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LeBron or Jordan?

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LeBron or Jordan?
Tue May 01, 2018 6:50 pm
  • I expect to be pretty one sided because of the championships but damn LeBron has done a lot despite not always having a ton of help. I feel like I was to young to fully appreciate MJ. Who you got?
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Tue May 01, 2018 8:01 pm
  • Jordan was a beast, but the two eras are completely different.

    If you put Lebron back in Jordan's era with his speed, size and athleticism, nobody would have been able to stop him.

    If Im building a team and could choose from both of these guys in their prime, Lebron gets my vote. He is a freak athlete.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Wed May 02, 2018 8:36 am
  • I'm a child of the 80's, so it's hard for me to say this, it's Lebron.

    Jordan took basketball into the new age and made it the global juggernaut that it is. But Lebron changed the ACTUAL game of basketball, a freak of nature that can play all five positions, dominate at any one of them, and has done it for what.............15 years now?

    Jordan never had that longevity of dominance.

    Scary part is Lebron's not even close to done, he can play for another 4-5 years.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Wed May 02, 2018 9:44 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:I'm a child of the 80's, so it's hard for me to say this, it's Lebron.

    Jordan took basketball into the new age and made it the global juggernaut that it is. But Lebron changed the ACTUAL game of basketball, a freak of nature that can play all five positions, dominate at any one of them, and has done it for what.............15 years now?

    Jordan never had that longevity of dominance.

    Scary part is Lebron's not even close to done, he can play for another 4-5 years.


    Not saying this sways the argument either way, but the era's of basketball should be included here. the physical era of the 80s and 90s, with 7 foot plus big men patrolling the paint, have been replaced by power forwards running the diagonals and point guards turning into shooting guards. Much of this was because of Lebron (he's not the only big man doing this) and has helped him excel. But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron. It was a league of bruisers and brutes, post ups and pick and rolls. Jordan played beyond the arc, in the paint and above the rim. Once he beat the Pistons, that era of basketball was over. Lebron would certainly be a force in the Jordan-era, but he's not really had to deal with a set up (including rules) that challenge him.

    I never really see anyone post the opposite: how would Jordan do in this era?

    Lebron has really changed the way I thought of him the last 2-3 years. He's become "that guy" instead of part of a group of guys. I still think Jordan walks into this iteration of the NBA and dominates offensively, much in the way Kobe was, and his defensive presence makes him an easy MVP candidate. I can't say the same about Lebron in the 90s.

    I guess they are 1a and 1b. But I think time has forgot what Jordan really was, night in and night out, and how challenged he was by the league. I think i'd take that over Lebron, but its not automatic anymore.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Wed May 02, 2018 10:36 am
  • Lebron is not only a scorer but also distributes the ball like a PG, where Jordan was mainly a pure shooter.

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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Wed May 02, 2018 12:42 pm
  • Lebron is a more dominant player but who would I rather have on my team? I'll take Jordan. I'd take Kobe, Duncan, and a few others over LeBron.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Wed May 02, 2018 10:46 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:I'm a child of the 80's, so it's hard for me to say this, it's Lebron.

    Jordan took basketball into the new age and made it the global juggernaut that it is. But Lebron changed the ACTUAL game of basketball, a freak of nature that can play all five positions, dominate at any one of them, and has done it for what.............15 years now?

    Jordan never had that longevity of dominance.

    Scary part is Lebron's not even close to done, he can play for another 4-5 years.


    Not saying this sways the argument either way, but the era's of basketball should be included here. the physical era of the 80s and 90s, with 7 foot plus big men patrolling the paint, have been replaced by power forwards running the diagonals and point guards turning into shooting guards. Much of this was because of Lebron (he's not the only big man doing this) and has helped him excel. But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron. It was a league of bruisers and brutes, post ups and pick and rolls. Jordan played beyond the arc, in the paint and above the rim. Once he beat the Pistons, that era of basketball was over. Lebron would certainly be a force in the Jordan-era, but he's not really had to deal with a set up (including rules) that challenge him.

    I never really see anyone post the opposite: how would Jordan do in this era?

    Lebron has really changed the way I thought of him the last 2-3 years. He's become "that guy" instead of part of a group of guys. I still think Jordan walks into this iteration of the NBA and dominates offensively, much in the way Kobe was, and his defensive presence makes him an easy MVP candidate. I can't say the same about Lebron in the 90s.

    I guess they are 1a and 1b. But I think time has forgot what Jordan really was, night in and night out, and how challenged he was by the league. I think i'd take that over Lebron, but its not automatic anymore.


    Have watched both but no need to waste my time..The era then is a lot different and I know LJ would
    not do what you see today back then period.
    Jordan on other hand under todays easy rules,spacing,no defense?The tongue would be out all game
    his team would win championships as he demands defense and exexcution hence the bold above.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Thu May 03, 2018 8:11 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron.


    That isn't really true at all. The game is completely different than when Jordan played.

    Jordan shot relatively few threes. For his career, he averaged fewer than two per game, even if we throw out the poor seasons with the Wizards. 265 guys shot more threes this year per game than Jordan's career average with the Bulls, and 132 players shot more threes per game this year than Jordan's highest season. 150 guys made threes at a higher percentage than Jordan.

    The road to the current state of the NBA, in my opinion, was started by Gregg Popovich. He was the one that showed the league how valuable corner threes are. Corner threes are almost two feet closer than other threes, yet worth the same amount of points. Most coaches eventually realized that long twos are the worst shot in basketball. Why take an 18-20 foot jumper, when you can step back a few feet and get 50% more points for a make? This led to shot charts like this being the norm:

    Image

    That is way different than the Jordan-era of the NBA. That isn't to say that Jordan couldn't play in the current era; obviously he could. However, the league now isn't the one that Jordan created.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Thu May 03, 2018 8:17 am
  • I think the main factor between the two time periods is the athletes themselves. Jordan never faced a 6'9" 260lb guy that had a sweet jumper, could dunk over anyone, had the abilities to play PG, and the stamina of a racehorse.

