Is this Pete's Best Coaching Performance?

[MontanaHawk05]

I said Russ is the #1 reason for our 2019 record and I think 2015 was better.

I have never understood this "QB has bailed out the head coach" logic on ANY team. No head coach gets the look or mismatch he wants on every offensive play. None of them. If you want to go anywhere as an NFL quarterback, you will have to be able to improvise on at least some plays.

Wilson has the reputation of a greater improviser because his improvisations are more dramatic (i.e. running around like a chicken with his head cut off).

It's an illusion. Every QB is doing this - just without running - and it's just that most fans wouldn't recognize an improvisation from the pocket if it bit them on the ass. You know those epic 3rd down plays where the QB stands for five seconds and eventually slings it to someone? That was an improvisation. Anything after three seconds was probably improvisation. Every QB has done it; they just do it from the pocket more often and make it look intentional. I guarantee that a lot of the NFL's most dramatic plays were total deviations from what the OC called.

Now throw in announcers' annoying habit of going "Russ is running for his life" when he leaves the pocket without being pressured, and yeah, you get the illusion that Wilson is bailing Pete and Schotty out. The truth is, he probably isn't bailing his coach out THAT much more than most coaches do. I admit Pete's strength has never been clock management. But there are a lot of elements contributing to the impression fans have (that Pete couldn't gameplan his way out of a paper bag while Russ is defeating his incompetence every other play) that don't actually say that at all. If Pete were as klutzy as most people believe, we just wouldn't be on our 7th divisional-round appearance.

Also, 2015 wasn't better. It was a win less than 2019.

 

[justafan]

Great subject. I think he did an amazing job this year. People dont appreciate the winning culture he built. They focus on the faults.
Wilson was better than any QB we faced, but I rarely saw a roster of an opposing team and thought we were so much better. He usually has his team up up for teams that I do think have more talent. Every great coach and team have upsets its aggravating but it happens.

 

[Seymour]

Forget all that ^^^^^^^^ and remember that we were coming off the most devastating SB loss in history!

Look at other SB losers for what to expect from that type of a loss and that is where I say we beat all odds.
And also finally turning Russ lose was actually a pleasure to watch a game for the better part of the year. :2thumbs:

Your points on the ending I agree with, but I'm looking at the bigger picture for that entire season personally.

 

[Hawkstorian]

Clock management is on the players as much as it is on the coaching staff. People get on Pete about delay of game penalties, but those fall squarely on Russ and the rest of the offense. It’s his job to watch the play clock as QB.

I agree the players are accountable -- but it's the coaches job to hold them accountable and as a fan I hold the coach responsible. Errors like this have nothing to do with talent it's all situational awareness which is why it's so frustrating. I'm literally sitting in my seat in section 335 screaming THE %$^#$ CLOCK IS RUNNING!!

 

[Seymour]

I said Russ is the #1 reason for our 2019 record and I think 2015 was better.

I have never understood this "QB has bailed out the head coach" logic on ANY team. No head coach gets the look or mismatch he wants on every offensive play. None of them. If you want to go anywhere as an NFL quarterback, you will have to be able to improvise on at least some plays.

Wilson has the reputation of a greater improviser because his improvisations are more dramatic (i.e. running around like a chicken with his head cut off).

It's an illusion. Every QB is doing this - just without running - and it's just that most fans wouldn't recognize an improvisation from the pocket if it bit them on the ass. You know those epic 3rd down plays where the QB stands for five seconds and eventually slings it to someone? That was an improvisation. Anything after three seconds was probably improvisation. Every QB has done it; they just do it from the pocket more often and make it look intentional. I guarantee that a lot of the NFL's most dramatic plays were total deviations from what the OC called.

Now throw in announcers' annoying habit of going "Russ is running for his life" when he leaves the pocket without being pressured, and yeah, you get the illusion that Wilson is bailing Pete and Schotty out. The truth is, he probably isn't bailing his coach out THAT much more than most coaches do. I admit Pete's strength has never been clock management. But there are a lot of elements contributing to the impression fans have (that Pete couldn't gameplan his way out of a paper bag while Russ is defeating his incompetence every other play) that don't actually say that at all. If Pete were as klutzy as most people believe, we just wouldn't be on our 7th divisional-round appearance.

