Cowherd: Since death of PA, Carroll has "unquestioned power"

[Maelstrom787]

The irony.

Those that are cool with merely making the playoffs and getting immediately bounced because it's better than the lean years. Is going to be the reason the HoF QB leaves, sending the franchise back into the lean years. :shock:

But I'm the spoiled one! LOL

It's about expectation. When you have a top 5 QB, it's about Superbowls. Of course you're not going to win it every year, but the Seahawks are not even coming close. Rodgers and the Packers deem their season a failure.

Well, I'm the only one here who even remotely "defended" Carroll in the thread, so I assume the irony referred to here is gleaned from my comment.

You were happy about the Waldron hire too, Fade. You and I both thought it was a slam dunk, and you and I both likely were hoping for him once it came out that he was interviewed.

Peteball has pillars in theory that are necessary for any successful team, and issues in execution that madden us all. Yes, me too.

I'm just saying that I don't think said core pillars of Pete's philosophy necessarily run totally opposite of what Russ (and most of us here) are looking for.

Ball control is good. Sustaining drives is good. Helping the defense by keeping ahold of the ball is good. Explosive plays are good. Physicality is good.

I agree that Pete's number 1 priority needs to be keeping Russ happy. Russ is the piece that makes this all work. I think Peteball can work, too - as long as its implemented differently. Very differently.

Hiring Waldron and Dickerson from a team that famously runs the ball effectively and creates opportunities in the passing game signals to me that Pete is looking to implement his vision in a contemporary manner, which is sorely needed. We've seen that he can change. The offense this season was unthinkable before. I don't think he's done changing.

That's literally all I'm getting at. Not saying that playoff appearances are the indicator of a successful season.

 

[xray]

Carroll swings as much weight in the Hawks organization as Belichick does in NE . The comparison of the two ends there when you consider the ' ring count ' .

 

[Scorpion05]

Carroll swings as much weight in the Hawks organization as Belichick does in NE . The comparison of the two ends there when you consider the ' ring count ' .

Belichick at least has more rings, and even he had to answer to Robert Kraft when Bill wanted to ship Brady off and keep Jimmy G. Wilson doesn’t have that owner to talk to. We no longer have one of the best owners in the league here.

We might start to look at the death of Paul Allen as the beginning of the end. And we didn’t see it coming.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I think that the Allen connection is the most relevant.

We have a path of least resistance owner combined with a path of least resistance coach.

That in itself is somewhat a harbinger of being a bottom feeder soon enough.

But there is a good chance Jody is keeping Pete in place because that is Paul's legacy. This isn't about being great or winning or even being competitive. It is about preserving a memory. And if that is the case, we are somewhat screwed.

Then I have no issue or umbrage when Wilson leaves for greener pastures. When Wilson does leave, Pete probably does not win another playoff game in his career. But I'm not sure Pete will ever win another playoff game with Wilson either.

So I don't know if trading Wilson for draft picks or Watson or anything is going to matter. Pete stopped being a good HC some time ago, basically treading water while getting some extra wins because of Russ.

I never understood what was going through Wilson's mind when he signed the extension. It made no sense. Pete was always going to hold him back with his outdated and incompetent gameplans. Why sign on for more of that?

But Wilson is loyal in his way and he likely wanted to give Pete every chance he could. Last year was that chance and probably the realization that it never was anyone else's fault - it was always Pete. The moment Wilson realized that and decided to explore his options? It probably cemented things.

Wilson is gone, almost assuredly. Because I don't see a future where we get rid of Pete to keep Wilson and that is the only way we keep him. He will likely play the one more year and then force a trade.

Pete probably delivers a few 4 or 5 win seasons before getting fired. Not really a rosy future but the likely one.

 

[rcaido]

Last year majority of you guys didn't even think they would make the playoff let alone win 8 games.

This season some were saying we were going to finish last... We end up getting 12 wins and won at the toughest division. We just happened to be paired up against the Rams for the playoffs. Everyone here is being dramatic. Wilson is not getting traded & Pete is not getting fired.

We saw how good our offense can be. We also saw how solid our D second half of the season. New offensive coordinator, am i the only one excited for this coming season.

If we can get a LG and Center, that would great. Maybe get a nice 3rd receiver.

 

[kf3339]

I think that the Allen connection is the most relevant.

We have a path of least resistance owner combined with a path of least resistance coach.

That in itself is somewhat a harbinger of being a bottom feeder soon enough.