    Compare the NFL of today to the NFL of the 80's, and I would bet that most good teams today would wipe the floors with the good teams from back then. Guys are just bigger, stronger, faster and train year round as opposed to a portion of a year.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Thu May 03, 2018 8:24 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:I'm a child of the 80's, so it's hard for me to say this, it's Lebron.

    Jordan took basketball into the new age and made it the global juggernaut that it is. But Lebron changed the ACTUAL game of basketball, a freak of nature that can play all five positions, dominate at any one of them, and has done it for what.............15 years now?

    Jordan never had that longevity of dominance.

    Scary part is Lebron's not even close to done, he can play for another 4-5 years.


    Not saying this sways the argument either way, but the era's of basketball should be included here. the physical era of the 80s and 90s, with 7 foot plus big men patrolling the paint, have been replaced by power forwards running the diagonals and point guards turning into shooting guards. Much of this was because of Lebron (he's not the only big man doing this) and has helped him excel. But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron. It was a league of bruisers and brutes, post ups and pick and rolls. Jordan played beyond the arc, in the paint and above the rim. Once he beat the Pistons, that era of basketball was over. Lebron would certainly be a force in the Jordan-era, but he's not really had to deal with a set up (including rules) that challenge him.

    I never really see anyone post the opposite: how would Jordan do in this era?

    Lebron has really changed the way I thought of him the last 2-3 years. He's become "that guy" instead of part of a group of guys. I still think Jordan walks into this iteration of the NBA and dominates offensively, much in the way Kobe was, and his defensive presence makes him an easy MVP candidate. I can't say the same about Lebron in the 90s.

    I guess they are 1a and 1b. But I think time has forgot what Jordan really was, night in and night out, and how challenged he was by the league. I think i'd take that over Lebron, but its not automatic anymore.


    Couple good points.

    Jordan definitely played in a more physical time of the league, but make no mistake he as well as other big stars got a LOT of calls, just as Lebron and the stars of today do.

    I'd also say that Lebron is one of the most physically dominant players in the game, so I have no doubt he'd do just fine playing in Jordan's time of having to work harder and be tougher/more physical. Dude could play TE in the NFL if he wanted to, he's such a physical freak.

    IMO you nailed the more fair comparison Si, to me it's always been Kobe vs Jordan, same style and physical build. IMO there is no comparison for Lebron for style and physical makeup.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Thu May 03, 2018 8:39 am
  • I've been beating the LeBron drum for almost 10 years. Nobody in NBA history has been able to move mass the way LeBron does, plus he's got the skills and coordination to match just about any player in the league. I have no doubt in my mind that LeBron would have had a very successful career playing in a more physical era.

    I could give a damn about Finals wins. It's not LeBron's fault he's playing against much better opponents and coaches in an era that has seen much better competition throughout the league. Finals wins, like other sports, are a reflection of the team's ability, not one GOAT level player.

    LeBron's stats will speak for themselves when it's all said and done.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Thu May 03, 2018 10:26 am
  • Jeremy517 wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron.


    That isn't really true at all. The game is completely different than when Jordan played.

    Jordan shot relatively few threes. For his career, he averaged fewer than two per game, even if we throw out the poor seasons with the Wizards. 265 guys shot more threes this year per game than Jordan's career average with the Bulls, and 132 players shot more threes per game this year than Jordan's highest season. 150 guys made threes at a higher percentage than Jordan.

    The road to the current state of the NBA, in my opinion, was started by Gregg Popovich. He was the one that showed the league how valuable corner threes are. Corner threes are almost two feet closer than other threes, yet worth the same amount of points. Most coaches eventually realized that long twos are the worst shot in basketball. Why take an 18-20 foot jumper, when you can step back a few feet and get 50% more points for a make? This led to shot charts like this being the norm:

    Image

    That is way different than the Jordan-era of the NBA. That isn't to say that Jordan couldn't play in the current era; obviously he could. However, the league now isn't the one that Jordan created.



    Think maybe i didn't state that correctly. But excellent point on Pop

    Jordan dismantled the physical, post up and pick and roll play of the 80s and 90s, allowing for the free form and fast paced style you see today.

    It wasn't that Jordan played in an era like today, but he broke down a league that was focused on team D and limited scoring. He shifted the landscape, even if he never got to walk around in the yard.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Thu May 03, 2018 10:28 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:I'm a child of the 80's, so it's hard for me to say this, it's Lebron.

    Jordan took basketball into the new age and made it the global juggernaut that it is. But Lebron changed the ACTUAL game of basketball, a freak of nature that can play all five positions, dominate at any one of them, and has done it for what.............15 years now?

    Jordan never had that longevity of dominance.

    Scary part is Lebron's not even close to done, he can play for another 4-5 years.


    Not saying this sways the argument either way, but the era's of basketball should be included here. the physical era of the 80s and 90s, with 7 foot plus big men patrolling the paint, have been replaced by power forwards running the diagonals and point guards turning into shooting guards. Much of this was because of Lebron (he's not the only big man doing this) and has helped him excel. But Lebron is playing in the league that Jordan created, not Lebron. It was a league of bruisers and brutes, post ups and pick and rolls. Jordan played beyond the arc, in the paint and above the rim. Once he beat the Pistons, that era of basketball was over. Lebron would certainly be a force in the Jordan-era, but he's not really had to deal with a set up (including rules) that challenge him.