Also, 2015 wasn't better. It was a win less than 2019.

No illusion.

Name another QB that can win under that kinda of pass rush year after year! :177692:

You should watch and compare our pass rush the oline puts on our QB compared to other top QB's sometime. Wilson pays the price and bails out Pete and his inability to put competent pass protection together year after year. ukeface:

 

[Spin Doctor]

I said Russ is the #1 reason for our 2019 record and I think 2015 was better.

I have never understood this "QB has bailed out the head coach" logic on ANY team. No head coach gets the look or mismatch he wants on every offensive play. None of them. If you want to go anywhere as an NFL quarterback, you will have to be able to improvise on at least some plays.

Wilson has the reputation of a greater improviser because his improvisations are more dramatic (i.e. running around like a chicken with his head cut off).

It's an illusion. Every QB is doing this - just without running - and it's just that most fans wouldn't recognize an improvisation from the pocket if it bit them on the ass. You know those epic 3rd down plays where the QB stands for five seconds and eventually slings it to someone? That was an improvisation. Anything after three seconds was probably improvisation. Every QB has done it; they just do it from the pocket more often and make it look intentional. I guarantee that a lot of the NFL's most dramatic plays were total deviations from what the OC called.

Now throw in announcers' annoying habit of going "Russ is running for his life" when he leaves the pocket without being pressured, and yeah, you get the illusion that Wilson is bailing Pete and Schotty out. The truth is, he probably isn't bailing his coach out THAT much more than most coaches do. I admit Pete's strength has never been clock management. But there are a lot of elements contributing to the impression fans have (that Pete couldn't gameplan his way out of a paper bag while Russ is defeating his incompetence every other play) that don't actually say that at all. If Pete were as klutzy as most people believe, we just wouldn't be on our 7th divisional-round appearance.

Also, 2015 wasn't better. It was a win less than 2019.

No illusion.

Name another QB that can win under that kinda of pass rush year after year! :177692:

You should watch and compare our pass rush the oline puts on our QB compared to other top QB's sometime. Wilson pays the price and bails out Pete and his inability to put competent pass protection together year after year. ukeface:

Offensive line isn't even the biggest problem, it's the scheme. If you're running deep crossing routes it takes time for the play to develop. Russell Wilson has consistently held onto the ball longer than any QB in the NFL. There have been some years where we changed that up, see 2015 and the beginning of this season and all of the sudden Russell Wilson has the ball for less time, and his numbers go up. Short routes are vital to most NFL offenses, yet there are times where we decide to abandon them all together. Those short timing routes can also be used to set up the run. If you're able to spread the defense out, it is harder for them to stack the box. When teams cheat up that is when you hit them with a deep bomb. We keep going away from what works with our offense, I don't think playing rope-a-dope and relying on improvisation to slam a long pass is a sound offensive philosophy.

Excuse my language but we're skipping the foreplay and going in dry. That is not a smart offensive philosophy.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

I said Russ is the #1 reason for our 2019 record and I think 2015 was better.

I have never understood this "QB has bailed out the head coach" logic on ANY team. No head coach gets the look or mismatch he wants on every offensive play. None of them. If you want to go anywhere as an NFL quarterback, you will have to be able to improvise on at least some plays.

Wilson has the reputation of a greater improviser because his improvisations are more dramatic (i.e. running around like a chicken with his head cut off).

It's an illusion. Every QB is doing this - just without running - and it's just that most fans wouldn't recognize an improvisation from the pocket if it bit them on the ass. You know those epic 3rd down plays where the QB stands for five seconds and eventually slings it to someone? That was an improvisation. Anything after three seconds was probably improvisation. Every QB has done it; they just do it from the pocket more often and make it look intentional. I guarantee that a lot of the NFL's most dramatic plays were total deviations from what the OC called.

