Seahawks' Opponent Penalties: Team Average vs. SEA Game

gulliver

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My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, and equal apologies if this is deemed to be a conspiracy worthy of a Niners fan, but...

I read an interesting post about how the Seahawks’ opponents were faring in terms of penalties when they played the Seahawks, vs. that team’s normal average. This person had looked at a few games and felt things looked off, but didn’t look at the whole season so far. It was an interesting premise, so I did it myself.

Specifically, I looked at each Seahawks opponent through Week 8, and compared their season average (excluding vs. Seattle) to their game against us. It involved looking at 53 games and 7 opponents in all. I looked at opponents’ games before and after they played us. To calculate team averages, I appropriately excluded each team’s game vs. Seattle.

I suspect how you interpret the results will say a lot about your receptivity to the idea that we—or the reigning champs in general—are disproportionately scrutinized by league officials.

In any event, those results show that, on average:

  • Seahawks’ opponents had -26.2% fewer penalties when they played the Seahawks than when they played their other games
  • They also had -33.0% fewer penalty yards when they played the Seahawks than when they played their other games
  • Overall, 4 of 7 Seahawks opponents had fewer penalties against the Seahawks. 1 (San Diego) was the same as their average, and only 2 (Dallas & Green Bay) had worse-than-average penalties.
  • Overall, 5 of 7 Seahawks opponents had fewer penalty yards against the Seahawks—often substantially so—than their team average. Only Green Bay and Dallas had worse penalty yardage than their average.
  • Though Dallas is technically among the team(s) which performed worse than its average against us, it’s worth noting that it was still very close to their average (+/- 7.7%). Compare to our other games, where opponents typically netted significantly less penalties/yardage than their average
  • In every game but one (GB), Seattle had more penalties than its opponents
  • Seattle had as many or more penalty yards than every single one of its opponents.
Regarding the last two bullet points, it’s obviously one thing to add up our penalties and compare them to our opponents’ fewer penalties, as those are something we theoretically have control over.

The part we can’t control, and the more inexplicable part, is the fact that our opponents are either constantly playing great games against us penalty-wise, or they are under less scrutiny.

One possible explanation is the opponent getting up for the game and being more disciplined against the reigning champs, but that is hard to square with the fact that the pressure/excitement often leads to MORE mistakes, not less, particularly among the OL and DL who can get jumpy against a “big” opponent.

See the charts below and let me know if there are any questions about methodology etc.

P.S. I’ve posted this on more than one site—but in all cases, it’s me doing the posting.

Quad_Graph_v3.png
 

drdiags

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I wonder how this looks if you discounted pre-snap penalties? Also by offense vs defense. Good job, just throwing these ideas out there.
 

Brahn

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We have led the league in Penalties the last 2 seasons.

We play aggressive vs all our opponents this will lead to more flags vs us than when they play vs less physical teams.

O-Line is good for 6 penalties a game with Okung good for at least 2 as he tries to get a jump on the snap to make his shoulder less of a hindrance.

We just got our first Illegal Contact of the season, committed by Simon if I recall correctly. It took till week 8 for the "Seahawks Rule" to hit us.

I like PBnJ Sandwiches

Bruce Irvin made up for lining up in the neutral zone (A Mistake seen in Middle School football) by getting 2 sacks.

Go Hawks!
 
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gulliver

gulliver

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Brahn":301y6fv4 said:
We have led the league in Penalties the last 2 seasons.

We play aggressive vs all our opponents this will lead to more flags vs us than when they play vs less physical teams.

O-Line is good for 6 penalties a game with Okung good for at least 2 as he tries to get a jump on the snap to make his shoulder less of a hindrance.

We just got our first Illegal Contact of the season, committed by Simon if I recall correctly. It took till week 8 for the "Seahawks Rule" to hit us.

I like PBnJ Sandwiches

Bruce Irvin made up for lining up in the neutral zone (A Mistake seen in Middle School football) by getting 2 sacks.

Go Hawks!
Fair enough. My larger point though is not about our penalties, but about how are opponents are getting far fewer than normal when they play us.
 

pehawk

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Great post, thank you for your work here.

