahomes would have done surrounded by the support Russ has had.
    Appyhawk
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  • Carroll needs Wilson more than Wilson needs Carroll . I've been a Hawks fan since 1976 . It's a team sport and spotlighting individuals doesn't interest me that much . If I had to choose for the sake of the Seahawks. I would swap for Reid/Mahomes tomorrow .
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  • Reid made Alex Smith and other mediocre QBs really good.

    I'd love to see what Reid/Wilson could do.
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:I like Carroll and love Wilson but I have always felt that Wilson has propped up Carroll's stupid, outdated system and has bailed him out of losing records several times since the SB. Carroll does NOT build the team around Wilson, the teams best player.

    I like Reid and love Mahomes and think that Reid has made the teams best player the focus of the offense and built around him.

    So I would make the trade despite thinking Wilson is a great QB. If you want to be ranked 27th in the league in percentage of plays you pass you might as well trade Wilson for Derrick Henry and a mid-tier cheaper QB. A better coach could use Wilson in a way that he can get some MVP votes without going full Air Coryell on offense. Perhaps even letting the offense try to score in the first half.



    So one your post does not mention the trade of Mahomes/Reid and Carroll/Wilson.

    That said I agree with all you said.

    However, given the talent on this team on offense is way less than what Mahome has now there is no guarantee he would have the same success. We really dont know how much of Mahomes success is the systems, other player. Let me remind you it is the same system that made Smith look like All pro for a few years. Though I suspect he is a very good QB would he be as good with less talent, to include going form top 5 oline to bottom 5. Also he missed 3 games in his foirst 2 years Wilson missed none, behind our oline in the system Reid uses he would get killed.
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  • bigskydoc wrote:In a heart beat.

    Just glad that the Cards didn't take Mahomes like I thought they should.

    He would have done well with Arians too.

    I would love to see Wilson under a more new-school, offensive minded coach.

    Like the Brady/Bellichick question, we will always wonder how Carroll and Wilson would do if they didn't have each other.



    Well we know Wilson woudl do as good or better.

    As for Carroll well we also know he has been a HC before and nada till he got Wilson.
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  • This is a very hard one because of my allegiance to the Hawks and this is the best quarterback coach that we’ve ever had. much as I like Russell and Pete . Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid are going to have a shot a lot of Super Bowls . IMHO Patrick Mahomes is the quarterback that everybody’s been looking for Almost undefendable and whoever the coach hooked up with him is going to look real good plus Andy Reid is a hell of a football coach on top of it all .
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  • Of course would take Reid/Mahomes. Reid would actualy get a good OL and good WR's instead of PC.
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  • This is only a debate among Seahawk fans. Nobody else is even considering Carroll/Wilson over Reid/Mahomes.

    As for the Carroll vs Reid part: I really don't care that much. I've had the opinion for a while that Reid is overrated as a head coach (good for him for last season though). Pete would certainly be one of the first names I'd mention after Belichick when listing the best coaches of the past decade, but the current version... MAYBE fringe top-10. I don't want him fired or anything, but I wouldn't be super upset if he decided that this upcoming season was going to be his last. And while Reid is six years younger than Carroll, Reid is not exactly a paragon of health. In my mind, their age difference is only represented by a number. If coordinators are coming along too, I'll take Reid, but the head coach part of this argument isn't enough for me to definitively answer the main question.

    As for Russ vs Mahomes… yeah, you take Mahomes. They're both elite in virtually every metric. They're both high-end leaders, they win, they can make all the throws, they're both very improvisational and can make plays on their feet. Even those who feel an obligation to rip Mahomes to prop Russ can't even come up with any criticisms that actually involve his play, it's just the "he's got good players around him", "you can't prove he'd be as good on another team", blah, blah, blah. You'd have to be a special kind of delusional to not see how special he is. He would be spectacular in any system. If people want to debate who is "better" right now, then whatever, but what cannot be debated is that Mahomes is seven years younger, so give me that. Taking the younger guy going forward would in no way diminish what Russ has done for this franchise.
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  • Rat wrote:This is only a debate among Seahawk fans. Nobody else is even considering Carroll/Wilson over Reid/Mahomes.

