Metcalf Calls Out Carroll

[Scorpion05]

If it is as the anti-Pete posters suggest, there would be no reason at all to have routes in those areas, but there are. The players are open and it is Wilson who is not throwing to them. They may be the third, fourth and fifth read, but a nine year future hall of fame quarterback has to take those open receivers. The supposition that Russell Wilson is so enamored with Pete that he will not throw to these open receivers because Pete is telling him not to is ridiculous.

Respectfully, I don't think you're trying to hear the point being made.

This isn't about being anti-Pete. I love Pete. I'm also explaining why our offense runs the way it does.

Schotty ran an Air Coryell offense. The goal of that offense is to have two receivers deep, combined with a running threat. That doesn't mean there won't be any short routes in the route tree, that would be silly for any offense. But the Quarterback is given the chance to analyze the offense and either switch to a run play, or go with the pass. The offense is heavy on pre-snap looks, which is also why defenses often switched their looks after the snap.

Again, you are bashing Russ for not choosing to pass short when the offense literally predicates the ORDER of his reads. Field Gulls, plenty of analysts have covered this and yet this is ignored to push basic narratives. Pete does not want a dink and dunk offense. If anything, the (moderated) West Coast offense under Bevell was more suitable for that.

 

[KinesProf]

Ultimately, offenses and defenses are constantly needing to evolve.

The bright side is that when you have the talent, will and intelligence of Russ nothing is too far gone. Similarly with Aaron Rodgers, who had a few down years and looked to be declining, new offensive coaching had a major impact and helped him back to MVP form; I believe the same can happen for Russ.

I'm cautiously encouraged by the duration of this OC search. If Pete had been stubborn he'd have one of his guys in place or a run first guy like Lynn. Instead it's been a pretty system diverse list of runored candidates to this point. Again, cautiously optimistic.

 

[Scorpion05]

Fixed it for you. For Pete, the run game was always a replacement for the short passing game. He even said in his press conferences, that we have to run teams out of two-deep looks.

Pete has literally given you all every hint and clue in the book how he wants the offense run, how he wants Wilson's reads to be and you're all expecting this methodical, Josh McDaniel like offense. It's bizarre.

If it is as the anti-Pete posters suggest, there would be no reason at all to have routes in those areas, but there are. The players are open and it is Wilson who is not throwing to them. They may be the third, fourth and fifth read, but a nine year future hall of fame quarterback has to take those open receivers. The supposition that Russell Wilson is so enamored with Pete that he will not throw to these open receivers because Pete is telling him not to is ridiculous.

It's beyond ridiculous. As much as posters want to immediately correlate rushing with losing, it just isn't the case - and if Russ continues to look off anything below the intermediate range, the rushing game is the ONLY remaining option to keep the chains moving somewhat reliably.

It'll be interesting to see what the new OC draws up.

And yet not QB since PC arrival has throw short alot. None. So either all 3 of them are ignoring short routes or someone is telling them to. Also all 3 Qbs either in college or under other coaches have shown they can and do throw short.

1st Read - Deep Route
2nd Read - Deep Route
3rd Read - Intermediate route (pass rush getting past the average/poor O-line by this point)
4th Read - Intermediate or short route (pass rush in Wilson's face)

Fans: "Why is Russ not taking the short throws immediately it makes no sense!!"

We have called game plans with quick hitting plays. We did it against the Niners defense last year and the Steelers defense. That was possible, in part because the secondary for those defenses could be exposed. No one is saying RW doesn't miss reads/throws. But this cognitive dissonance some are showing here on how the Air Coryell offense works, and how our offense works is silly. The big play is critical to Pete's offense. It's what Pete thrives on.

The problem is, Pete only sees big plays as bombs over the top. Not 50 yard WR reverses and screens. He's not creative enough for that.

 

[BASF]

If it is as the anti-Pete posters suggest, there would be no reason at all to have routes in those areas, but there are. The players are open and it is Wilson who is not throwing to them. They may be the third, fourth and fifth read, but a nine year future hall of fame quarterback has to take those open receivers. The supposition that Russell Wilson is so enamored with Pete that he will not throw to these open receivers because Pete is telling him not to is ridiculous.

Respectfully, I don't think you're trying to hear the point being made.

This isn't about being anti-Pete. I love Pete. I'm also explaining why our offense runs the way it does.

Schotty ran an Air Coryell offense. The goal of that offense is to have two receivers deep, combined with a running threat. That doesn't mean there won't be any short routes in the route tree, that would be silly for any offense. But the Quarterback is given the chance to analyze the offense and either switch to a run play, or go with the pass. The offense is heavy on pre-snap looks, which is also why defenses often switched their looks after the snap.