    I never really see anyone post the opposite: how would Jordan do in this era?

    Lebron has really changed the way I thought of him the last 2-3 years. He's become "that guy" instead of part of a group of guys. I still think Jordan walks into this iteration of the NBA and dominates offensively, much in the way Kobe was, and his defensive presence makes him an easy MVP candidate. I can't say the same about Lebron in the 90s.

    I guess they are 1a and 1b. But I think time has forgot what Jordan really was, night in and night out, and how challenged he was by the league. I think i'd take that over Lebron, but its not automatic anymore.


    Couple good points.

    Jordan definitely played in a more physical time of the league, but make no mistake he as well as other big stars got a LOT of calls, just as Lebron and the stars of today do.

    I'd also say that Lebron is one of the most physically dominant players in the game, so I have no doubt he'd do just fine playing in Jordan's time of having to work harder and be tougher/more physical. Dude could play TE in the NFL if he wanted to, he's such a physical freak.

    IMO you nailed the more fair comparison Si, to me it's always been Kobe vs Jordan, same style and physical build. IMO there is no comparison for Lebron for style and physical makeup.


    Lebron's physical dominance is unquestioned. But again, I don't think he dominates Jordan era the way he does now.

    However.. that doesnt mean he's not playing at Jordan's level either.

    Its fun how this conversation has changed. Lebron has done an excellent job since his return to Cleveland re-forming the narrative around his competitiveness.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Thu May 03, 2018 2:41 pm
  • 2_0_6 wrote:I think the main factor between the two time periods is the athletes themselves. Jordan never faced a 6'9" 260lb guy that had a sweet jumper, could dunk over anyone, had the abilities to play PG, and the stamina of a racehorse.

    Compare the NFL of today to the NFL of the 80's, and I would bet that most good teams today would wipe the floors with the good teams from back then. Guys are just bigger, stronger, faster and train year round as opposed to a portion of a year.

    The famous crutch words come out...The great players of all sports in the 60,70,80-90's ect would
    all still be great today with that same conditioning there is no doubt in my mind.
    Some might even be greater..Wilt Chamberlain comes to mind with today's technology(My god)

    The flip side if we take Lebron to the 80's-90's with the extreme hard play rules and only a portion
    of training instead of year round.I don't see him being much better than Karl Malone/James Worthy
    which they are all about the same size.

    I'm not a Lebron hater and yeah he is the best today.The media has been trying to replace
    Jordan since he left but the thing is nobody will.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Thu May 03, 2018 5:37 pm
  • Two completely different players. MJ's best comparison was Kobe. They were quite similar, but with Jordan being much better. LeBron is the more complete player and physically dominant players. I'd probably take LeBron but I dind't watch Jordan until his late years. LeBron gets a lot of hate, but the guy could go down as the greatest player to play in the NBA.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 12:02 am
  • I'm willing to admit that Lebron is the 2nd best player of all time. But no way is he better than Jordan, who had an unparalleled killer instinct and will to win.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 2:06 am
  • Man this thing is so over analyzed but I will take a bite here.

    First of all Lebron gets massively blamed UNFAIRLY for some of those losses. In no particular order these are just some of the Finals losses I believe Lebron gets terribly unfair blame for. It's just absurd to blame him for these IMO. These are not in order. Just I think he takes unfair blame for these. I have listed the ones I think he is unfairly blamed for.

    1) 1st Finals loss - A young Cleveland team plays the Spurs who were like 10 deep at least. Cleveland had what Lebron and Verajao? How was he going to beat a 10 deep team with that? I'm calling it right now. NOT HIS FAULT.

    2) 2nd Finals loss - Kevin Love an Kyrie Irving both get hurt. He enters the Finals with 1 of the Big 3. Lebron plays out of his mind and puts up insane #'s. But he falls short and they lose. What do you want the guy to do here and how is that loss his fault? I'm calling this one too. NOT HIS FAULT.

    3) 3rd Finals loss - Kevin Durant joins a 73 win team who already won the Championship. They have an unprecedented and unheard of BIG 4. It's like the starting roster for the Olympic team. Cleveland gets to the Finals and loses to them. Wow big surprise huh? NOT HIS FAULT.

    I can think of at least 3 of these Finals loses that absolutely were not his fault.

    Now you move on to Jordan. Yes he was great. But he was also lucky too. People forget that it was a different era and the West in those years was much weaker. It was the exact opposite. Things kind of go in cycles. But if you look at in that time period if you came out of the East you would win. Because the West was much weaker and had a bunch of fundamentally flawed teams. If you beat the Knicks and the Pacers and Pistons by the time you got to the Finals and played the West you would win.

    1) 1st Championship - The played an aging Lakers team. The Lakers were great in the 80's. But this was the 90's. They were slowing down and they lost. So they beat a flawed team IMO.

    3) 3rd Championship - They beat Barkley and the Phoenix Suns. Can anybody actually even list the important players on that team? No they can't. Barkley had a cast of characters that he dragged into the Finals and lost. He was a Big 1 vs. a Big 3. What do you want the guy to do? He gets unfairly blamed for that BTW too. Basketball is team game and the Bulls were far better.

    5) 5th Championship - They play the Utah Jazz. Now look at this team. It's Malone and Stockton and not much supporting cast. That's a Big 1 1/2. Given that Stockton gives you absolutely nothing on defense and is even a liability. So a Big 1 1/2 vs. a Big 3. Who was going to win that? They played a flawed team who was good enough to get through the West. That's all.

    6) 6th Championship. See #5 above. Same as above...^^^^^^^. See above. Rinse and repeat.

