Clayton: Seahawks showing why patience is key for winning

[bmorepunk]

Oh, so you remember the Seahawks without Russell Wilson.

then

We're talking about today, not 30 years ago.

Derp.

 

[Own The West]

A lot of cleaning was required for this thread. If you need to express your inner child take it to the Shack where it belongs.

Thank you for the good work!

 

[themunn]

What does he think is the key to winning in the playoffs? 3 wins in 6 years wants to know.

3 wins in 6 years isn't bad - only 3 NFC teams with more in that time.
Over 8 years no NFC team is near (8 wins, vs 6 next closest - Green Bay, who also have 0 Superbowl appearances in that time).

And since Carroll took over, his 10 playoff wins are 2nd only to Green Bay (who had 11, with 4 coming in the 2010 season all the way back). Next closest is 7.

So I think he knows something about winning.

Now do the AFC.

Can't be bothered looking at every team, but of teams that have won a Superbowl since 2010:

Patriots - 16 wins
Ravens - 8 wins
Chiefs - 7 wins
Broncos - 6 wins
Steelers - 5 wins

So Carroll's 10 wins stacks up pretty well I'd say.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Nice. As frustrating as it has been to see only 3 playoff wins in 6 years, it still has been one hell of a run since Russ and Pete have been here. Still not good enough, but it certainly could be a lot worse.
Sometimes, you gotta' step back and see what you have and appreciate. Even if it's extremely frustrating at times.
I can see both sides of it a lot more these days. After that crap show vs. the Rams (2 weeks after dominating them to win the division) it took me a lot longer to get off the ledge this time.
I'll never understand the 24/7 everything sucks, Russ bashing, Pete bashing over and over again.
But, to each his/her own. I THINK we all love this team and want them to succeed. Even if sometimes, it's shocking how much it seems that some want them to fail so they can say they were right about their doom and gloom.
And for the record, I would like to see them move on from Pete. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate what he has meant to this franchise.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

What does he think is the key to winning in the playoffs? 3 wins in 6 years wants to know.

3 wins in 6 years isn't bad - only 3 NFC teams with more in that time.
Over 8 years no NFC team is near (8 wins, vs 6 next closest - Green Bay, who also have 0 Superbowl appearances in that time).

And since Carroll took over, his 10 playoff wins are 2nd only to Green Bay (who had 11, with 4 coming in the 2010 season all the way back). Next closest is 7.

So I think he knows something about winning.

It's not simply not winning that is frustrating to me. It's not adapting to win more that is. It seems every playoff loss was because of the same reasons, namely PC continuously trying to fit square pegs in round holes. AKA, failing to adapt to the personnel on his team. It follows a formula. Defense gets tired out in the first half due to a bunch of 3 or 4 and outs, the team falls behind, opposing defenses eat up the OL because they know we're either running it up the middle or doing yet another 5-7 drop pass play. And then our success comes mainly from the scramble drill and Russ's otherworldly magic. It doesn't come from coaches adjustments for the most part, it's Russ being Russ.

The fact that this pattern is what his camp said he was supposedly frustrated with is very telling to me. Why would he or fans expect to have trust in the coach when the team continuously tries doing the same exact thing. This past loss was the worst of all. Especially considering the start we had. The team was utterly flat (which is a complete coaching issue) and Carroll absolutely flopped in failing to adjust the gameplay to the defense. I think that's why people are more frustrated than before. Russ tried to lobby for something more and he achieved that. But then 2 bad games and we revert completely back to the same old same old. No adjustments to the way Ds were playing us, just back to square peg/round hole. Rinse repeat. Good but not good enough, another carbon copy early exit.

We have a magic QB being forced to play a different game than is optimum for him. I'd feel a lot better if we lost because we played to our strength, tried something new, but too can't accept continuously losing because we aren't. Because you guys are right, we're lucky and partially spoiled with so much sustained success getting into the playoffs, but early exits for the exact same reason year after year after year has gotten very old. And the magic QB apparently thinks the same way.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

The lack of adjustments and/or the seemingly blatant refusal to adjust to the opponent is maddening to say the least. For some reason, it just got to me more this year than any other of the playoff losses. Not to sound overly negative, but Pete getting outcoached has been pretty normal for a while now. All while Russ saves him basically. Just an opinion. Stubborn isn't cutting it.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

The lack of adjustments and/or the seemingly blatant refusal to adjust to the opponent is maddening to say the least. For some reason, it just got to me more this year than any other of the playoff losses. Not to sound overly negative, but Pete getting outcoached has been pretty normal for a while now. All while Russ saves him basically. Just an opinion. Stubborn isn't cutting it.

