The Santa Clara 49ers implosion is imminent!

Scottemojo":227e9kpk said:

Those things are all true. I can look at all the anecdotal evidence that Harbaugh is hard to deal with, but in the end I can't get past how underhanded York acts, and he isn't going anywhere. When York speaks about what he wants for the Niners, it feels like the guy has a fundamentally flawed vision for what to do.

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As I just wrote about above, I think the "underhanded" stuff about York is waaaaay overplayed. I'm always suspicious when someone gets alternately cast as an evil genius or an idiot, depending on what the narrative for the story needs in that moment.

That said, ABSOLUTELY agreed that York should look around and probably just stop talking entirely. My hunch (this is just speculation) is that being a younger MBA-type from the Bay Area York is romanced by the Silicon Valley CEO-as-Brand-Representative model of leadership, but he 1) doesn't have anywhere close to the gravitas to pull it off and 2) doesn't realize that trying to run an NFL team this way is idiotic. He needs to get media training or stop talking, plain and simple. I can't remember the last time he has made a comment to the press and not tripped over himself into an unforced error that is used to hang him later ("winning with class", winning the Super Bowl every year, etc. -- kinda funny in that Harbaugh suffered from this same problem).

Scottemojo":227e9kpk said:

As far as 2014, it is the outlier in the 4 years, and when I look at the injuries to the O-line and the entire defense, 8-8 was a coaching miracle. That rested on Fangio, not Harbaugh, to be totally honest.

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Yeah, agreed that Fangio is the biggest loss (and holy crap they bungled that IMO, as they didn't need to lose Fangio).
Because of Fangio the defense didn't take a step back though, the offense did. For that reason I don't think 8-8 was a coaching miracle; it was an offensive-minded head coach whose offense grew less and less effective over the course of four years as the number of weapons he had at his disposal increased. Heck, with the magic of what Fangio did on that defense the 49ers should have been 10-6 or 11-5, not 8-8. The defense was the same. People talk about the O-Line but that really comes down to Anthony Davis being injured throughout the year, Kilgore being injured, and Boone holding out until the start of the season. That's not as good as in the past, but there were improvements over the past too: an actual backup HB to take some of the load off Gore (Hyde), a healthy Crabtree, a healthy Davis, and Stevie Johnson, a functional return game for the first time in four years, etc.

Scottemojo":227e9kpk said:

Still, there is this feeling that won't go away that there were two guys who wanted Harbaugh to fail more than anybody, and they were his bosses. Egos have been behind precipitous declines before, and this just feels like that. Maybe this year will prove me wrong, I am on record saying that a QB like Colin is good enough to win just based on the matchup problems he creates vs more than half the teams in the league, but 8 or 9 wins is not the baseline York is looking for.

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Yeah, absolutely agreed 8 or 9 wins isn't the baseline York is looking for. It's why he absolutely needs to stop talking. As for York and Baalke wanting Harbaugh to fail, yeah, there could be some truth to that. I guess I question if that's JUST egos though, or if it's a simpler answer? As a thought experiment, would the same thing have been true if P.C. was the 9ers coach and not Harbaugh. I don't think so. I think we could hold Baalke's ego constant, and maybe he'd be annoyed that P.C. was getting the credit and not him, but P.C. also doesn't have a long track record of being incredibly difficult to work with (his track record is actually the opposite).

Popeyejones":1vyhbj8z said:

Scottemojo":1vyhbj8z said:

References to the media aside (dismissing undesired news with a reference to a mysterious, faceless entity is so easy now, just say MEDIA), the whisper campaign to smear Harbaugh was real and came from the offices of York and Baalke. The used a handfull of credentialed reporters to leak news about Harbaugh losing locker rooms, stuff like that.

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You're simply repeating conjecture from Tim Kawakami and asserting it's real, though. If not, link?

And what did the "whisper smear campaign" that you're referencing actually consist of? Kawakami repeats all the time, and now it gets repeated, but never precisely specifies what he's talking about. What are you referencing?