    IMO they played very flawed teams. There was no dynasty coming out of the other side. The Bulls benefited from this HUGELY I think. They would win a Championship or 2. But no way 6 if they faced dynasties coming out of the other side. They didn't face the 80's Lakers. That would have been a different story. The Bulls would win some but I would guess less than the total they got. There was a vacuum of awesome teams coming out of the West in their time period and their run. That's not really the Bulls fault. But they benefited from it in an enormous way. Don't doubt that.

    I look at it like this. If they played 1 on 1 I think Lebron would win. He is 6'8" 250 lbs. and as fast and quick as anybody to ever to play the game. Plus he is strong and powerful and can jump out of the gym. Now Jordan was 6'6" 216 lbs. His speed, quickness, stop, start and cutting ability would give Lebron trouble and his shooting ability is awesome. But I think Lebron's strength, power, size, bulk and long arms would give Jordan big problems. I honestly think Lebron would win. Basketball is not a 1 on 1 game. But this comparison is something to consider.

    Further I think there is no doubt that Lebron is the better rebounder and passer. Can anybody really even argue that? Jordan was a great scorer. They were both all world defensive players. So maybe that is even. But Lebron can play 1 - 4 positions on offense and defense at an All Star level. Can Jordan in his prime do that? No way. He mostly would play 1 - 2. Pippen was at 3.

    I honestly think Lebron is probably better. He gets hugely unfairly blamed for some Finals losses which clearly were not his fault. Jordan benefited hugely from facing some very flawed teams coming out of the West in his era. He also had a Big 3 before Big 3 was in style and he had coach Phil Jackson. So he really had a lot of advantages. The media needs a narrative and a hero and all time greats because they like to write about it. But upon further examination and break down I think it's more complicated. I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great. He was and will always be considered that. It's just you have look at everything and the circumstances of who had and who he faced. You also have to look at some of the bad breaks Lebron has had which are no fault of his own. I just think you have look at the whole picture.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 5:33 am
  • IndyHawk wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:I think the main factor between the two time periods is the athletes themselves. Jordan never faced a 6'9" 260lb guy that had a sweet jumper, could dunk over anyone, had the abilities to play PG, and the stamina of a racehorse.

    Compare the NFL of today to the NFL of the 80's, and I would bet that most good teams today would wipe the floors with the good teams from back then. Guys are just bigger, stronger, faster and train year round as opposed to a portion of a year.

    The famous crutch words come out....



    That's because its true.

    Name a player from any past era that had the ball skills, size, strength, shot making ability who also gets a ton of assists per game.

    GO ahead Ill wait.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 6:19 am
  • You're only strengthening the argument 2_0_6...

    (also.. NBA players of the 80s and 90s only trained part time?)

    Lebron's era is set up for him to dominate. He's done a tremendous job in doing so. The debate is whether he'd be able to transition all those "ball skills" (which is essentially him blowing by a small guard into the paint where he meets power forwards and centers who are barely his size.. then passes) into an era of 7 foot guards, 6'11 power forwards defensive players patrolling every position. It's just a different league. defense is secondary in today's NBA, so stats flatter to deceive.

    It's a fun argument when perspective is kept. There are enough variables that can't be truly defined to keep it going.

    But again, Lebron's play the last 3 years is what's made this a debate again. He is dominating this league for really the first time. It's great to see. I look forward to watching the Cavs get pulled apart by the Rockets or Warriors while Lebron does everything he can to keep it close
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 7:10 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:You're only strengthening the argument 2_0_6...



    Maybe in your mind. :irishdrinkers:

    Lebron has been dominating and taking over games for years. Numbers don't lie.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 7:13 am
  • 2_0_6 wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:You're only strengthening the argument 2_0_6...



    Maybe in your mind. :irishdrinkers:

    Lebron has been dominating and taking over games for years. Numbers don't lie.


    3 years... he has been taking over and dominating games on his for 3 years.

    numbers dont lie... but they rarely tell the entire story
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 7:23 am
  • So his 70+ triple doubles and 31k+ points all in 3 years?

    Damn he's better than I thought.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 8:21 am
  • 2_0_6 wrote:So his 70+ triple doubles and 31k+ points all in 3 years?

    Damn he's better than I thought.


    doubt he could be better than you think...
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 8:30 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:So his 70+ triple doubles and 31k+ points all in 3 years?

    Damn he's better than I thought.


    doubt he could be better than you think...



    I'm not a Lebron fan, not a Cavs fan, and when the Sonics left I became very bitter towards the NBA as a whole, but I respect his game. My family had season tickets from 86 all the way up through the last year in Seattle, and I was able to see Jordan many of times, and even got to witness him ripping my heart out in 1996.


    There will always be the Lebron haters, but in the end when his career is over the numbers wont lie.



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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 8:41 am
  • You continue to site the numbers. Noone has disputed them. The debate, again, is how the era's the two players have helped them be the players they were, and how either would do if playing in the other's era. Lebron is playing a free flowing, offense driven league. Jordan did not.

    It's also ridiculously disingenuous to suggest you're not a fan of LeBron, site a "stat" regarding first round eliminations and then completely ignore championships (and finals losses).

    I love how Lebron has challenged the narrative of his earlier career.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 8:44 am
  • I'm far from a "fan boy" of Lebron as you say, but if it makes you feel better to assume that keep beating that drum.

    Some people just are blind to facts apparently. Carry on. :2thumbs:
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 8:46 am
  • 2_0_6 wrote:I'm far from a "fan boy" of Lebron as you say, but if it makes you feel better to assume that keep beating that drum.

    Some people just are blind to facts apparently. Carry on. :2thumbs:


    and some people are blinded by them... even going as far as leaving out facts that don't support their narrative.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 8:52 am
  • I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say LeBron has only been dominating the league the last three years. Have you only been paying attention the last three years, Si? I'm not trying to be condescending, but it seems you haven't been paying attention.