I think it hit this year so hard because the team seemingly went into the game knowing what was coming. It was the flattest performance I've seen from them in a long while. Maybe they were just frustrated with and tired of the same old pattern. I've tried to figure out how they would come out for a playoff game against a rival so poorly, that's the best answer ive thought of or read.

 

[oldhawkfan]

What does he think is the key to winning in the playoffs? 3 wins in 6 years wants to know.

You know what I remember? No playoff wins from 1985-2004. You know what else I remember? No playoff appearances AT ALL from 1989-1998.

Thank you. Saved me from saying it. Us older 12's should get a stinkin' badge for putting up with the 1990's alone.

Along with putting up with the growing list of this fanbase that feels entitled to winning.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Along with putting up with the growing list of this fanbase that feels entitled to winning.

Entitled?

Nope. Any fan since before the Holmgren era certainly doesn't feel entitled. High expectations that the combo of Schneider/Carroll and Wilson should be able to figure out how to win in the playoffs and get back to more Superbowls, or at least deeper in the playoffs?

Absolutely.

 

[Maulbert]

Along with putting up with the growing list of this fanbase that feels entitled to winning.

Entitled?

Nope. Any fan since before the Holmgren era certainly doesn't feel entitled. High expectations that the combo of Schneider/Carroll and Wilson should be able to figure out how to win in the playoffs and get back to more Superbowls, or at least deeper in the playoffs?

Absolutely.

So, they expect more from Carroll and Wilson, so their solution is to get rid of them? Because that makes no goddamn sense. If you expect more from them, then they have higher potential, and firing/trading them only removes their services from the team. A new coach/QB won't guarantee more winning.

I call bullshit.

 

[FPD]

What does he think is the key to winning in the playoffs? 3 wins in 6 years wants to know.

You know what I remember? No playoff wins from 1985-2004. You know what else I remember? No playoff appearances AT ALL from 1989-1998.

Thank you. Saved me from saying it. Us older 12's should get a stinkin' badge for putting up with the 1990's alone.

Preach!

^^^ What these guys said!

 

[Maelstrom787]

It's not that people don't have a right to complain, it's that people have grown so disgruntled with relative success that it's hard to speak in even remotely positive terms about the team without a select group of usual suspects coming in to detract from the conversation, usually with points irrelevant to the topic of discussion that derail the thread.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Along with putting up with the growing list of this fanbase that feels entitled to winning.

Entitled?

Nope. Any fan since before the Holmgren era certainly doesn't feel entitled. High expectations that the combo of Schneider/Carroll and Wilson should be able to figure out how to win in the playoffs and get back to more Superbowls, or at least deeper in the playoffs?

Absolutely.

So, they expect more from Carroll and Wilson, so their solution is to get rid of them? Because that makes no goddamn sense. If you expect more from them, then they have higher potential, and firing/trading them only removes their services from the team. A new coach/QB won't guarantee more winning.

I call $h!t.

Those aren't entitled fans, those are ignorant fans.

 

[JustTheTip]

Along with putting up with the growing list of this fanbase that feels entitled to winning.

Entitled?

Nope. Any fan since before the Holmgren era certainly doesn't feel entitled. High expectations that the combo of Schneider/Carroll and Wilson should be able to figure out how to win in the playoffs and get back to more Superbowls, or at least deeper in the playoffs?

Absolutely.

So, they expect more from Carroll and Wilson, so their solution is to get rid of them? Because that makes no goddamn sense. If you expect more from them, then they have higher potential, and firing/trading them only removes their services from the team. A new coach/QB won't guarantee more winning.

I call $h!t.

Those aren't entitled fans, those are ignorant fans.

It isn't ignorant, at least for Pete. There is more than enough data now (really several years ago) to identify his negative patterns and form the very reasonable opinion that those patterns won't change and negatively impact the team's ability to elevate beyond what they have shown since the super bowl loss.