Question; are offensive holding penalties down this year? Seems to me they are, and that would fit the leagues goal of more offense.
 
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gulliver

gulliver

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pehawk":3l04kkev said:
Great post, thank you for your work here.

Question; are offensive holding penalties down this year? Seems to me they are, and that would fit the leagues goal of more offense.
Looking at this site, offensive holding penalties per game are actually UP so far this year:

  • 2010: 2.307
  • 2011: 2.281
  • 2012: 2.404
  • 2013: 2.199
  • 2014: 2.570*
*Obviously 2014 is not yet complete...
 
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gulliver

gulliver

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dumbrabbit":13h52fit said:
Any chance this is normal for most reigning champs?
That is a whole 'nother research project. This took me about an hour to throw together, and I'd really have to get the last 10+ champs to test how we compare to the norm.

If there's any question, I believe anti-Seattle league bias--IF it exists at all--is directed at the champs generally, not at us for being the Seahawks.

But again, to test that, I'd have to call in sick a few days...
 

pehawk

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gulliver":3pb97zdn said:
pehawk":3pb97zdn said:
Great post, thank you for your work here.

Question; are offensive holding penalties down this year? Seems to me they are, and that would fit the leagues goal of more offense.
Looking at this site, offensive holding penalties so far are actually UP so far this year:

  • 2010: 2.307
  • 2011: 2.281
  • 2012: 2.404
  • 2013: 2.199
  • 2014: 2.570*

*Obviously 2014 is not yet complete...

Not surprisingly, I'm wrong.
 

nsport

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I've never really viewed the referees from the opponents point of view. My guess if we trolled their sites there'd be just as many "Eff the refs" posts as there are here. The stats don't lie, but I think it'd be much closer to reality if we remove the presnap penalties.

The LOB plays technically sound football and is rarely penalized for contact, holding, or PI. The DL has had only a few hands-to-the-face penalties - but no roughing or other personal fouls from what I can remember. The LB's don't do much holding, contact, or anything egregious. We do get the occasional OL hold or chop block. I don't recall any penalties from our backs, TE's or receivers.

That being said, the Seahawks simply need to control what they CAN control: Bonehead presnap penalties. Presnap has nothing to do with aggression and everything to do with preparedness and willingness to execute. If I see another unprovoked false start, encroachment, or lining up in the neutral zone, I'm going to hurl.

On the flip side, it does seem like the refs swallow their whistles for the other team. Maybe it's subconscious competitive balance?
 
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gulliver

gulliver

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nsport":334wbobk said:
I've never really viewed the referees from the opponents point of view. My guess if we trolled their sites there'd be just as many "Eff the refs" posts as there are here. The stats don't lie, but I think it'd be much closer to reality if we remove the presnap penalties.

The LOB plays technically sound football and is rarely penalized for contact, holding, or PI. The DL has had only a few hands-to-the-face penalties - but no roughing or other personal fouls from what I can remember. The LB's don't do much holding, contact, or anything egregious. We do get the occasional OL hold or chop block. I don't recall any penalties from our backs, TE's or receivers.

That being said, the Seahawks simply need to control what they CAN control: Bonehead presnap penalties. Presnap has nothing to do with aggression and everything to do with preparedness and willingness to execute. If I see another unprovoked false start, encroachment, or lining up in the neutral zone, I'm going to hurl.

On the flip side, it does seem like the refs swallow their whistles for the other team. Maybe it's subconscious competitive balance?
Totally hear where you're coming from, but again, people are focusing too much on how penalized we are.

The larger point here is not about us, but about other teams.

In short, teams are getting X penalties/yards before they play us, they're getting around 30% fewer when they play us, and then they're getting X again in their subsequent games.

Worst case scenario it's an anti-champs policy; best case scenario we're unlucky as all hell.
 

sc85sis

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This exact same thing happened to USC while Pete was there. The teams we played had fewer penalties when they played USC than vs. any other opponent. Pete was told by the conference that was statistically impossible, yet they couldn't deny the numbers and never provided a reason for it.