There were two stories about the 9ers locker room last year:

1) That the team wasn't using one locker room, and part of the team was dressing before and after games in the old locker room while the rest was in a different locker room. This was true. The reports came out during the pre-season, from beat reporters who witnessed it while doing locker room interviews. There's no smear campaign, as it was verifiable fact.

2) Later in the season there was a report (I forget where it originated) that some players had grown tired of Harbaugh's schtick and had started to tune him out. Everyone from some of the players to York and Baalke denied the truth of it. To be fair it was probably true (Hawks fans of all people should know that Harbaugh's style isn't for everyone from Baldwin and Sherman, and Wickersham's VERY GOOD and very even profile of Harbaugh from Oct. makes it clear that it would be far from unreasonable for this to be true; see here: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11625 ... difficulty ). Were there are other "dissension in the locker room smear pieces" that I don't know about? To put too fine a point on it, the 9ers had one of these stories last year, and the Seahawks had several (e.g. Players don't think Wilson is black enough, the team was divided in half, Lynch refused to get on the team bus when Percy was cut). Just as those several stories and leaks aren't indicative of J.S. creating a whisper campaign against P.C., we're seriously supposed to believe that one story about the 9ers locker room that everyone circled the wagons against is the "whisper campaign?" I don't buy it.

Aside from that, the only stories that you might be referencing were the ones from after the 9ers were eliminated from the playoffs about how Harbaugh likely wasn't going to be back. That was true. If none of this is what you're referencing, what is it?


All that said, absolutely agreed that we're talking about individuals news folks, not "the media." I do think it's worth making a distinction between reporters and opinion writers, though.

The REPORTERS who cover the 49ers are: Matt Maoicco, Matt Barros, Cam Inman, Eric Branch, Grant Cohn, (and to a lesser degree) Kevin Lynch, Paul Gutierrez, and David Fucillo.

The SPORTS COLUMNISTS who sometimes write about the 49ers are: Tim Kawakami, Lowell Cohn, Ann Killion, Ray Ratto, whoever the guy linked above is (etc.)

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Negative news about the Niners gets more traction here than on a Niner board, but the rumors of discord were already floating. No I won't link them, but I can list a few. Before the 2014 season, the rumors about Baalke and York being upset with the way Aldon Smith was used in a game before going off to rehab seemed to have an inner office leak to them. Harbaugh not being extended, rumors that the Browns tried to trade for him (admittedly those has no source in the Niners org.), and stories about Harbaugh losing th elocker room started before a game had been played. THe way Tim Kawakami was proved right on so much showed an inside source.
The schism between Ballke/York and Jim was pretty much well in place before the season. I dismissed almost all that crap back then, with the exception of wondering why the hell Harbaugh had not been extended, but so much of it proved to be true that looking backwards many rumors had an inner office source, they had to. Yes, supposition. No I can't prove it. But I totally think the working environment in SF was toxic, and the two guys at the top created that atmosphere with either intentional or unintentional leaks.
THe Hawk rumors have plenty of basis too. I think how they smooth things over, money only does so much, with Lynch and the part of team that loves that guy remains to be seen. Players and coaches don't have to be besties to win titles, but the concept of team matters. TEAM dissolved from the top down last year in SF, whereas in Seattle there were locker room issues that were put to bed by a players meeting and a couple players hitting the pine. Point is, those rumors were mostly true. There were leaks that the front office had to button up. There were players leaking stuff. ANd given how the SB ended, I expect more of the same this year. How the team responds is to be seen.

Scottemojo":132lek60 said:

Before the 2014 season, the rumors about Baalke and York being upset with the way Aldon Smith was used in a game before going off to rehab seemed to have an inner office leak to them. Harbaugh not being extended, rumors that the Browns tried to trade for him (admittedly those has no source in the Niners org.), and stories about Harbaugh losing th elocker room started before a game had been played. THe way Tim Kawakami was proved right on so much showed an inside source.