But there is a good chance Jody is keeping Pete in place because that is Paul's legacy. This isn't about being great or winning or even being competitive. It is about preserving a memory. And if that is the case, we are somewhat screwed.

Then I have no issue or umbrage when Wilson leaves for greener pastures. When Wilson does leave, Pete probably does not win another playoff game in his career. But I'm not sure Pete will ever win another playoff game with Wilson either.

So I don't know if trading Wilson for draft picks or Watson or anything is going to matter. Pete stopped being a good HC some time ago, basically treading water while getting some extra wins because of Russ.

I never understood what was going through Wilson's mind when he signed the extension. It made no sense. Pete was always going to hold him back with his outdated and incompetent gameplans. Why sign on for more of that?

But Wilson is loyal in his way and he likely wanted to give Pete every chance he could. Last year was that chance and probably the realization that it never was anyone else's fault - it was always Pete. The moment Wilson realized that and decided to explore his options? It probably cemented things.

Wilson is gone, almost assuredly. Because I don't see a future where we get rid of Pete to keep Wilson and that is the only way we keep him. He will likely play the one more year and then force a trade.

Pete probably delivers a few 4 or 5 win seasons before getting fired. Not really a rosy future but the likely one.

:ditto:

 

[Torc]

I think there is definitely some truth to Cowherd's comments. And from what I've heard in interviews with Russ, he had some personal affection for and loyalty to Paul Allen.

I don't know how interested Jody Allen is in owning and managing a football team, but you know what would be worse than an uninvolved owner? Selling to the wrong person/group. If Jody is going to sell the team, I hope (and believe) that she'll want to honor Paul's legacy by selling it to someone with the same interest that he had in both the team and the city. There's only so many people with the attitude, interest, and bankroll to own an NFL team.

 

[Tusc2000]

I don't think it's an either-or thing with Pete and Russ. What gives me hope is that I've seen Pete embrace change. That said, however, Pete is going to have to make some really hard decisions soon. I can't see Waldron staying if Russ is going to be happy. I also am wondering if and when the ax is going to fall on Norton. Pete is like a lot of coaches, keeps his friends on longer than he should. Loyalty can be good, except when it's not. We've seen some underperforming assistants stay on way too long here, form Cable to Bevell to Ruel to Carroll's own kids.

Bottom line here is that changes have to happen somewhere in this organization -- in this off-season. I'll give Pete the benefit of the doubt, he's earned it, but standing still is not an option at this point. Russ made that clear.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I don't think it's an either-or thing with Pete and Russ. What gives me hope is that I've seen Pete embrace change. That said, however, Pete is going to have to make some really hard decisions soon. I can't see Waldron staying if Russ is going to be happy. I also am wondering if and when the ax is going to fall on Norton. Pete is like a lot of coaches, keeps his friends on longer than he should. Loyalty can be good, except when it's not. We've seen some underperforming assistants stay on way too long here, form Cable to Bevell to Ruel to Carroll's own kids.

Bottom line here is that changes have to happen somewhere in this organization -- in this off-season. I'll give Pete the benefit of the doubt, he's earned it, but standing still is not an option at this point. Russ made that clear.

For what its worth, Pete's sons seem like pretty decent coaches. Nate coaches a fairly successful WR unit and Brennan coordinated an efficient but underutilized rushing attack in 2020. Furthermore, by Pete's own admission, his sons are the ones who stand up to him the most often on staff.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Last year majority of you guys didn't even think they would make the playoff let alone win 8 games.

This season some were saying we were going to finish last... We end up getting 12 wins and won at the toughest division. We just happened to be paired up against the Rams for the playoffs. Everyone here is being dramatic. Wilson is not getting traded & Pete is not getting fired.

We saw how good our offense can be. We also saw how solid our D second half of the season. New offensive coordinator, am i the only one excited for this coming season.

If we can get a LG and Center, that would great. Maybe get a nice 3rd receiver.

Do you think any other team but the Rams would have made a difference? The Hawks were going nowhere in the playoffs. This will be the 4th OC under Pete in 10 years so I expect more of the same to come. The problem with last season is that Seattle had a cream puff of a schedule (seriously, who did they beat that had any relevance). A LG and C would be awesome, but other holes will need to be filled and the team has little cap space and draft picks to do so. I think if the 49ers see some semblance of health next season, the Hawks are battling the Cards for 3rd in the West and 10 wins is about the ceiling for the team. Hope i'm wrong.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Last year majority of you guys didn't even think they would make the playoff let alone win 8 games.