Now throw in announcers' annoying habit of going "Russ is running for his life" when he leaves the pocket without being pressured, and yeah, you get the illusion that Wilson is bailing Pete and Schotty out. The truth is, he probably isn't bailing his coach out THAT much more than most coaches do. I admit Pete's strength has never been clock management. But there are a lot of elements contributing to the impression fans have (that Pete couldn't gameplan his way out of a paper bag while Russ is defeating his incompetence every other play) that don't actually say that at all. If Pete were as klutzy as most people believe, we just wouldn't be on our 7th divisional-round appearance.

Also, 2015 wasn't better. It was a win less than 2019.

No illusion.

Name another QB that can win under that kinda of pass rush year after year! :177692:

You should watch and compare our pass rush the oline puts on our QB compared to other top QB's sometime. Wilson pays the price and bails out Pete and his inability to put competent pass protection together year after year. ukeface:

Offensive line isn't even the biggest problem, it's the scheme. If you're running deep crossing routes it takes time for the play to develop. Russell Wilson has consistently held onto the ball longer than any QB in the NFL. There have been some years where we changed that up, see 2015 and the beginning of this season and all of the sudden Russell Wilson has the ball for less time, and his numbers go up. Short routes are vital to most NFL offenses, yet there are times where we decide to abandon them all together. Those short timing routes can also be used to set up the run. If you're able to spread the defense out, it is harder for them to stack the box. When teams cheat up that is when you hit them with a deep bomb. We keep going away from what works with our offense, I don't think playing rope-a-dope and relying on improvisation to slam a long pass is a sound offensive philosophy.

Excuse my language but we're skipping the foreplay and going in dry. That is not a smart offensive philosophy.

These are questions of scheme, not incompetence. If Wilson improvising is an intentional quality that Pete picked out on purpose, then Wilson isn't bailing him out - he's bailed himself out, with a great QB pick.

And no, "but he didn't pick him until the third round" or "John deserves all the credit for Wilson" will not be entertained here. Not unless you want to look like you're grinding an axe. The draft card doesn't get submitted without Pete's ok, and Pete had every prerogative to act on reservations about Wilson's unorthodox profile.

As far as incompetent offensive linemen, Pete fired the coach responsible.

 

[Fade]

I am not here to piss in anyone's cheerios, but I am going to have to inject some reality into this thread.

2010 was his best coaching performance. When he brought real innovations to the league, and had a team playing way over it's head to upset the defending Superbowl Champion Saints in the playoffs.

His innovations were playing big corners, when everyone was drafting 5-11'' corners with sprinter's speed. Pete was going after big corners who weren't as fast, but where physical, and could contest big WR's. Also in the secondary he went big at SS, when the league was going with smaller safeties that could cover. Pete drafted a guy that looked like Lawrence Taylor to play SS. Teams around the league also laughed at the Seahawks for extending Kam, and making him the 2nd highest paid SS in the league back in 2013. They weren't laughing by 2015. At that point every team was looking for a Kam. Eventually the league caught up to what the Seahawks were doing and implemented it into their bag of tricks.


Wilson is carrying dead bodies over the finish line right now.

They are, and have been bad on defense, bad on special teams, bad on the O-Line, getting out-schemed most games, falling behind in analytics. Even the dinosaur, Mike McCarthy, is hiring a 14 man analytics team to bring with him to Dallas.

2 missed 40 yard FGs away from being 1-5 in the Division. Where Pete was thoroughly out coached in divisional games. Bumbled it on the 1 yard line once again, costing the franchise a division title.

I am thankful for some of the lucky bounces they have had this season to give them an inflated record, and Wilson showing once again he can put the franchise on his back, but Pete needs to be better. Build a defense, get his QB an O-Line, understand what to do in short yardage situations in enemy territory, figure out how to play Sean McVay's offense, etc, etc. or they are going to spoil their best chance at winning a Super Bowl with a Franchise QB in his prime in the upcoming years.