Winning is great but, if it isn't building towards more, really doesn't mean much more than what the team was doing in the '90s. My die-hard fandom started in 90 (on the Krieg to Skansi play.) I was a casual fan prior. I found a lot of the games in the 90s much more entertaining than Pete's continual misuse of talent that is superior (overall) to what was on those teams.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Just because some people think it's time to move on from Pete, it doesn't make them ignorant and/or entitled.
And wanting more, and expecting more is justified, especially with the talent on this roster.
Since when was it not ok to have an opinion? Since when was it not ok to appreciate what the team has done, while also being frustrated that they haven't done more? This is a message board, full of opinions.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It isn't ignorant, at least for Pete. There is more than enough data now (really several years ago) to identify his negative patterns and form the very reasonable opinion that those patterns won't change and negatively impact the team's ability to elevate beyond what they have shown since the super bowl loss.

Winning is great but, if it isn't building towards more, really doesn't mean much more than what the team was doing in the '90s. My die-hard fandom started in 90 (on the Krieg to Skansi play.) I was a casual fan prior. I found a lot of the games in the 90s much more entertaining than Pete's continual misuse of talent that is superior (overall) to what was on those teams.

That's not the ignorant part. The ignorant part is saying that blowing it all up by firing Pete without a concrete plan in place, or ownership that has the ability to facilitate such a drastic culture and leadership change at the top.

Let's face it, Jody Allen inherited a pro sports team that she probably has neither the acumen or knowledge to go through a wholesale coaching and leadership change, nor the stomach for it.

That's WHY she gave Pete and John extensions, to steward the team for another 4-5 years as she decides her next step.

So for people on here to just say "FIRE PETE!" That's ignorant of the current organizational situation. Very few people on here discuss Paul Allen dying, and what that void has meant to these sorts of discussions.

 

[JustTheTip]

It isn't ignorant, at least for Pete. There is more than enough data now (really several years ago) to identify his negative patterns and form the very reasonable opinion that those patterns won't change and negatively impact the team's ability to elevate beyond what they have shown since the super bowl loss.

Winning is great but, if it isn't building towards more, really doesn't mean much more than what the team was doing in the '90s. My die-hard fandom started in 90 (on the Krieg to Skansi play.) I was a casual fan prior. I found a lot of the games in the 90s much more entertaining than Pete's continual misuse of talent that is superior (overall) to what was on those teams.

That's not the ignorant part. The ignorant part is saying that blowing it all up by firing Pete without a concrete plan in place, or ownership that has the ability to facilitate such a drastic culture and leadership change at the top.

Let's face it, Jody Allen inherited a pro sports team that she probably has neither the acumen or knowledge to go through a wholesale coaching and leadership change, nor the stomach for it.

That's WHY she gave Pete and John extensions, to steward the team for another 4-5 years as she decides her next step.

So for people on here to just say "FIRE PETE!" That's ignorant of the current organizational situation. Very few people on here discuss Paul Allen dying, and what that void has meant to these sorts of discussions.

Still not ignorant. Pete should have been dealt with years ago. Those of us pointing out the erosion of what he built then were also called ignorant and stupid... no matter how many examples of why we provided. If she was unsure what to do she should have paid external consultants. Paying Pete for 5 more years was not a good move. If he sticks around all 5 of those years the likelihood is the team will be right back where it was when he got here as far as culture goes.

I can agree that the team should be putting a plan in place. But that could be said for the last 5 years. We are pretty much at the point where it may be time to just rip off the bandaid and let come what will come. Maybe the infection will get worse, but at least we aren't looking at red lines moving up our limbs and saying "at least it isn't flesh eating."

 

[Jville]

Here is the link to the "Pete Carroll Needs To Go" topic >>>[urltargetblank]https://seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=161120&start=200#p2532593[/urltargetblank]

Returning to the topic of patience, the hard ball phase of free agency appears to have begun ..........
[tweet]https://twitter.com/MySportsUpdate/status/1374420548013355011[/tweet]
.................... when the music begins to slow is when it begins to gets interesting.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It isn't ignorant, at least for Pete. There is more than enough data now (really several years ago) to identify his negative patterns and form the very reasonable opinion that those patterns won't change and negatively impact the team's ability to elevate beyond what they have shown since the super bowl loss.

Winning is great but, if it isn't building towards more, really doesn't mean much more than what the team was doing in the '90s. My die-hard fandom started in 90 (on the Krieg to Skansi play.) I was a casual fan prior. I found a lot of the games in the 90s much more entertaining than Pete's continual misuse of talent that is superior (overall) to what was on those teams.