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K. Thanks. I think we'll ultimately end up just agreeing to disagree a bit, but:

1) You're right, the losing some of the players thing came out before the season, not during it as I said. I still think the points stands though: I'd be shocked if there wasn't some truth to this in some corners of the locker room(s) and not others, as it has been true of Harbaugh everywhere he has gone.

2) Harbaugh not being extended wasn't a rumor. That story came from both Harbaugh and York speaking about it directly to the media, saying they agreed to table discussions until the next off-season (which at the time seemed pretty normal as coaches/players tend to re-sign before going into their last year (a la Pete Carroll), not before going into two years until their last year).

3) Agreed the Browns thing was coming from Lombardi trying to save his job (which is what I assume you're alluding to).
There was also the Texas thing with Harbaugh the year before, which clearly wasn't coming from the org either (why part of the "locker room" report was that the players were worried Harbaugh wasn't as "all in" as he claimed to be in the media, and was already thinking about returning to the college ranks, which he did).

4) Agreed the Aldon thing had to have come from inside the building somewhere, but that was the year before when the 9ers went to the NFCC. They were planning on undermining Harbaugh and tanking the season to get rid of them the year before too? I just don't buy it.

Long story short, I just don't believe that York and Baalke intentionally tanked their inaugural season in a new stadium by trying to undermine their coach so they could fire him. If they wanted to fire him, they could just fire him. Why not just fire him the year before rather than having a lost year to justify it? it's just batty.

Instead, I believe the timeline and cast of characters that's more generally accepted: York is young and out of his depth (not a mastermind manipulating the media), Baalke is a hard personality to work with (based on beat reporters), Harbaugh is a hard personality to work with (based on reports from every stop across his coaching career), and the wheels kind of came off the car last year. York, true to character, was dumb enough to publicly proclaim that he wanted to give Harbaugh a Super Bowl winning coach's salary (i.e. Harbaugh to win the Super Bowl), and after the 9ers were eliminated from playoff contention the decision was made to fire him.

I just have a lot of trouble believing stories in which people act against their best interests, and a story in which Baalke and York were secretly trying to tank a season because it makes firing their coach easier would be them acting against their best interests in both the short and long term. Isn't an easier lie just that they couldn't come to a contract agreement?

Popeye, one of the things that seems to be far different in Seattle than in SF is the player selection hierarchy. JS is Pete's employee, but Pete listened to him on Wilson after JS bombed on Whitehurst and Flynn stopped impressing Pete about 3 days after they signed him, which had to make JS look a bit silly too. Percy was Pete's mistake, but you will never hear JS hang that on Pete. Both have egos, but seem to keep them in check enough to move on from mistakes quickly. I can't imagine JS ever having one of the assistant coaches be a mole behind the back of Pete, yet it seems that Tomsula was just that for Baalke. That to me is just insane, yet it happened.

Seattle fans went through years of the front office and coaches fighting over players, disputes over Holmgren having to use players he didn't want were well known under Ruskell. If I had to stick a pin in a reason why I think Baalke and Harbaugh were in decline, that would be it. Ego made them act stupid, Jim wanted his players, Ballke convinced Jim wasn't using HIS players correctly. Toxic.

The diminishing returns on Harbaugh's offense were true, part of that goes to a refusal by both player and coach to use Colin to the best of his running talents at a time when the premier back in SF was losing his juice. No adequate replacement for Gore really hangs on Baalke. He tried, LMJ, Lattimore, etc... But that offense has to be started by running, and it just wasn't reliable anymore. I don't think Harbaugh and Roman were comfortable with improv offense, which is what using Colin to his best requires, but how many coaches are? I also have to wonder if Baalke had something to do with those decisions, he didn't go get a front page receiving group just so his QB could run for 1000 yards. Speculation, sure, but maybe a bit of all those went into Colin trying to be something he isn't, a pure pocket QB.