I don't know that I'm willing to assume a conspiracy, but I think it highly likely that refs have an unconscious bias against Pete's teams because of their tough style of play. They simply tend to assume the worst.
 

nsport

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gulliver":1deguqgd said:
Totally hear where you're coming from, but again, people are focusing too much on how penalized we are.

The larger point here is not about us, but about other teams.

In short, teams are getting X penalties/yards before they play us, they're getting around 30% fewer when they play us, and then they're getting X again in their subsequent games.

Worst case scenario it's an anti-champs policy; best case scenario we're unlucky as all hell.

I think both sides play into it.

a) Seahawks quit doing dumb things. Things will change for the better. Maybe the numbers straighten out. During that stretch, we have led the league in penalties. This affects the outcomes of everything else in the game.
b) Refs swallow whistles for the other team - could be ref influence, may be something else. Hard to say. The numbers do begin to tell a story. In fact, there may be some truth to the fact that the other team is playing a cleaner game against us, based on how aggressive we are and having more focus (which in turns means fewer penalties by opponents). Hard to say though. Your sample size is quite large, which makes the point about fewer penalties by opponents more solid. I think you posted 53 games - basically 3 years of mature Pete Carroll football - which could mean that our style of play influences the performance of the other team.
 

MizzouHawkGal

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gulliver":2str1vmp said:
nsport":2str1vmp said:
I've never really viewed the referees from the opponents point of view. My guess if we trolled their sites there'd be just as many "Eff the refs" posts as there are here. The stats don't lie, but I think it'd be much closer to reality if we remove the presnap penalties.

The LOB plays technically sound football and is rarely penalized for contact, holding, or PI. The DL has had only a few hands-to-the-face penalties - but no roughing or other personal fouls from what I can remember. The LB's don't do much holding, contact, or anything egregious. We do get the occasional OL hold or chop block. I don't recall any penalties from our backs, TE's or receivers.

That being said, the Seahawks simply need to control what they CAN control: Bonehead presnap penalties. Presnap has nothing to do with aggression and everything to do with preparedness and willingness to execute. If I see another unprovoked false start, encroachment, or lining up in the neutral zone, I'm going to hurl.

On the flip side, it does seem like the refs swallow their whistles for the other team. Maybe it's subconscious competitive balance?
Totally hear where you're coming from, but again, people are focusing too much on how penalized we are.

The larger point here is not about us, but about other teams.

In short, teams are getting X penalties/yards before they play us, they're getting around 30% fewer when they play us, and then they're getting X again in their subsequent games.

Worst case scenario it's an anti-champs policy; best case scenario we're unlucky as all hell.
I'd definitely like to see if the same has occurred for other Superbowl champions. Because I do believe that is a bigger factor then primarily anti-Seahawk bias. A kind of backdoor competitive balance deal either by serendipity or design.
 

Tokadub

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Nice work, I also looked into this a little bit after the Rams game and was shocked how many penalties they had in almost every other game compared to ours.

One thing that's interesting is that opposing teams penalty yardage is generally much more favorable for them when we are on the road, it's like the refs wouldn't dare to pull that kinda crap at CLink... The exception being Denver who the NFL seems determined to win them the Superbowl.

The Chargers really got screwed by the refs against Denver too.

Not that I mind, but it seems the 49ers are getting some bad calls go their way as well this season. Kinda seems like they want the NFC West to be a huge story "fight till the end" type of deal with the Hawks and 49ers trying to catch the Cardinals.
 

HawkAroundTheClock

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Good data!

The biggest red flag for me is the 3 teams averaging 8+ penalties per game getting 4, 3, and 2 against us. A team tightening the screws is one thing, but going from 2+ penalties per quarter to 1, .75, and .5 per quarter is a dramatic difference. All against a common opponent is a highly irregular coincidence.
 

pehawk

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I actually DONT appreciate your choice of charts. Waterfall charts are the new "rage" apparently, and they suck to build.
 
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gulliver

gulliver

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pehawk":2z034qq0 said:
I actually DONT appreciate your choice of charts. Waterfall charts are the new "rage" apparently, and they suck to build.
Well, if you're referring to my two top charts, you might be wrong there, too. :D

Waterfall charts are cumulative; mine are simply bar charts indicating where a team's penalties were in relation to their average ("0").
 

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