    As for the Carroll vs Reid part: I really don't care that much. I've had the opinion for a while that Reid is overrated as a head coach (good for him for last season though). Pete would certainly be one of the first names I'd mention after Belichick when listing the best coaches of the past decade, but the current version... MAYBE fringe top-10. I don't want him fired or anything, but I wouldn't be super upset if he decided that this upcoming season was going to be his last. And while Reid is six years younger than Carroll, Reid is not exactly a paragon of health. In my mind, their age difference is only represented by a number. If coordinators are coming along too, I'll take Reid, but the head coach part of this argument isn't enough for me to definitively answer the main question.

    As for Russ vs Mahomes… yeah, you take Mahomes. They're both elite in virtually every metric. They're both high-end leaders, they win, they can make all the throws, they're both very improvisational and can make plays on their feet. Even those who feel an obligation to rip Mahomes to prop Russ can't even come up with any criticisms that actually involve his play, it's just the "he's got good players around him", "you can't prove he'd be as good on another team", blah, blah, blah. You'd have to be a special kind of delusional to not see how special he is. He would be spectacular in any system. If people want to debate who is "better" right now, then whatever, but what cannot be debated is that Mahomes is seven years younger, so give me that. Taking the younger guy going forward would in no way diminish what Russ has done for this franchise.



    Srrs question, what did Russ do for this franchise?
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  • Hell No.

    This Seahawks coach/QB duo has brought me more joy than any other.

    My sentimental ways may cause me pain in the future but i own them for now.
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  • Grass is greener syndrome from someone that never had to deal with the 90's much and seen Dan McQwire in action.
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  • Rat wrote:
    As for Russ vs Mahomes… yeah, you take Mahomes. They're both elite in virtually every metric. They're both high-end leaders, they win, they can make all the throws, they're both very improvisational and can make plays on their feet. Even those who feel an obligation to rip Mahomes to prop Russ can't even come up with any criticisms that actually involve his play, it's just the "he's got good players around him", "you can't prove he'd be as good on another team", blah, blah, blah. You'd have to be a special kind of delusional to not see how special he is. He would be spectacular in any system. If people want to debate who is "better" right now, then whatever, but what cannot be debated is that Mahomes is seven years younger, so give me that. Taking the younger guy going forward would in no way diminish what Russ has done for this franchise.


    It's the age IMO that's the biggest factor, seven years is a lifetime of production in the NFL.

    But if you took out age, I'd still take Wilson over Mahomes. More dependable, more durable, and production in SPITE of being in a far more balanced offensive scheme is very close.

    But taking age into account? Yes, hands down Mahomes. I could never pass up seven more years of elite QB play.
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  • I would trade jayhawk Mike for an accurate covid test.
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  • Absolutely would make the trade
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  • I like both Reid and Mahomes, but for Seattle I like Carroll/Wilson better.
    We have somewhat weathered the storm of Wilson's contract. Chiefs have just begun to deal with the problems they're gonna have to deal with.
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  • chris98251 wrote:Grass is greener syndrome from someone that never had to deal with the 90's much and seen Dan McQwire in action.

    Ah yes any perceived slight against Carroll always goes to someone mentioning the 90s. You're forgetting something though, in this hypothetical scenario we'd be trading Wilson/Carroll for another premier coach and and QB combo. Reid has as many Superbowl appearances as Carroll and Wilson/Mahommes are both top QBs. This conversation isn't "get rid of Carroll". In fact Reid only has three seasons in his career that he has finished under .500. We wouldn't be trading Carroll for the coaches we had in the 90s. Now, this will never happen, and it's only a hypothetical.

    I do think I personally would take the trade just due to the age of the QBs, though the salary of Mahommes is off putting. Mahommes offers more potential years of elite QB play just due to his age. Reid, I'm not the biggest fan of, he knows how to win in the regular season but often chokes in the postseason -- though Carroll hasn't been too good in the postseason since '14 either.
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  • Largent80 wrote:I would trade jayhawk Mike for an accurate covid test.