This season some were saying we were going to finish last... We end up getting 12 wins and won at the toughest division. We just happened to be paired up against the Rams for the playoffs. Everyone here is being dramatic. Wilson is not getting traded & Pete is not getting fired.

We saw how good our offense can be. We also saw how solid our D second half of the season. New offensive coordinator, am i the only one excited for this coming season.

If we can get a LG and Center, that would great. Maybe get a nice 3rd receiver.

I'm excited too. Last year showed that Pete is willing to move off stereotypical Peteball, it just wasn't executed properly.

Honestly, I don't even see Center as a huge hole. That's part of the reason why I'm excited about the new staff on offense. If the Seahawks move towards more zone concepts like Waldron and Dickerson have helped create in the past, Pocic stands to improve. I hope he can be retained, because he's built for that type of scheme. Left guard remains a hole, though. Need a new face there.

 

[Tusc2000]

Last year majority of you guys didn't even think they would make the playoff let alone win 8 games.

This season some were saying we were going to finish last... We end up getting 12 wins and won at the toughest division. We just happened to be paired up against the Rams for the playoffs. Everyone here is being dramatic. Wilson is not getting traded & Pete is not getting fired.

We saw how good our offense can be. We also saw how solid our D second half of the season. New offensive coordinator, am i the only one excited for this coming season.

If we can get a LG and Center, that would great. Maybe get a nice 3rd receiver.

I'm excited too. Last year showed that Pete is willing to move off stereotypical Peteball, it just wasn't executed properly.

Honestly, I don't even see Center as a huge hole. That's part of the reason why I'm excited about the new staff on offense. If the Seahawks move towards more zone concepts like Waldron and Dickerson have helped create in the past, Pocic stands to improve. I hope he can be retained, because he's built for that type of scheme. Left guard remains a hole, though. Need a new face there.

It's true, Pete did move off his run-first offense in the first half of the season -- in part because the D was having trouble and we needed to let Russ out-score the opponent. But once the D began to improve in the latter part of the year, Pete reverted back to Pete-ball. I know it's MMQB'ing, but I do wonder how things would have gone against the Rams in the playoffs if Pete had opened the throttle and had let Russ air it out.

 

[John63]

Last year majority of you guys didn't even think they would make the playoff let alone win 8 games.

This season some were saying we were going to finish last... We end up getting 12 wins and won at the toughest division. We just happened to be paired up against the Rams for the playoffs. Everyone here is being dramatic. Wilson is not getting traded & Pete is not getting fired.

We saw how good our offense can be. We also saw how solid our D second half of the season. New offensive coordinator, am i the only one excited for this coming season.

If we can get a LG and Center, that would great. Maybe get a nice 3rd receiver.

I'm excited too. Last year showed that Pete is willing to move off stereotypical Peteball, it just wasn't executed properly.

Honestly, I don't even see Center as a huge hole. That's part of the reason why I'm excited about the new staff on offense. If the Seahawks move towards more zone concepts like Waldron and Dickerson have helped create in the past, Pocic stands to improve. I hope he can be retained, because he's built for that type of scheme. Left guard remains a hole, though. Need a new face there.

It's true, Pete did move off his run-first offense in the first half of the season -- in part because the D was having trouble and we needed to let Russ out-score the opponent. But once the D began to improve in the latter part of the year, Pete reverted back to Pete-ball. I know it's MMQB'ing, but I do wonder how things would have gone against the Rams in the playoffs if Pete had opened the throttle and had let Russ air it out.

You will never know and I doubt things will change much this year. IF the experiment works, and we run as much as he is saying we will be one and done in the playoffs again. If it fails it will be too late to change again, and we will not make the playoffs.


FYI PC did not show he was willing to change, if he had he would not have changed back, and judging by the fact the OC is gone one could presume it was not PC who change by the OC who ignored him. Doing something for half a season does not prove your willing to change unless you stick with it. If you don't all you did was experiment, the fact he now says he wants to run more shows he never changed at all.

Example instead of forcing the OC to adjust he just changed back, that is not willing to change that is an experiment.

We will see whats what soon enough.

 

[jammerhawk]

A lot of posters here are doing the reductio ad absurdum with the " it is astonishing how many posters here are still doing the 'I prefer Carroll over Wilson' argument". They must be stupid for doing so (my interpretation).