    Until Steph Curry blew up a few years ago, I think anybody who follows the league would say LeBron has been the most dominating player in the league since like his third season... and I don't even think it's close.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 8:54 am
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say LeBron has only been dominating the league the last three years. Have you only been paying attention the last three years, Si? I'm not trying to be condescending, but it seems you haven't been paying attention.

    Until Steph Curry blew up a few years ago, I think anybody who follows the league would say LeBron has been the most dominating player in the league since like his third season... and I don't even think it's close.


    Dominating in way that he isnt just racking up stats, but putting his team on his back. is that not the common narrative against him?
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 8:58 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say LeBron has only been dominating the league the last three years. Have you only been paying attention the last three years, Si? I'm not trying to be condescending, but it seems you haven't been paying attention.

    Until Steph Curry blew up a few years ago, I think anybody who follows the league would say LeBron has been the most dominating player in the league since like his third season... and I don't even think it's close.


    Dominating in way that he isnt just racking up stats, but putting his team on his back. is that not the common narrative against him?



    So you are saying that LeBron hasn't carried his team almost every year since he's been in the league? Outside of the couple years in Miami where both Wade and Bosh were healthy and one year Kyrie when decided to show up, his surrounding cast has been comical for the most part.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 8:59 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:I'm far from a "fan boy" of Lebron as you say, but if it makes you feel better to assume that keep beating that drum.

    Some people just are blind to facts apparently. Carry on. :2thumbs:


    and some people are blinded by them... even going as far as leaving out facts that don't support their narrative.



    My facts prove my narrative, your argument does not.

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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 9:03 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    JGfromtheNW wrote:I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say LeBron has only been dominating the league the last three years. Have you only been paying attention the last three years, Si? I'm not trying to be condescending, but it seems you haven't been paying attention.

    Until Steph Curry blew up a few years ago, I think anybody who follows the league would say LeBron has been the most dominating player in the league since like his third season... and I don't even think it's close.


    Dominating in way that he isnt just racking up stats, but putting his team on his back. is that not the common narrative against him?


    I guess I'm confused as to what your definition of dominating is now. It seems like it's not related to all-time stats, it's not related to his level of play compared to his peers of the same era, it's not how he compares to MJ, but it's how true common narratives like "he does/doesn't put his team on his back" are?
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 11:28 am
  • Yeah, i get its ambiguous.

    Let's look at this way:

    Lebron is 1-2 over the last 3 finals. Not great. He will likely make his way to a 4th Finals and lose badly again.

    Yet... if he had retired before his first run in with the Warriors his career was destined to be identified by the losses in Finals. His wins the last decade were only after he teamed up with the Heat and came out of the historically poor Eastern conference. His individual stats covered up a lack of true greatness. He dominated his league statistically (so did Jordan), but never truly took over the league.

    What he's done at Cleveland the last 3-4 years, however, is remarkable. Yes, it's not quantifiable by stats. But he has, without question, put that team on his back. This is what always came up as the biggest difference between he and Jordan. And now, even when he loses for the 3rd time in 4 years in the Finals... his greatness will only grow.

    To me, that's always been the difference. Jordan worked hard for his stats. Lebron seemed to coast to his. The lack of big game successes mirrored that. Even in losing, Lebron has overcome that.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 11:32 am
  • JORDAN > LeBald
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 11:33 am
  • 2_0_6 wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:I'm far from a "fan boy" of Lebron as you say, but if it makes you feel better to assume that keep beating that drum.

    Some people just are blind to facts apparently. Carry on. :2thumbs:


    and some people are blinded by them... even going as far as leaving out facts that don't support their narrative.



    My facts prove my narrative, your argument does not.

    :irishdrinkers:


    This is actually far too simplistic for an explanation... Your facts proving your narrative is exactly what I just said. But your facts leave out several others.. which clearly indicates you do not understand how facts or analysis work, which is the premise of an argument. I mean you're just making my argument for me. so thanks (irish guys toasting?)

    "Lebron has NEVER lost in a opening round!!!!!! LERON Wins!!!!!"

    But Jordan has never lost in a final. Jordan has more championships... etc. etc.

    I think you'd find that trying to be sardonic here is just distracting from the points being made. But go on anyways
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 11:41 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    2_0_6 wrote:I'm far from a "fan boy" of Lebron as you say, but if it makes you feel better to assume that keep beating that drum.

    Some people just are blind to facts apparently. Carry on. :2thumbs:


    and some people are blinded by them... even going as far as leaving out facts that don't support their narrative.



    My facts prove my narrative, your argument does not.

    :irishdrinkers:


    This is actually far too simplistic for an explanation... Your facts proving your narrative is exactly what I just said. But your facts leave out several others.. which clearly indicates you do not understand how facts or analysis work, which is the premise of an argument. I mean you're just making my argument for me. so thanks (irish guys toasting?)

    "Lebron has NEVER lost in a opening round!!!!!! LERON Wins!!!!!"

    But Jordan has never lost in a final. Jordan has more championships... etc. etc.



    I understand just what you typed just fine, and I also understand how facts and analysis work as well since I deal with them daily. I'm glad you can take a few posts on a forum and assume that of someone.

    Thanks for attempting to make your comments prove your point when all it did was muddy up your explanation and change your points along the way.

    Not related to stats, wait no, not related to his peers, wait no I know, he doesn't carry the team on his back.

    You sir, have a great weekend. Make sure to watch the games this weekend. We are just going to have to agree to disagree.

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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 3:29 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:Yeah, i get its ambiguous.