So as they ran their little RB, right behind little Joey Hunt, going against Fletcher Cox, for loss after loss. Thus forcing Wilson to consistently make magic happen, converting 2nd and longs, 3rd and longs, all game long, which are crazy hard to convert btw, on scramble plays none the less, what ran through y'alls head was, that's great coaching? ...Interesting.

I will give him credit though, as he learned from last year's playoff debacle, losing to Jason Garrett, and let Russ cook.

Wilson is carrying dead bodies over the finish line, and am wondering if he could actually carry them to the NFC championship. That is some John Elway ish right there, back when he had no help.

2010 was Pete's best coaching performance and it really isn't close. He brought innovations to the game that forced other teams to copy. And took Tim Ruskell players to the playoffs, and upset the double digit favored Saints.

 

[olyfan63]

# neverforget The lean years.

THIS.

Remember when Kelly Stouffer was going to be the savior, our franchise QB?
Then it was 1st round pick Dan McGwire who was going to be the QB to save us.
And then it was Stan Gelbaugh actually playing.

We had the Great Chuck Knox for a few good years. Then he was gone, but it was OK, because before long, we got a Super-Bowl winning coach, Tom Flores, running the team now, for sure he can lead the Seahawks to the Promised Land.
Nope. It was beat-down after beat-down after humiliating loss in the Tom Flores years, then Ken Behring packed up the Seahawks to move the team to California. Paul Allen saved the team from that.

The Holmgren years were pretty good overall, but really tailed off near the end, I think Holmgren's last year was 4-12. While I won't say the team quit on Holgrem that last 4-12 season, something was very dysfunctional and it was sure hard to watch. Maybe it was all the "high-character" but "low-talent" players Ruskell saddled Holmgren with. I'd blamed Holmgren for the SBXL loss, for having zero depth at strong safety, and putting man-off-the-street Etric Pruitt out there after Marquand Manuel got injured in the second quarter. Now I realize it was as much or more on Tim Ruskell. IIRC, the Seahawks, have TWO coaches that have a road playoff win to their credit, Knox and Carroll. (not Holmgren)

Pete Carroll is easily the best coach the Seahawks have ever had. Let's appreciate him while we still have him!

And yes, this season has been one of Carroll's best coaching performances. And one of Scheider's top GM performances. Clowney, Diggs trades, drafting DK. Sometimes it's hard to evaluate a single year, because it's the overall longer-range plan that resulted in the improvement of the team, involving tasks like jettisoning high-priced or divisive, underperforming players. Pete and John re-shaped the roster the last couple seasons, and it looks like it will get even better from here.

 

[IndyHawk]

12-5, yet another season with a playoff win, 2 wins from the Super Bowl...…...again.
Do you Pete, you might drive us nuts, but you're still one hell of a coach.

Totally on the money post..
PC is unlike any HC you'll ever see..It's insane but it works a lot.

 

[AgentDib]

So as they ran their little RB, right behind little Joey Hunt, going against Fletcher Cox, for loss after loss.

Not to pick on you here Fade but I've seen different forms of this comment several times. It certainly captures the feeling of our run game struggling but I don't think it reflects reality. If you're going to use that as a basis for your opinion on the coaching staff then it warrants more consideration.

I had Homer charted for 13 touches with the following notes.

1. 2nd and 1. Fletcher Cox lines up between Ifedi and Fluker in the B gap. Homer is heading for the left A gap, but Cox beats Ifedi inside so quickly crosses the formation to tackle Homer in the backfield.

2. 1st and 10. Homer runs to the right but sees Ifedi getting beat and cuts it back inside on his own, tackled by the CB after 2 yards.

3. 1st and 10. Homer gets a toss to the left and turns the corner around the outside, tackled by the CB after 12 yards.

4. 1st and 10. Fletcher Cox lines up between Ifedi and Fluker in the B gap. Cox throws Fluker to the ground! and comes back to tackle Homer while he was heading for the right A gap.

5. 2nd and 2. Double CB run blitz, neither is picked up (Hollister and nobody). CBs sandwich Homer in the backfield. Cox is blocked relatively well by Hunt on the play.