Harbaugh is far from a good coach in one area for sure. J. Martin should have never had a job in SF, Harbaugh wanted Marecic SO BAD, he clearly over values people he has worked with in the past that he knows buy into him as a coach. I have often said that Harbuagh was a better in game coach than Pete, but where Pete has shined is not letting Ego get in the way of success. His first offseason he picked up LenDale White but dropped his ass when Lendale acted entitled, skipped on Taylor Mays, and has a notable track record of NOT filling the Hawks with players he has coached in the past. He gave up on Percy when it threatened team chemistry, and IMO, was behind the campaign to extend Lynch this year, even though I am pretty sure he and Lynch are not really all that friendly. I'm not trying to shine Pete up, I really think that he has a cold hearted assassin quality when it comes to who he keeps or lets go, and his ability to put ego aside is part of that skill. That Compete stuff he spouts really does drive it all, it took me a couple of years to understand it wasn't a schtick. Making the team better within the constraints of the league really does drive all for Pete, and John, which is why they work so well together.

As far as your last post, no, York/Baalke did not tank the inaugural season. Not a chance. But they did so seeds of discord by being both leaky and transparent with their personal feelings about Harbaugh. Trust me, it isn't surprising, Harbaugh is an acidic man who could not get along with people and burned bridges even as a pro player. And when the writing was on the wall about the season, they got so transparent with the feelings about Harbaugh that it affected team effort. But having Tomsula in narc position all year really does make them look like underhanded sons a bitches and makes the formerly insufferable Harbaugh sympathetic. I mean, how big a douche do you have to be for Seattle fans to feel sorry for Harbaugh?

Firtst things first, thanks for the convo, Scott! :th2thumbs:

Scottemojo":l205t5ix said:

Popeye, one of the things that seems to be far different in Seattle than in SF is the player selection hierarchy. JS is Pete's employee, but Pete listened to him on Wilson after JS bombed on Whitehurst and Flynn stopped impressing Pete about 3 days after they signed him, which had to make JS look a bit silly too. Percy was Pete's mistake, but you will never hear JS hang that on Pete. Both have egos, but seem to keep them in check enough to move on from mistakes quickly. I can't imagine JS ever having one of the assistant coaches be a mole behind the back of Pete, yet it seems that Tomsula was just that for Baalke. That to me is just insane, yet it happened.

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Agreed about Seattle, but I just absolutely don't believe that Tomsula was a "mole" on the inside. It 1) doesn't fit anything that has ever been said about Tomsula over the course of his career (and there has been a lot), 2) it doesn't make much sense (they're all in the same building, why would they need a mole?!?!), and 3) it requires the evil genius and raging idiot combination of characteristics that I never buy (York and Baalke are the evil geniuses by agreeing to a handshake deal with Adam Gase to keep people off the Tomsula scent, but also proven as idiots with no direction who are in over their heads as proven by backout out of the handshake deal).

Scottemojo":l205t5ix said:

Seattle fans went through years of the front office and coaches fighting over players, disputes over Holmgren having to use players he didn't want were well known under Ruskell. If I had to stick a pin in a reason why I think Baalke and Harbaugh were in decline, that would be it. Ego made them act stupid, Jim wanted his players, Ballke convinced Jim wasn't using HIS players correctly. Toxic.

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Yeah, fully agreed on this one. This is what I think York was alluding to with wanting a "teacher"; there was an increasing annoyance about Harbaugh not playing draft picks or rotating them in (right or wrong), and an annoyance at increasingly paying Harbaugh's assistants each year (ending up in having the highest paid coaching staff in the league) rather than Harbaugh grooming coordinators and letting people go. There were also reports --even from Kawakami-- that Harbaugh was incredibly mercurial in his wants and needs (the backup quarterback carousel, wanting LaMichael James and then not playing him, etc.). We saw the same thing with Harbaugh's repeated insistence that you only mess up a QB's head by trying work on their mechanics, followed by Kaepernick dedicating the offseason to working on mechanics as soon as Harbaugh was gone (this might help, it might not, but the change in philosophy was clear).