I support Carroll but certainly don't prefer Carroll over Wilson and suspect this situation has been quite overblown and becoming more so as time moves on. I prefer the team to keep both, and to become more progressive offensively and believe the new OC has the ability to have that reality happen.

Pete has been a winning coach everywhere he has coached. He may be old but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have his team win games. I know he hates to lose and was apparently upset the way the team lost against LA in the WC game. To say he's incompetent is really out there and unrelated to the reality of W/L ratios.

On both sides of this argument there are personal views based upon personal bias.I suspect in time we will eventually find out what really is going on. At present there seems to be an orchestrated media campaign from sources close to either side but mostly Wilson's agent. Is that over money and perceived imbalance of power or for a quid pro quo to modify RW's contract? Maybe Wilson really doesn't like Pete, but I doubt it. We haven't heard much of anything from the team except the team is disappointed in Wilson taking to media herein. Without elevating the story I don't know what else the team should say. Stories are being spun and BS reigns.

So what if Pete presently has unquestioned power? Is this somehow negative for the team? With PA being gone somebody needs to be in charge. Negative for the team? I guess so if you truly think Pete is incompetent, and not so much if as the evidence demonstrates he is attempting to find ways to improve his team. The recent record and the coaching changes are some evidence to support a belief pete sees a need for changes to be made on O.

Wilson Isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and neither is Carroll.

 

[Scorpion05]

A lot of posters here are doing the reductio ad absurdum with the " it is astonishing how many posters here are still doing the 'I prefer Carroll over Wilson' argument". They must be stupid for doing so (my interpretation).

I support Carroll but certainly don't prefer Carroll over Wilson and suspect this situation has been quite overblown and becoming more so as time moves on. I prefer the team to keep both, and to become more progressive offensively and believe the new OC has the ability to have that reality happen.

Pete has been a winning coach everywhere he has coached. He may be old but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have his team win games. I know he hates to lose and was apparently upset the way the team lost against LA in the WC game. To say he's incompetent is really out there and unrelated to the reality of W/L ratios.

On both sides of this argument there are personal views based upon personal bias.I suspect in time we will eventually find out what really is going on. At present there seems to be an orchestrated media campaign from sources close to either side but mostly Wilson's agent. Is that over money and perceived imbalance of power or for a quid pro quo to modify RW's contract? Maybe Wilson really doesn't like Pete, but I doubt it. We haven't heard much of anything from the team except the team is disappointed in Wilson taking to media herein. Without elevating the story I don't know what else the team should say. Stories are being spun and BS reigns.

So what if Pete presently has unquestioned power? Is this somehow negative for the team? With PA being gone somebody needs to be in charge. Negative for the team? I guess so if you truly think Pete is incompetent, and not so much if as the evidence demonstrates he is attempting to find ways to improve his team. The recent record and the coaching changes are some evidence to support a belief pete sees a need for changes to be made on O.

Wilson Isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and neither is Carroll..

Are we....sure about that? Like, outside of college??? Haha

I love Pete. So much so that I hate him at times, like any person you love. I think he's a great coach despite his flaws, he definitely knows how to get the best out of defensive backs and has shown he can coach up a defense to be competent. I just also think we overrate him, and we never question his arrogance. We can't really say he's succeeded anywhere because like Belichick, he needs a QB to win. A great defense can only win you so many games.

 

[Maelstrom787]

A lot of posters here are doing the reductio ad absurdum with the " it is astonishing how many posters here are still doing the 'I prefer Carroll over Wilson' argument". They must be stupid for doing so (my interpretation).

I support Carroll but certainly don't prefer Carroll over Wilson and suspect this situation has been quite overblown and becoming more so as time moves on. I prefer the team to keep both, and to become more progressive offensively and believe the new OC has the ability to have that reality happen.

Pete has been a winning coach everywhere he has coached. He may be old but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have his team win games. I know he hates to lose and was apparently upset the way the team lost against LA in the WC game. To say he's incompetent is really out there and unrelated to the reality of W/L ratios.

On both sides of this argument there are personal views based upon personal bias.I suspect in time we will eventually find out what really is going on. At present there seems to be an orchestrated media campaign from sources close to either side but mostly Wilson's agent. Is that over money and perceived imbalance of power or for a quid pro quo to modify RW's contract? Maybe Wilson really doesn't like Pete, but I doubt it. We haven't heard much of anything from the team except the team is disappointed in Wilson taking to media herein. Without elevating the story I don't know what else the team should say. Stories are being spun and BS reigns.