    Still a couple cans short of a six pack eh? Why advertise it?
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  • Nope, Keep Carroll/Wilson.

    Mahomes could still have his RGIII moment. So could Russ, but he's been very durable and available.
    We just need to fix our defense, either way.
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  • So if I say Aaron Rodgers won 3+ Super Bowls in 2010 alone, people say I'm out of touch with reality.. but if someone else says they would take Russell Wilson over Patrick Maholmes, nobody calls them out for how crazy that is?!

    C'mon, guys.
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  • No. Carroll with all his faults,still ahead of Reid,and Mahomes(as good as he is)still a ways to go to overtake the leagues
    best QB Russell Wilson.IMO. :2thumbs:
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  • Yep. We have a case of "what have you done for me lately" going on.
    Reid/Mahomes just got the SB trophy and suddenly they're a dynasty. Same thing happened for us in 2013. Lets add Belichek/Brady to this conversation. Which pair is the best?
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  • Yeah, if anything Carroll only wins because of Wilson and an elite defense.

    With Reid and Mahomes, Reid wins BECAUSE of Mahomes.

    Carroll cannot win with only Wilson.

    Carroll cannot win WITHOUT an ELITE defense.

    And I am positive Chiefs fans aren't as frustrated the way Seahawks fans are with stalled offense in quarters 1-3, damn near, the entire game!

    I absolutely disagree with Carroll's philosophy, "You cannot win until the fourth quarter" BS he sells cause you can damn sure lose the game from quarters one through three and cannot come back so far behind with very little time left.
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  • I believe in Carrol's philosophy IF you have the personnel to support it. The thing I disagree with is the way they have gone about constructing offensive lines. Football is football, and football games are won in the trenches. Seems like they think having one stud on the O Line takes care of that.
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  • Lol.... Carroll can't win without an elite defense.

    Last year's defense was damn near league worst.
    Team went 11-5 and won a playoff game.
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  • Yes.

    I would prefer Wilson and Reid over Mahomes and Carroll as well.
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  • TheLegendOfBoom wrote:Yeah, if anything Carroll only wins because of Wilson and an elite defense..


    11-5 and one drive away from the NFC Championship game last year with the #22 rated defense.

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... 19/opp.htm

    Yes, it's true when you have an elite defense you win more. But that's not mutually exclusive to us. Chiefs had the 24th ranked defense in 2018, and figured it out that defense wins......so they went out and got Clark and the Honey Badger. Voila, top 10 defense and SB.

    Now they're in the same boat as Schneider and Carroll, trying to build a roster after giving their QB 20% of the salary cap. So we'll see just what an offensive genius Reid is now that he doesn't have his elite QB on a rookie contract.
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  • Largent80 wrote:Lol.... Carroll can't win without an elite defense.

    Last year's defense was damn near league worst.
    Team went 11-5 and won a playoff game.

    And then could not stop Aaron Rodgers and Davante Adams at all!

    Philly squeaked by to get into playoffs.

    Wentz had no receivers to throw too.

    That playoff game against the Eagles was not anything to hold your heads up high on.

    The Eagles barely got in.

    Carroll has yet to prove it is his system that wins championships and not elite players.

    So far Carroll has come up short!

    Carroll is so lucky Wilson is his QB.

    Wilson alone wins Carroll 10 games.
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  • Sorry Admins....But this is really a dumb question.......Mahomes with a $500,000,000 price tag? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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  • scutterhawk wrote:Sorry Admins....But this is really a dumb question.......Mahomes with a $500,000,000 price tag? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    You do realize that Mahomes very likely won’t see the entire half a billion dollars right?
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  • TheLegendOfBoom wrote:
    scutterhawk wrote:Sorry Admins....But this is really a dumb question.......Mahomes with a $500,000,000 price tag? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    You do realize that Mahomes very likely won’t see the entire half a billion dollars right?


    He almost certainly will, unless he suffers a career ending injury or massive drop off.

    If anything, it's more likely that he restructures to get paid even more, when, in 3-4 years time, he's no longer the highest paid QB (because Wilson will of course, reclaim his rightful spot as best, and best paid QB in the league).