Scottemojo":l205t5ix said:

The diminishing returns on Harbaugh's offense were true, part of that goes to a refusal by both player and coach to use Colin to the best of his running talents at a time when the premier back in SF was losing his juice. No adequate replacement for Gore really hangs on Baalke. He tried, LMJ, Lattimore, etc... But that offense has to be started by running, and it just wasn't reliable anymore. I don't think Harbaugh and Roman were comfortable with improv offense, which is what using Colin to his best requires, but how many coaches are? I also have to wonder if Baalke had something to do with those decisions, he didn't go get a front page receiving group just so his QB could run for 1000 yards. Speculation, sure, but maybe a bit of all those went into Colin trying to be something he isn't, a pure pocket QB.

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If you listened to Harbaugh before last season and listen to York and Baalke now though it's pretty clear that the change in offensive philosophy came from Harbaugh, and that York and Baalke want to "get back" to the thing you're asking for. Harbaugh's formula was getting less effective (teams adjusted to it), and the change he instituted got away from what they did well.

As for the replacement for Gore, LMJ was Harbaugh's guy (listen to Harbaugh gushing about LMJ after the draft(), and Lattimore was definitely a classic Baalke pick (using a 4th round comp on an injured flyer) that ended up not working. Hyde is the replacement, though, although we don't know who to credit that to.

Scottemojo":l205t5ix said:

Harbaugh is far from a good coach in one area for sure. J. Martin should have never had a job in SF, Harbaugh wanted Marecic SO BAD, he clearly over values people he has worked with in the past that he knows buy into him as a coach. I have often said that Harbuagh was a better in game coach than Pete, but where Pete has shined is not letting Ego get in the way of success. His first offseason he picked up LenDale White but dropped his ass when Lendale acted entitled, skipped on Taylor Mays, and has a notable track record of NOT filling the Hawks with players he has coached in the past. He gave up on Percy when it threatened team chemistry, and IMO, was behind the campaign to extend Lynch this year, even though I am pretty sure he and Lynch are not really all that friendly. I'm not trying to shine Pete up, I really think that he has a cold hearted assassin quality when it comes to who he keeps or lets go, and his ability to put ego aside is part of that skill. That Compete stuff he spouts really does drive it all, it took me a couple of years to understand it wasn't a schtick. Making the team better within the constraints of the league really does drive all for Pete, and John, which is why they work so well together.

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Absolutely agreed about both Harbaugh and Pete. Harbaugh is loyal to a fault (same story with Greg Roman; I believe the reports that Harbaugh was getting pressure to fire him), whereas Pete, to his credit, quickly rights mistakes and doesn't let loyalty override competition.

Scottemojo":l205t5ix said:

As far as your last post, no, York/Baalke did not tank the inaugural season. Not a chance. But they did so seeds of discord by being both leaky and transparent with their personal feelings about Harbaugh. Trust me, it isn't surprising, Harbaugh is an acidic man who could not get along with people and burned bridges even as a pro player. And when the writing was on the wall about the season, they got so transparent with the feelings about Harbaugh that it affected team effort. But having Tomsula in narc position all year really does make them look like underhanded sons a bitches and makes the formerly insufferable Harbaugh sympathetic. I mean, how big a douche do you have to be for Seattle fans to feel sorry for Harbaugh?

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Disagree about Hawks fans. If York had fired Baalke and not Harbaugh Hawks fans would still be talking about how insufferable and awful Harbaugh is, the same way that Hawks fans would quickly switch from talking about how incompetent Kaepernick is to how idiotic the 9ers are for cutting or trading Kaepernick if they did so. It's just the way that fandom works. Remember that according to Hawks fans the 9ers were idiots for signing Ricardo Lockette (good measurables, but not a football player), until he went back to the Hawks and then he was a decent role player again until the end of the Super Bowl.