6. 1st and 10. Check down pass to Homer nullified by holding penalty from Fluker (holding Cox).

7. 1st and 20. Cox lines up in right A gap, Homer heads for the left A gap and is tackled by the completely unblocked right DE who was lined up wide and not picked up. Fundamental screw up here somewhere.

8. 2nd and 19. Quick pass right to Homer who gets tackled by the first eagles CB on the scene.

9. 2nd and 6. Homer runs through the left C gap but Hollister is unable to block the DE who makes the tackle.

10. 1st and 10. Toss to Homer who runs to the left out of bounds losing a yard.

11. 2nd and 15. Jones and Fant are pulling to the right B gap but Jones trips and falls. Fant is slow to the point of attack and by the time Homer gets there he is gang tackled by three Eagles (including Cox).

12. 2nd and 9. One of Homer's few runs up the middle. This one is blocked pretty well but Homer is immediately tackled by the Mike one on one.

13. 1st and 10. Toss to Homer towards the left sideline, he gets swarmed by Eagles but they knew it was going to be a run due to game situation (running out clock).

Cox had a really dominant game but was often lined up in the B gap. Hunt did a pretty nice job on most of these plays. The Hawks also did a lot to get Homer touches in different ways and to different parts of the field. Homer looked like a rookie and wasn't able to make anybody miss in the open field, but it was a small sample size against an excellent run defense.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

2010 was Pete's best coaching performance and it really isn't close. He brought innovations to the game that forced other teams to copy. And took Tim Ruskell players to the playoffs, and upset the double digit favored Saints.

I could argue that using the same innovation and philosophy to turn over a roster the second time was a much harder coaching performance then the first time.

Much harder to jettison some VERY popular players, get the cap right and turn the roster over for a second time...................... all the while winning and working your ass off to sell your style and philosophy to a entire new group of players and coaches, and here we are once again knocking on the door of another NFC Championship game.

Both are hard, and both are admirable. But IMO the sustaining and repeating is much harder.

 

[Seymour]

I am not here to piss in anyone's cheerios, but I am going to have to inject some reality into this thread.

2010 was his best coaching performance. When he brought real innovations to the league, and had a team playing way over it's head to upset the defending Superbowl Champion Saints in the playoffs.

His innovations were playing big corners, when everyone was drafting 5-11'' corners with sprinter's speed. Pete was going after big corners who weren't as fast, but where physical, and could contest big WR's. Also in the secondary he went big at SS, when the league was going with smaller safeties that could cover. Pete drafted a guy that looked like Lawrence Taylor to play SS. Teams around the league also laughed at the Seahawks for extending Kam, and making him the 2nd highest paid SS in the league back in 2013. They weren't laughing by 2015. At that point every team was looking for a Kam. Eventually the league caught up to what the Seahawks were doing and implemented it into their bag of tricks.


Wilson is carrying dead bodies over the finish line right now.

They are, and have been bad on defense, bad on special teams, bad on the O-Line, getting out-schemed most games, falling behind in analytics. Even the dinosaur, Mike McCarthy, is hiring a 14 man analytics team to bring with him to Dallas.

2 missed 40 yard FGs away from being 1-5 in the Division. Where Pete was thoroughly out coached in divisional games. Bumbled it on the 1 yard line once again, costing the franchise a division title.

I am thankful for some of the lucky bounces they have had this season to give them an inflated record, and Wilson showing once again he can put the franchise on his back, but Pete needs to be better. Build a defense, get his QB an O-Line, understand what to do in short yardage situations in enemy territory, figure out how to play Sean McVay's offense, etc, etc. or they are going to spoil their best chance at winning a Super Bowl with a Franchise QB in his prime in the upcoming years.

So as they ran their little RB, right behind little Joey Hunt, going against Fletcher Cox, for loss after loss. Thus forcing Wilson to consistently make magic happen, converting 2nd and longs, 3rd and longs, all game long, which are crazy hard to convert btw, on scramble plays none the less, what ran through y'alls head was, that's great coaching? ...Interesting.