So what if Pete presently has unquestioned power? Is this somehow negative for the team? With PA being gone somebody needs to be in charge. Negative for the team? I guess so if you truly think Pete is incompetent, and not so much if as the evidence demonstrates he is attempting to find ways to improve his team. The recent record and the coaching changes are some evidence to support a belief pete sees a need for changes to be made on O.

Wilson Isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and neither is Carroll.

Are we....sure about that? Like, outside of college??? Haha

I love Pete. So much so that I hate him at times, like any person you love. I think he's a great coach despite his flaws, he definitely knows how to get the best out of defensive backs and has shown he can coach up a defense to be competent. I just also think we overrate him, and we never question his arrogance. We can't really say he's succeeded anywhere because like Belichick, he needs a QB to win. A great defense can only win you so many games.

We never question his arrogance?

Have you even been here the past 5 years? It's all this board does.

 

[jammerhawk]

Unfortunately it’s the same arguments over and over and over. Somehow worked into almost any thread. Tiresome.

Now lately with Wilson’s stated unhappiness Pete is the devil incarnate, can do nothing right, and is a drag on the team. We must choose between them. Give me a break.

I do think Pete needs to attempt to be more inclusive in his decision making if it is truly the case he is running an autocracy at headquarters. Somehow though I suspect much of this stuff is highly exaggerated.

 

[pinksheets]

Unfortunately it’s the same arguments over and over and over. Somehow worked into almost any thread. Tiresome.

Now lately with Wilson’s stated unhappiness Pete is the devil incarnate, can do nothing right, and is a drag on the team. We must choose between them. Give me a break.

I do think Pete needs to attempt to be more inclusive in his decision making if it is truly the case he is running an autocracy at headquarters. Somehow though I suspect much of this stuff is highly exaggerated.

Yeah, I've said if you have to choose between the two, you have to choose Russ, so maybe I've contributed to that hysteria, but there has been an epidemic of assumptions and hypotheticals quickly converting into "facts" that are now treated like a given here, namely as the team struggled.

Is Russ focusing too much on off the field stuff?
Quickly became
Russ IS spending more time on perfume than game prep

Does Pete not believe in Russ?
Became
Pete doesn't think Russ can play at a high level

And so on. A lot of people have stopped knowing what they don't know, have become entrenched in their created narratives, and in some cases, have gotten into bitter disputes here where you can't tell if they'd rather be right above all else, even at the detriment of the team.

It's exhausting.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Pete has been a winning coach everywhere he has coached. He may be old but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have his team win games. I know he hates to lose and was apparently upset the way the team lost against LA in the WC game. To say he's incompetent is really out there and unrelated to the reality of W/L ratios.

Its not that he was upset with how they lost, its the fact that he didnt understand how they lost that bothers me. The Hawks couldnt have gotten the Rams at a better time with a backup QB and then the starter playing with 4 fingers along with Donald not at 100% and they got thumped. They got beat because they just recently played and Carroll came in with the same gameplan and the Rams didnt. The Rams were able to predict what was coming because they just saw the same thing a couple weeks before. Thats what scares me about Pete Carroll. He didnt change anything up and was dumbfounded as to how and why they lost. Thats not what you want from your head coach.

 

[John63]

Pete has been a winning coach everywhere he has coached. He may be old but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have his team win games. I know he hates to lose and was apparently upset the way the team lost against LA in the WC game. To say he's incompetent is really out there and unrelated to the reality of W/L ratios.

Its not that he was upset with how they lost, its the fact that he didnt understand how they lost that bothers me. The Hawks couldnt have gotten the Rams at a better time with a backup QB and then the starter playing with 4 fingers along with Donald not at 100% and they got thumped. They got beat because they just recently played and Carroll came in with the same gameplan and the Rams didnt. The Rams were able to predict what was coming because they just saw the same thing a couple weeks before. Thats what scares me about Pete Carroll. He didnt change anything up and was dumbfounded as to how and why they lost. Thats not what you want from your head coach.

So lets look at Carroll's record

Jets 6-10
NE year 1 10-6
NE year 2 9-7
NE year 3 8-8

So jets bad, NE was 11-6 the year before Carroll and steadily got worse under Carroll

Seattle
7-9
7-9

neither winning records

Then he got Wilson, and we have been 9-7 or better every year. But how much is Carroll? that is the question.

The problem I have with Carroll is his unwillingness to do what good coaches do, game plan every game, make adjustments and play to the strengths of the players you have.