As for tanking the season, that was too strongly worded on my part, but you can't undermine the coach without undermining the team, and I just don't see how it was in their best interest to undermine their own team. They didn't need to. If they wanted to get rid of Harbaugh they could have just said that they couldn't agree to an extension (which was true!) and that rather than having him serve out a lameduck year they decided to move on. It's a much simpler story, and they don't have to be evil geniuse and idiots at the same time for it to be true.

As for the leaks, just to say it though, I personally think too much is being read into them entirely, but if there is a patient zero for them, I think Wickersham basically nailed it: Harbaugh has ALWAYS motivated with "us against the world" stuff. Wickersham and others basically suggested that it was Harbaugh who was doing it; the only rumor that reflects poorly on the 9ers that Kawakami never repeated or cooked up. And if Tim Kawakami actually did have a source inside the 9ers organization (I don't think he does, he's been doing the same schtick with the Raiders and Warriors for decades), you only have to look to who his guest was in his inaugural podcast: It was Jim Harbaugh. Everyone thought Harbaugh hated Kawakami, and as soon as Harbaugh was fired they were suddenly chummy. I still think Kawakami is doing what he has been doing since I was a kid in the 90s (just throwing stuff against the wall; remember that ALSO according to him a year ago Baalke and Harbaugh had patched up their relationship and the 9ers were going to win the Super Bowl), but I admit that I did raise an eye at that.

To be clear, I'm not trying to absolve York or Baalke in any of this, I just think they're deserving of shouldering SOME OF the blame rather than all of the blame.

To be honest, I think they have 1) poorly handled (that's important, and can't be discounted) 2) an unwinnable situation (which gets left out, IMO) and have also been suffering some bad luck that has been unfairly attributed to them (e.g. Willis and Borland retiring out of nowhere, and that the long standing plan to move on from Gore, Iupati, Crabtree and likely Justin Smith happened to end up happening while all this other stuff was happening). You can't discount #1, but I think ignoring #2 and #3 to pile on to #1 isn't accurate.

If I remember correctly, most Hawks fans' comments about Harbaugh were directed at his sideline antics. Something I'll miss just as much as the anxiety that came before SEA vs SF games.

^^^^ Part of it for sure, but how quickly we forget "above reproach" and how awful he was to be around as evidenced by Sherman and Baldwin.

Don't have time to dig it up, but there was a thread here awhile back about who the most contemptible person with the 9ers was. Harbaugh was the far and away winner as I recall, with Kaepernick and Crabtree tailing (must have been after the NFCC with the Richard Sherman post-game rants, which at the time Hawks fans were blaming on Crabtree).

The true criminal and victim here is Kaep.

Whatever has helped cause his demise from the player he was leading his team to the Super Bowl to where he was the last two years (I know he was one play away from a Super Bowl, but also had 3 turnovers in the 4th quarter of that game) is the answer to where the 9ers future lies.

rideaducati":2bz4rb3i said:

Writers these days get paid for their opinions. Saying that you don't know what is going to happen would make for a REALLY boring article and make your posts quite boring too Marv. Nobody KNOWS what is going to happen, we're all just guessing, but the people guessing that the niners will get worse before they get better have some ammunition to go along with their arguments. The "straw man" articles would claim that there will be no fall off and the niners will be better this season. "Straw man" articles are written with nothing factual to back their articles. There IS evidence that the niners will probably be worse in the next few seasons than they were in their last few seasons.

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Missing my point.

Of course they are going to write them . That's why I said more power to them. Its still beating a dead horse at this point, but it's to be expected.

The straw man thing is pointed directly at the media reaction to York saying he wanted to return to their core strengths and Tomsula saying Reggie Bush was an every down back.

Its OBVIOUS if you look at the quotes that York wasn't talking about returning to the pre-Harbaugh 49ers and Tomsula wasn't talking about giving Reggie Bush 300 carries, yet those are the "straw men" that were propped up all over the media to make the "look at these moronic people" points when in fact that was never the point they were making.