    Technically speaking, Wilson is on a higher Avg per year than Mahomes between now and the end of his contract anyway.
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  • Largent80 wrote:Lol.... Carroll can't win without an elite defense.

    Last year's defense was damn near league worst.
    Team went 11-5 and won a playoff game.

    Seattle had a hard time getting past the Philadelphia Eagles. A team that lost their starting QB early in the game -- the backup QB was over 40 years old and was a career journeyman. Since 2015 the Seahawks have more losses in the playoffs than wins.

    We can also talk about how Carroll helped build that near league worst defense. Since 2015 the Seahawks defense has declined in each and every year in just about every metric. One of the biggest culperates was Pete's inability to draft or keep defensive lineman that are worth anything. Or we'd get a big name and have that player just be a poor scheme fit like Sheldon Richardson. Our interior line has also been a huge issue. We've been trying to solve this issue for years now and we remain unable to.

    Personally I think Carroll has peaked. I do not think he is capable of winning another championship, and I do not believe he will ever win another again.

    Why won't he? He doesn't have the same advantages afforded to him that he had when he first came into the NFL. The first thing we must mention is he had an inside scoop on just about every player he drafted. Most of those guys he picked up in his first few years he had some kind of personal history with. The second thing Carroll took advantage of is his scheme. In the Seahawks scheme, Carroll favored attributes and player types that were considered to be nothing more than role players. We're talking big cornerbacks such as Sherman, Maxwell and Browner. A safety that was considered too slow, too stiff and were seen as a weird safety linebacker hybrid in Kam, and quick, undersized pass rushers such as Brock, Irvin, Clemons, and even Avril.

    With the advantage he was afforded of inside information and an unorthodox scheme, Carroll was able to assemble the best defense of the modern era. Unfortunately his success didn't go unnoticed. Other teams saw what Carroll was doing and poached our staff, stole or schemes and went after the types of players that previously nobody touched. In addition tot his he had to pay his Quarterback. I'm not convinced that he could ever replicate that on another team.

    Since our SuperBowl runs we've gotten a glimpse of some major flaws in his system and the way he goes about coaching the game. I think that Russell Wilson covers quite a flaws that exist within his system and coaching. I don't think Carroll is a bad coach, in some ways he's very good. I just think that this point in time he is a Marty Schottenheimer figure.
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  • scutterhawk wrote:Sorry Admins....But this is really a dumb question.......Mahomes with a $500,000,000 price tag? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    There must be a lot of QBs you’d take over Russ then.
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  • I do not play video game football (Madden) but I did read an article yesterday about it.

    It seems this argument is valid.

    Russ & Pat are the only 2 QBs with “madden” ratings over 95, with Pat edging out Russ by a slight margin.

    :{)
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  • Rat wrote:
    scutterhawk wrote:Sorry Admins....But this is really a dumb question.......Mahomes with a $500,000,000 price tag? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    There must be a lot of QBs you’d take over Russ then.

    Just about everybody in here b*tched & moaned about how much the Seahawks were crippling themselves by paying Wilson......Thank You for making my point. :smilingalien:
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    Largent80 wrote:Lol.... Carroll can't win without an elite defense.

    Last year's defense was damn near league worst.
    Team went 11-5 and won a playoff game.

    Seattle had a hard time getting past the Philadelphia Eagles. A team that lost their starting QB early in the game -- the backup QB was over 40 years old and was a career journeyman. Since 2015 the Seahawks have more losses in the playoffs than wins.

    We can also talk about how Carroll helped build that near league worst defense. Since 2015 the Seahawks defense has declined in each and every year in just about every metric. One of the biggest culperates was Pete's inability to draft or keep defensive lineman that are worth anything. Or we'd get a big name and have that player just be a poor scheme fit like Sheldon Richardson. Our interior line has also been a huge issue. We've been trying to solve this issue for years now and we remain unable to.

    Personally I think Carroll has peaked. I do not think he is capable of winning another championship, and I do not believe he will ever win another again.