    Let's look at this way:

    Lebron is 1-2 over the last 3 finals. Not great. He will likely make his way to a 4th Finals and lose badly again.

    Yet... if he had retired before his first run in with the Warriors his career was destined to be identified by the losses in Finals. His wins the last decade were only after he teamed up with the Heat and came out of the historically poor Eastern conference. His individual stats covered up a lack of true greatness. He dominated his league statistically (so did Jordan), but never truly took over the league.

    What he's done at Cleveland the last 3-4 years, however, is remarkable. Yes, it's not quantifiable by stats. But he has, without question, put that team on his back. This is what always came up as the biggest difference between he and Jordan. And now, even when he loses for the 3rd time in 4 years in the Finals... his greatness will only grow.

    To me, that's always been the difference. Jordan worked hard for his stats. Lebron seemed to coast to his. The lack of big game successes mirrored that. Even in losing, Lebron has overcome that.


    How is that even his fault? Do you even look at the facts on the ground at all? Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love were both hurt in 1 finals. He entered into that Finals with 1 out of the Big 3. How do you want him to win with that? How is it his fault? Explain that.

    The other year Kevin Durant joins a 73 win team who already won the Championship. They have an unprecedented and unheard of Big 4. They have the starting team of the Olympic roster. How is that Lebron's fault? Explain it? What do you want him to do to beat that? They beat everybody else in the NBA by a wide margin too. It's not really surprising looking at their roster. What did you think would happen?

    Yes they will lose this year. Everybody will. How are you going to beat a Big 4? We have never seen anything like that in NBA history. It's an overly stacked team and the NBA needs to do something about it. It's ruining the game.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 7:08 pm
  • Forget stats, Jordan crushed more Hall of Fame players dreams, and its not even close.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Fri May 04, 2018 9:47 pm
  • NoChops wrote:Forget stats, Jordan crushed more Hall of Fame players dreams, and its not even close.


    Jordan was super lucky to play lots of very flawed teams in the Finals. Never once did he play an actual dynasty in the Finals. He NEVER, NEVER faced a Big 4 in the Finals. Nothing even close to that.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sat May 05, 2018 7:00 am
  • "very flawed" teams don't make the finals.

    Every team Jordan beat had a Hall of Famer on it. Half the time they had two.

    I don't know what a "big 4" is, but I'll give you a big six: Payton, Hawkins, McMillian, Schrempf, Kemp, Perkins.

    And every year Jordan had to beat Hall of Famers like :Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, The Dream, Wilkins, Miller, Mullin, Thomas, Bird, McHale etc. just to get to the playoffs.

    He dominated the some of the best players in history, his compition was greater. Lebron is great, Jordan is the GOAT.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sat May 05, 2018 12:30 pm
  • NoChops wrote:"very flawed" teams don't make the finals.

    Every team Jordan beat had a Hall of Famer on it. Half the time they had two.

    I don't know what a "big 4" is, but I'll give you a big six: Payton, Hawkins, McMillian, Schrempf, Kemp, Perkins.

    And every year Jordan had to beat Hall of Famers like :Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, The Dream, Wilkins, Miller, Mullin, Thomas, Bird, McHale etc. just to get to the playoffs.

    He dominated the some of the best players in history, his compition was greater. Lebron is great, Jordan is the GOAT.


    Flawed teams make the Finals all the time coming out of the weaker Conference. The West was garbage when Jordan was playing. If you beat the Knicks, Pacers and Pistons you would win.

    Your Big 6 is a joke. Kemp is the big guy there. Most of the rest are not a big anything. You are wildly exaggerating if you think all those guys were huge stars.

    Jordan never played anything like the Golden State Warriors Big 4. If he did he would LOSE. Kevin Durant joined a 73 win team (the best record of ALL TIME). A team that had already won the Championship and been to several. No team is going to beat that period. Not even the Bulls in the prime if they played them.

    Lebron got the Finals with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving both hurt and out. How is that Lebron's fault? Based on what? He stayed durable and healthy. It's not his fault his crew couldn't. So he goes into the Finals with 1 out of the Big 3. That NEVER happened to Jordan BTW. He never had 1 of the Big 3 in a Finals series. NEVER. How exactly do you want the guy to win with that?

    He was beating Bird and Mchale in the 90's. They were OLD. Their prime was in the 80's. Now beating them in the 80's would have been impressive. But that's not what happened.

    He was beating a YOUNG SHAQ for the most part. Before he was a more mature player and teamed up with Kobe when they started to win. Early in his career all he could do was dunk. Plus he would brick every free throw. He wasn't that great of a player. Just a big physical presence. He got better as he got more mature.

    Jordan beat the Utah Jazz twice. That's a Big 1 1/2. Stockton and Malone. Stockton was 1/2 because he only gives you offense. He gave you NOTHING on defense. He was even a liability there. So a Big 3 from the Bulls beat them as you would expect them to do.

    Jordan beat the 90's Lakers when they were old and slow. He never beat the 80's Lakers. Now that would be impressive. But it's not what happened. He beat a Big 1 in Barkley and a scrub supporting cast. As you would expect him to do. How would a Big 1 beat a Big 3?

    Jordan never beat any power house teams that were a dynasty. He beat FLAWED teams coming out of the other side. Just like people say the East is weak now. The West was WEAK then. It goes in cycles. There was no dynasty coming out of that other side when he was winning. Now if he beat the 80's Lakers more than 1 time I would be really impressed. But that's not what happened.