Just more media drivel for the 24 hour news cycle. There are enough things York has done that can be called into question. You don't need to start making stuff up too.

Popeyejones":3bhdesrl said:

^^^^ Part of it for sure, but how quickly we forget "above reproach" and how awful he was to be around as evidenced by Sherman and Baldwin.

Don't have time to dig it up, but there was a thread here awhile back about who the most contemptible person with the 9ers was. Harbaugh was the far and away winner as I recall, with Kaepernick and Crabtree tailing (must have been after the NFCC with the Richard Sherman post-game rants, which at the time Hawks fans were blaming on Crabtree).

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Well, again you're talking about knocks on his character / demeanor, which I'm fine with. The guy coached his ass off though.

Laloosh":8d5r83un said:

Popeyejones":8d5r83un said:

^^^^ Part of it for sure, but how quickly we forget "above reproach" and how awful he was to be around as evidenced by Sherman and Baldwin.

Don't have time to dig it up, but there was a thread here awhile back about who the most contemptible person with the 9ers was. Harbaugh was the far and away winner as I recall, with Kaepernick and Crabtree tailing (must have been after the NFCC with the Richard Sherman post-game rants, which at the time Hawks fans were blaming on Crabtree).

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Well, again you're talking about knocks on his character / demeanor, which I'm fine with. The guy coached his ass off though.

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For sure, but I think we're talking past each other a little bit. My point was that for many, many Hawks fans Harbaugh was attributed as the primary figure that made the 9ers so clearly despicable, until he was gone, at which point Baalke and York stepped in as the villains who make the 9ers so clearly despicable.

The only thing that will make the 9ers not have a figurehead of despicable awfulness for many Hawks fans is for them to be a bad team that poses no threat to the Seahawks. It's the way fandom works. Just as an example, if the 9ers suck for the next few years and the Cardinals take control of the division with the Seahawks getting stuck competing for the wild card, everyone here will turn on Ringless and Bruce Arians will start to represent everything that's immoral and awful. It's just the way that fandom works.

Heck, even over the course of this off-season among Hawks fans we've seen York and Baalke convert from villains to tragic-comic figures (they're the same people, the only difference being that unlike in February, it's increasingly seeming to be clear that the 9ers will pose no threat to the Seahawks at all).

Popeyejones":3cgc97cd said:

Laloosh":3cgc97cd said:

Popeyejones":3cgc97cd said:

^^^^ Part of it for sure, but how quickly we forget "above reproach" and how awful he was to be around as evidenced by Sherman and Baldwin.

Don't have time to dig it up, but there was a thread here awhile back about who the most contemptible person with the 9ers was. Harbaugh was the far and away winner as I recall, with Kaepernick and Crabtree tailing (must have been after the NFCC with the Richard Sherman post-game rants, which at the time Hawks fans were blaming on Crabtree).

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Well, again you're talking about knocks on his character / demeanor, which I'm fine with. The guy coached his ass off though.

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For sure, but I think we're talking past each other a little bit. My point was that for many, many Hawks fans Harbaugh was attributed as the primary figure that made the 9ers so clearly despicable, until he was gone, at which point Baalke and York stepped in as the villains who make the 9ers so clearly despicable.

The only thing that will make the 9ers not have a figurehead of despicable awfulness for many Hawks fans is for them to be a bad team that poses no threat to the Seahawks. It's the way fandom works. Just as an example, if the 9ers suck for the next few years and the Cardinals take control of the division with the Seahawks getting stuck competing for the wild card, everyone here will turn on Ringless and Bruce Arians will start to represent everything that's immoral and awful. It's just the way that fandom works.

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Fair points on both fronts. Though I think Ringless and Arians have already begun to take heat for making statements that were premature at best and will likely wind up being wishful thinking.