    Why won't he? He doesn't have the same advantages afforded to him that he had when he first came into the NFL. The first thing we must mention is he had an inside scoop on just about every player he drafted. Most of those guys he picked up in his first few years he had some kind of personal history with. The second thing Carroll took advantage of is his scheme. In the Seahawks scheme, Carroll favored attributes and player types that were considered to be nothing more than role players. We're talking big cornerbacks such as Sherman, Maxwell and Browner. A safety that was considered too slow, too stiff and were seen as a weird safety linebacker hybrid in Kam, and quick, undersized pass rushers such as Brock, Irvin, Clemons, and even Avril.

    With the advantage he was afforded of inside information and an unorthodox scheme, Carroll was able to assemble the best defense of the modern era. Unfortunately his success didn't go unnoticed. Other teams saw what Carroll was doing and poached our staff, stole or schemes and went after the types of players that previously nobody touched. In addition tot his he had to pay his Quarterback. I'm not convinced that he could ever replicate that on another team.

    Since our SuperBowl runs we've gotten a glimpse of some major flaws in his system and the way he goes about coaching the game. I think that Russell Wilson covers quite a flaws that exist within his system and coaching. I don't think Carroll is a bad coach, in some ways he's very good. I just think that this point in time he is a Marty Schottenheimer figure.



    This. Until either PC plays a system on both offense and defense to match his players, or we get a new coach we will be a 2nd round knock out at best and even that only because Wilson is that freaking good. Lots of talk this year even from PC on change sin style and or system we will see. If it same old, same old we are at best 2nd round and done. More likely out of the playoffs. If he changes or modifies his systems to what we have well the skies the limit.
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  • scutterhawk wrote:
    Rat wrote:
    scutterhawk wrote:Sorry Admins....But this is really a dumb question.......Mahomes with a $500,000,000 price tag? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    There must be a lot of QBs you’d take over Russ then.

    Just about everybody in here b*tched & moaned about how much the Seahawks were crippling themselves by paying Wilson......Thank You for making my point. :smilingalien:

    That’s a huge exaggeration. The vast majority were very much in favor of his new contract. Some questioned whether you can win a championship with a QB taking up so much of the cap, but there was very little of what you’re claiming “just about everybody” did.
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  • Looking at our lineup as it stands right now I have a hard time seeing anything close to "skies the limit" except maybe a bowl game in Montana.
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  • scutterhawk wrote:
    Rat wrote:
    scutterhawk wrote:Sorry Admins....But this is really a dumb question.......Mahomes with a $500,000,000 price tag? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    There must be a lot of QBs you’d take over Russ then.

    Just about everybody in here b*tched & moaned about how much the Seahawks were crippling themselves by paying Wilson......Thank You for making my point. :smilingalien:


    Wilson is absolutely worth the money but more so if they would structure the offense around him.

    Now it is "we are going to do it our way that worked when we had Beastmode and a world class defense, a better offensive line and a more mobile version of RW" until the 3rd or 4th quarter when we know it has failed then let RW dig us out of a hole.

    It should be "lets score early and often to support a subpar defense and hopefully get a big enough lead to get our subs some experience and starters a rest in the 3rd/4th quarter." Also saves some starters from injury and keeps them rested. Right now they need to be out there every play or we will lose.
    JayhawkMike
    NET Starter
     
    Posts: 377
    Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:06 pm


  • Rat wrote:
    scutterhawk wrote:
    Rat wrote:
    scutterhawk wrote:Sorry Admins....But this is really a dumb question.......Mahomes with a $500,000,000 price tag? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    There must be a lot of QBs you’d take over Russ then.

    Just about everybody in here b*tched & moaned about how much the Seahawks were crippling themselves by paying Wilson......Thank You for making my point. :smilingalien:

    That’s a huge exaggeration. The vast majority were very much in favor of his new contract. Some questioned whether you can win a championship with a QB taking up so much of the cap, but there was very little of what you’re claiming “just about everybody” did.

    "Exaggeration" My Non-petite pettutie, There has been Page After Page After Page, Post After Post After Post of folks RIGHT HERE that were ARGUING OTHERWISE....AND STILL ARE
    .
    scutterhawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 7357
    Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:48 pm


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