That's not the ignorant part. The ignorant part is saying that blowing it all up by firing Pete without a concrete plan in place, or ownership that has the ability to facilitate such a drastic culture and leadership change at the top.

Let's face it, Jody Allen inherited a pro sports team that she probably has neither the acumen or knowledge to go through a wholesale coaching and leadership change, nor the stomach for it.

That's WHY she gave Pete and John extensions, to steward the team for another 4-5 years as she decides her next step.

So for people on here to just say "FIRE PETE!" That's ignorant of the current organizational situation. Very few people on here discuss Paul Allen dying, and what that void has meant to these sorts of discussions.

Still not ignorant. Pete should have been dealt with years ago. Those of us pointing out the erosion of what he built then were also called ignorant and stupid... no matter how many examples of why we provided. If she was unsure what to do she should have paid external consultants. Paying Pete for 5 more years was not a good move. If he sticks around all 5 of those years the likelihood is the team will be right back where it was when he got here as far as culture goes.

I can agree that the team should be putting a plan in place. But that could be said for the last 5 years. We are pretty much at the point where it may be time to just rip off the bandaid and let come what will come. Maybe the infection will get worse, but at least we aren't looking at red lines moving up our limbs and saying "at least it isn't flesh eating."

So you expected a man who was dealing with terminal cancer for close to a decade fighting for his life to "deal with Pete Carroll" in the sense of having just won a SB and came close to winning another, of who you get along great with and are proud of what you've built together with John Schneider to fire the most successful coach and leader in your franchise's history who was STILL winning.

Yep. Still ignorant.

 

[JustTheTip]

It isn't ignorant, at least for Pete. There is more than enough data now (really several years ago) to identify his negative patterns and form the very reasonable opinion that those patterns won't change and negatively impact the team's ability to elevate beyond what they have shown since the super bowl loss.

Winning is great but, if it isn't building towards more, really doesn't mean much more than what the team was doing in the '90s. My die-hard fandom started in 90 (on the Krieg to Skansi play.) I was a casual fan prior. I found a lot of the games in the 90s much more entertaining than Pete's continual misuse of talent that is superior (overall) to what was on those teams.

That's not the ignorant part. The ignorant part is saying that blowing it all up by firing Pete without a concrete plan in place, or ownership that has the ability to facilitate such a drastic culture and leadership change at the top.

Let's face it, Jody Allen inherited a pro sports team that she probably has neither the acumen or knowledge to go through a wholesale coaching and leadership change, nor the stomach for it.

That's WHY she gave Pete and John extensions, to steward the team for another 4-5 years as she decides her next step.

So for people on here to just say "FIRE PETE!" That's ignorant of the current organizational situation. Very few people on here discuss Paul Allen dying, and what that void has meant to these sorts of discussions.

Still not ignorant. Pete should have been dealt with years ago. Those of us pointing out the erosion of what he built then were also called ignorant and stupid... no matter how many examples of why we provided. If she was unsure what to do she should have paid external consultants. Paying Pete for 5 more years was not a good move. If he sticks around all 5 of those years the likelihood is the team will be right back where it was when he got here as far as culture goes.

I can agree that the team should be putting a plan in place. But that could be said for the last 5 years. We are pretty much at the point where it may be time to just rip off the bandaid and let come what will come. Maybe the infection will get worse, but at least we aren't looking at red lines moving up our limbs and saying "at least it isn't flesh eating."

So you expected a man who was dealing with terminal cancer for close to a decade fighting for his life to "deal with Pete Carroll" in the sense of having just won a SB and came close to winning another, of who you get along great with and are proud of what you've built together with John Schneider to fire the most successful coach and leader in your franchise's history who was STILL winning.

Yep. Still ignorant.

I expect him to show the acumen he showed throughout his life, including when he was previously dealing with the same cancer, and either take care of it or put people in place to take care of it. Of course, he was not bound by my expectations but that does not make my position on things any more ignorant than yours or anybody else's.

There is a big difference between being a winning team and winning games (in my opinion.) The Seahawks were on the cusp of being a winning team, and then the same man who put them in that position pulled the carpet out. A little at a time. So it wasn't obvious. And probably not on purpose.