^^^^ Yeah, agreed, but anyone only cares about their possible wishful thinking because the Cardinals almost won the division last year. If the Cardinals sucked, Bruce Arians would be Jeff Fisher, and Ringless would be RedAlice (maybe a little blowhardish, but ultimately totally harmless...like Jim Tomsula, and suddenly Marvin and I :lol: ).

Popeyejones":3iszp1xj said:

^^^^ Yeah, agreed, but anyone only cares about their possible wishful thinking because the Cardinals almost won the division last year. If the Cardinals sucked, Bruce Arians would be Jeff Fisher, and Ringless would be RedAlice (maybe a little blowhardish, but ultimately totally harmless...like Jim Tomsula, and suddenly Marvin and I :lol: ).

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This is true... I haven't hated the curly horned goats in a decade. I look forward to hating them again some day. Even when they were good, there weren't any fans to banter with.

When the cardinals are good, it must be baseball season.

When the niners suck, their fans still spout off as if it were still the 80's, so hating the niners will never go away even though they are, for the most part, harmless.

Bump :snack:

Maybe the worst calendar year in Sports history?

ringless":3sxp25t0 said:

Bump :snack:

Maybe the worst calendar year in Sports history?

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For your, consideration, I offer you Seattle in 2008:

- Seahawks finish 4-12, their worst record since the Tom Flores era. Jim Mora and Timmay drafted Aaron Curry with the resultingly high draft pick.
- Mariners finished 61-101, the first $100 million payroll team to lose 100 games in a season. To add insult to injury, they swept the Athletics to end the season, giving the Nationals Stephen Strasburg.
-The Sonics finished 20-62 in their final season in Seattle (Kevin Durant's rookie season, his only one in Seattle), the worst record in the Western Conference. Clay *@&%* Bennett and David #$%^& Stern ripped them away to Oklahoma City in the offseason.

I will never forget how miserable that year was. :cussing:

ringless":kkkz2fmf said:

Bump :snack:

Maybe the worst calendar year in Sports history?

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How's Adrian Peterson looking down there in AZ, Ringless?

Maulbert":1nwsgb9e said:

ringless":1nwsgb9e said:

Bump :snack:

Maybe the worst calendar year in Sports history?

Click to expand...

For your, consideration, I offer you Seattle in 2008:

- Seahawks finish 4-12, their worst record since the Tom Flores era. Jim Mora and Timmay drafted Aaron Curry with the resultingly high draft pick.
- Mariners finished 61-101, the first $100 million payroll team to lose 100 games in a season. To add insult to injury, they swept the Athletics to end the season, giving the Nationals Stephen Strasburg.
-The Sonics finished 20-62 in their final season in Seattle (Kevin Durant's rookie season, his only one in Seattle), the worst record in the Western Conference. Clay *@&%* Bennett and David #$%^& Stern ripped them away to Oklahoma City in the offseason.

I will never forget how miserable that year was. :cussing:

Click to expand...

Yeah 2008 SUCKED!

That's why you have to cherish the rare championships when they happen.

ringless":1edlklku said:

Bump :snack:

Maybe the worst calendar year in Sports history?

Click to expand...

Their off-season is sucking, but It's way to early to give up the "worst calendar year" title. We has lots and lotsa time to goes for that.

As to Niners - spent time last weekend with my little 11 year old Niner fan (the son of one of my friends). In addition to wanting to know when our Fantasy Football draft is going to be - UM! It's June. I haven't actually thought about that. I said, probably August, let's watch a couple pre-season games first.

Then he goes - So, tell me honest, are the 49ers going to suck this year? Now. There really is no way to tell an adorable little 11 year old face that: Yes, I think your team is going to suck this year.

So, I said: You know, sometimes when a team gets a new coach, it's a good thing and the team plays better.
Him: I love Harbaugh. I'm going to root for Michigan. I don't think that was good.
Me: Well, you still have a good Defense. I think you will still have that.
Him: Yeah. I think we could have that.


If the 11 year old fans are concerned, well.