I will give him credit though, as he learned from last year's playoff debacle, losing to Jason Garrett, and let Russ cook.

Wilson is carrying dead bodies over the finish line, and am wondering if he could actually carry them to the NFC championship. That is some John Elway ish right there, back when he had no help.

2010 was Pete's best coaching performance and it really isn't close. He brought innovations to the game that forced other teams to copy. And took Tim Ruskell players to the playoffs, and upset the double digit favored Saints.

Great post and thank you for the voice of reason! :irishdrinkers:

 

[Fade]

So as they ran their little RB, right behind little Joey Hunt, going against Fletcher Cox, for loss after loss.

Not to pick on you here Fade but I've seen different forms of this comment several times. It certainly captures the feeling of our run game struggling but I don't think it reflects reality. If you're going to use that as a basis for your opinion on the coaching staff then it warrants more consideration.

I had Homer charted for 13 touches with the following notes.

1. 2nd and 1. Fletcher Cox lines up between Ifedi and Fluker in the B gap. Homer is heading for the left A gap, but Cox beats Ifedi inside so quickly crosses the formation to tackle Homer in the backfield.

2. 1st and 10. Homer runs to the right but sees Ifedi getting beat and cuts it back inside on his own, tackled by the CB after 2 yards.

3. 1st and 10. Homer gets a toss to the left and turns the corner around the outside, tackled by the CB after 12 yards.

4. 1st and 10. Fletcher Cox lines up between Ifedi and Fluker in the B gap. Cox throws Fluker to the ground! and comes back to tackle Homer while he was heading for the right A gap.

5. 2nd and 2. Double CB run blitz, neither is picked up (Hollister and nobody). CBs sandwich Homer in the backfield. Cox is blocked relatively well by Hunt on the play.

6. 1st and 10. Check down pass to Homer nullified by holding penalty from Fluker (holding Cox).

7. 1st and 20. Cox lines up in right A gap, Homer heads for the left A gap and is tackled by the completely unblocked right DE who was lined up wide and not picked up. Fundamental screw up here somewhere.

8. 2nd and 19. Quick pass right to Homer who gets tackled by the first eagles CB on the scene.

9. 2nd and 6. Homer runs through the left C gap but Hollister is unable to block the DE who makes the tackle.

10. 1st and 10. Toss to Homer who runs to the left out of bounds losing a yard.

11. 2nd and 15. Jones and Fant are pulling to the right B gap but Jones trips and falls. Fant is slow to the point of attack and by the time Homer gets there he is gang tackled by three Eagles (including Cox).

12. 2nd and 9. One of Homer's few runs up the middle. This one is blocked pretty well but Homer is immediately tackled by the Mike one on one.

13. 1st and 10. Toss to Homer towards the left sideline, he gets swarmed by Eagles but they knew it was going to be a run due to game situation (running out clock).

Cox had a really dominant game but was often lined up in the B gap. Hunt did a pretty nice job on most of these plays. The Hawks also did a lot to get Homer touches in different ways and to different parts of the field. Homer looked like a rookie and wasn't able to make anybody miss in the open field, but it was a small sample size against an excellent run defense.

Pick on me? :lol:

17 carries, 18 yards from the RBs. The numbers speak for themselves. Fletcher Cox had a huge impact on that, if you do not possess the football acumen to recognize that, then their is nothing I can do to help you.

Good thing Wilson was there to pick up the slack.

[youtube]TtFTH2iPJsk[/youtube]
"Russell Wilson makes chicken salad out of gas station jerky, more than any other QB." -Dan Orlovsky

Starts at the 4 min mark. Orlovsky with a nice breakdown.

 

[ivotuk]

710 ESPN Seattle coincidentally asked the following question this afternoon:

TOM, JAKE AND STACY -- January 9, 2020 - Hour 3

Has 2019 been Pete Carroll's best coaching job? Tom, Jake, and Stacy take a look to open up the third hour.

https://sports.mynorthwest.com/category ... +and+Stacy