    Furthermore Jordan NEVER won anything until the added Pippen, Horace Grant and Rodman to the roster. When they had a Big 3 they won. When it was Jordan he lost for years. He used to complain he needed a better team around him. Also he had coach Phil Jackson. No small advantage. He had a lot around him. That's when he started to win.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sat May 05, 2018 2:06 pm
  • lol. The NBA leader in steals of ALL TIME only gets a half point cuz he is a liability and doesn't play defense?? You lost me there kid, have fun debating with the others who were only an itch in their daddy's pants in the 90's.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sat May 05, 2018 3:16 pm
  • They are both great, and it is almost impossible to compare them because they played in different eras. Jordan never had to face a team like GS. I don't care about what people say, but the Suns, Sonics, and Jazz of the 90's were not today's Warriors.

    LeBron hasn't had the best teams, but he has also had some great teams. The difference is he played against some absolutely great teams. Personally, I think the Spurs and Warriors were much better than anything the West offered in the 90's. Keep in mind the Warriors have two top 5 players in the NBA, and probably 4 top 25 players.

    It's really hard to make this debate right now while LeBron is still playing, but it will be much easier 10 years from now once LeBron is done playing.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sat May 05, 2018 3:19 pm
  • NoChops wrote:lol. The NBA leader in steals of ALL TIME only gets a half point cuz he is a liability and doesn't play defense?? You lost me there kid, have fun debating with the others who were only an itch in their daddy's pants in the 90's.


    He was not tall or big or strong. He did not have fast feet on defense. He was slow. He was not that great on defense. OK so you are saying he had quick hands. That is just one aspect. He didn't bring defense to the floor like Rodman or Pippen did. Nowhere even near. Those guys are tall and can rebound and block shots and alter shots of shorter players. Stockton absolutely could not do that. Plus Pippen and Rodman are like 3 times faster on defense. He didn't bring you a huge amount on defense other than quick hands. Which is something. But it's not everything by any means.

    ~ John Stockton 6'1" 175 lbs. What a giant powerhouse with super long arms.

    ~ Rodman 6'8". Could out rebound the building and had super fast feet on defense.

    ~ Pippen 6'7". As fast and athletic as anybody on the floor. Could be a dominant defender.

    They would literally post up Jordan on Stockton. And yes he was a LIABILITY. 6'6" 216 lbs. is not going to be stopped by 6'1" 175 lbs. In fact it was a terrible mismatch. He would just go straight over the top and Stockton absolutely could NOT stop him.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sat May 05, 2018 3:24 pm
  • Hawk-Lock wrote:They are both great, and it is almost impossible to compare them because they played in different eras. Jordan never had to face a team like GS. I don't care about what people say, but the Suns, Sonics, and Jazz of the 90's were not today's Warriors.

    LeBron hasn't had the best teams, but he has also had some great teams. The difference is he played against some absolutely great teams. Personally, I think the Spurs and Warriors were much better than anything the West offered in the 90's. Keep in mind the Warriors have two top 5 players in the NBA, and probably 4 top 25 players.

    It's really hard to make this debate right now while LeBron is still playing, but it will be much easier 10 years from now once LeBron is done playing.


    Indeed Jordan NEVER played anything like the Golden State Warriors of today. Nothing even close. Yes the Spurs and Warriors were far better than anything the West offered in the 90's. That's what I'm saying. Lebron ran into some true dynasties. Jordan did not.

    People will always talk about the # of Championships won. But it depends on who you have and who you play. Jordan played some flawed teams. Lebron has been unfortunate to run into some all time dynasties. Kevin Durant joined a 73 win team that already won the Championship and had been in several. That's the best record of all time. How do you really want the guy to win that? He didn't fail at all in losing to that. You would expect him to lose. And Jordan would lose to that too. He never played against a Big 4. NEVER.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sat May 05, 2018 8:39 pm
  • Damn LeBron is going crazy
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sun May 06, 2018 3:57 am
  • SanDiego49er wrote:
    Hawk-Lock wrote:They are both great, and it is almost impossible to compare them because they played in different eras. Jordan never had to face a team like GS. I don't care about what people say, but the Suns, Sonics, and Jazz of the 90's were not today's Warriors.

    LeBron hasn't had the best teams, but he has also had some great teams. The difference is he played against some absolutely great teams. Personally, I think the Spurs and Warriors were much better than anything the West offered in the 90's. Keep in mind the Warriors have two top 5 players in the NBA, and probably 4 top 25 players.

    It's really hard to make this debate right now while LeBron is still playing, but it will be much easier 10 years from now once LeBron is done playing.


    Indeed Jordan NEVER played anything like the Golden State Warriors of today. Nothing even close. Yes the Spurs and Warriors were far better than anything the West offered in the 90's. That's what I'm saying. Lebron ran into some true dynasties. Jordan did not.

    People will always talk about the # of Championships won. But it depends on who you have and who you play. Jordan played some flawed teams. Lebron has been unfortunate to run into some all time dynasties. Kevin Durant joined a 73 win team that already won the Championship and had been in several. That's the best record of all time. How do you really want the guy to win that? He didn't fail at all in losing to that. You would expect him to lose. And Jordan would lose to that too. He never played against a Big 4. NEVER.

    Like Hawk-Lock said it is hard to compare eras..
    This big four stuff is crap to me because there is no defense today like back then so stats are inflated
    which leads to higher scoring averages and thus so called superstars..One reason there was no big
    fours back then is because almost everyone had to play Defense There was not this spread
    wide with no center under the basket so good basketball players can average triple doubles you see
    now.I would look and see the last time anyone averaged a triple double before Westbrook ect and
    maybe you will understand why that is.I would say anyone that is good today is called a superstar
    and that media hype people buy into is money for the NBA..In my opinion only Lebron and Durant are
    the true superstars of today as they do play defense and can do all the other stuff.
    I know people will scream about Curry but without that 3 point offense geared for him we wouldn't
    hear about him and the guy is lazy on defense..
    I see some people think the Bulls had it easy..Ha Ha You weren't around then if you say that.
    We could take the Bulls of then and create a big four today..Raining 3's and still winning..
    Jordan
    Pippen
    Rodman
    Kukoc/Harper
    Kerr
    I will take those guys right there with Hodges and Armstrong on the bench.
    That lineup will destroy anyone with today's streetball 3 point offense as they
    all could shoot 3's(even Dennis when he felt like it)three of those guys were
    named to all time defense teams..There is Kerr who runs that 3 point show
    and he would be an All Star in todays game and yes it would be that easy.
    All those guys besides Kerr were very fast with long arms and the key here
    is they would all be playing great defense(maybe not Kerr) Kerr then was not
    a starter but would be in todays game with no doubt.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sun May 13, 2018 8:04 am
  • Grew up in the 80s...You can name countless NBA legends from that era.

    Most even remember "role" players like Joe Dumars., Byron Scott, Dennis Johnson....

    Greats like Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins...rarely talked about these days. From my memory, basketball in the 80s was as good as it can get.

    With that said, it's been very hard for me to compare anyone or team ...Kobe, the Warriors, etc....to Jordan and the Bulls.

    But...if I'm building a team and can chose anyone as the foundation...I'm taking LeBron. The man simply does it all. You can't really imagine topping Jordan's run of 6 championships. He did it in dramatic fashion with that layoff in between. But, if you switch their roles, I see LeBron winning just as many rings in Jordan's era while being on a team like the Bulls had.

    Jordan on the Cavs? I'm thinking they make the conference finals and that's about it.

    We will never know...hypothetical thoughts prove nothing when they can't be tested but, if Lebrons not the best ever...he's at least tied for that spot.
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sun May 13, 2018 8:21 am
  • SanDiego49er wrote:
    NoChops wrote:"very flawed" teams don't make the finals.

    Every team Jordan beat had a Hall of Famer on it. Half the time they had two.

    I don't know what a "big 4" is, but I'll give you a big six: Payton, Hawkins, McMillian, Schrempf, Kemp, Perkins.

    And every year Jordan had to beat Hall of Famers like :Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, The Dream, Wilkins, Miller, Mullin, Thomas, Bird, McHale etc. just to get to the playoffs.

    He dominated the some of the best players in history, his compition was greater. Lebron is great, Jordan is the GOAT.


    Flawed teams make the Finals all the time coming out of the weaker Conference. The West was garbage when Jordan was playing. If you beat the Knicks, Pacers and Pistons you would win.

    Your Big 6 is a joke. Kemp is the big guy there. Most of the rest are not a big anything. You are wildly exaggerating if you think all those guys were huge stars.

    Jordan never played anything like the Golden State Warriors Big 4. If he did he would LOSE. Kevin Durant joined a 73 win team (the best record of ALL TIME). A team that had already won the Championship and been to several. No team is going to beat that period. Not even the Bulls in the prime if they played them.

    Lebron got the Finals with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving both hurt and out. How is that Lebron's fault? Based on what? He stayed durable and healthy. It's not his fault his crew couldn't. So he goes into the Finals with 1 out of the Big 3. That NEVER happened to Jordan BTW. He never had 1 of the Big 3 in a Finals series. NEVER. How exactly do you want the guy to win with that?

    He was beating Bird and Mchale in the 90's. They were OLD. Their prime was in the 80's. Now beating them in the 80's would have been impressive. But that's not what happened.

    He was beating a YOUNG SHAQ for the most part. Before he was a more mature player and teamed up with Kobe when they started to win. Early in his career all he could do was dunk. Plus he would brick every free throw. He wasn't that great of a player. Just a big physical presence. He got better as he got more mature.

    Jordan beat the Utah Jazz twice. That's a Big 1 1/2. Stockton and Malone. Stockton was 1/2 because he only gives you offense. He gave you NOTHING on defense. He was even a liability there. So a Big 3 from the Bulls beat them as you would expect them to do.

    Jordan beat the 90's Lakers when they were old and slow. He never beat the 80's Lakers. Now that would be impressive. But it's not what happened. He beat a Big 1 in Barkley and a scrub supporting cast. As you would expect him to do. How would a Big 1 beat a Big 3?

    Jordan never beat any power house teams that were a dynasty. He beat FLAWED teams coming out of the other side. Just like people say the East is weak now. The West was WEAK then. It goes in cycles. There was no dynasty coming out of that other side when he was winning. Now if he beat the 80's Lakers more than 1 time I would be really impressed. But that's not what happened.

    Furthermore Jordan NEVER won anything until the added Pippen, Horace Grant and Rodman to the roster. When they had a Big 3 they won. When it was Jordan he lost for years. He used to complain he needed a better team around him. Also he had coach Phil Jackson. No small advantage. He had a lot around him. That's when he started to win.


    Agree that LeBron is the best ever or tied at a minimum but, the GSW aren't the barometer. They'd get dismantled by teams like Detroit Piston Bad Boys, Lakers, Celtics, Jazz, Knicks....I mean...breaking the regular season win record and then getting beat in dramatic fashion in the Finals?

    You can't call out Jordan for complaining about not having a team to compete, in support of LeBron who jumped ship to Miami and the Warriors who added Durant.

    Agree with your opinion...just not the methods you used to get there. The 80s and 90s were loaded with dangerous teams.

    Off-topic:
    I wouldn't take any other team over the Lakers or Celtics...early 80s. Take your pick. Either would wipe the floor with Golden State.
    Elemas
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Re: LeBron or Jordan?
Sun May 27, 2018 7:12 pm
  • This seals it for me, the supporting cast that LeBron has is pure trash and he still gets it done.
    getnasty
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2699
    Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:22 pm


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