Again, you are bashing Russ for not choosing to pass short when the offense literally predicates the ORDER of his reads. Field Gulls, plenty of analysts have covered this and yet this is ignored to push basic narratives. Pete does not want a dink and dunk offense. If anything, the (moderated) West Coast offense under Bevell was more suitable for that.

You and I are saying the exact same thing, however, I am putting at Wilson's feet that the third, fourth and fifth reads (as stated in the post you quoted) are not being thrown to when they are in fact open. Either he is not going through his progressions as any year nine QB (let alone a future HoFer) should do or he is foregoing those routes for the deeper shots even if they are well defended to the point of holding the ball too long and creating sacks.

 

[AgentDib]

The editorialized thread title is misleading. Metcalf is just stating the obvious; teams playing cover 2 against us would have been something previous Hawks would have salivated over, and yet we couldn't take advantage of that this year for a long list of reasons.

Carroll has an issue with taking unnecessary risks with the football, just like most good head coaches. Some of his big picture preferences can be debatable; avoiding 3rd down arm punts, avoiding throwing intermediate receivers open, avoiding throwing 50/50 jump balls and what not. However, the idea that he is tinkering with the X's and O's in the offensive playbook or telling Russ not to throw short passes is just silly.

 

[Maelstrom787]

If it is as the anti-Pete posters suggest, there would be no reason at all to have routes in those areas, but there are. The players are open and it is Wilson who is not throwing to them. They may be the third, fourth and fifth read, but a nine year future hall of fame quarterback has to take those open receivers. The supposition that Russell Wilson is so enamored with Pete that he will not throw to these open receivers because Pete is telling him not to is ridiculous.

Respectfully, I don't think you're trying to hear the point being made.

This isn't about being anti-Pete. I love Pete. I'm also explaining why our offense runs the way it does.

Schotty ran an Air Coryell offense. The goal of that offense is to have two receivers deep, combined with a running threat. That doesn't mean there won't be any short routes in the route tree, that would be silly for any offense. But the Quarterback is given the chance to analyze the offense and either switch to a run play, or go with the pass. The offense is heavy on pre-snap looks, which is also why defenses often switched their looks after the snap.

Again, you are bashing Russ for not choosing to pass short when the offense literally predicates the ORDER of his reads. Field Gulls, plenty of analysts have covered this and yet this is ignored to push basic narratives. Pete does not want a dink and dunk offense. If anything, the (moderated) West Coast offense under Bevell was more suitable for that.

You and I are saying the exact same thing, however, I am putting at Wilson's feet that the third, fourth and fifth reads (as stated in the post you quoted) are not being thrown to when they are in fact open. Either he is not going through his progressions as any year nine QB (let alone a future HoFer) should do or he is foregoing those routes for the deeper shots even if they are well defended to the point of holding the ball too long and creating sacks.

Not only that, but he was missing some of his primary deep reads, too. DK was at least 60/40 open several times on a specific long fade concept that Schotty was calling where he'd get between the corner and the cloud safety. Russ didn't take it until garbage time. I think it's fair to say that something was fundamentally off with Russ as the season closed, just as there was something fundamentally wrong in the defensive backfields communication in the first half of the season. He was gun-shy, for one reason or another, and if he's not going to take those small windows deep like he has, then he has to be more open to considering those secondary and tertiary outlets. Otherwise, you get what we saw - trouble sustaining drives, holding the ball until pressure arrives, and generally disjointed play.

 

[TraderGary]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/25/dk-metcalf-on-seattles-offensive-struggles-teams-just-started-to-figure-us-out/

“Teams just started to figure us out,” Metcalf told former NFL receiver Brandon Marshall on the I Am Athlete podcast. “We’ve been running deep pass, ever since Pete [Carroll] got there. Play-action. Run the ball, run the ball, run the ball, go deep. Teams just said, ‘We’re just not gonna let you all go deep.'”

Metcalf’s remarks suggest two things. First, he’s passing along a narrative he heard from someone whose presence on the team predates his. The 2019 second-round pick has picked up that characterization from one or more other Seahawks players, possibly including quarterback Russell Wilson. Second, it reflects an implicit frustration regarding the inability of the offense to counter the steps taken by the defense to neutralize an attack.

Metcalf, and presumably others on the team’s offense, believe things have been too simple, too easy to figure out, too unimaginative when it comes to getting the ball in the hands of playmakers, like Metcalf. And they’re not putting it on the offensive coordinator; they’re pointing a finger in the general direction of the head coach.

I think this is spot on.

 

[John63]

I like that he has a good perspective on things.

It still absolutely boggles my mind that cover 2 shut this offense down.

They couldn't adjust to teams playing 2 deep safeties?

High School coaches can make IN GAME adjustments to cover 2 defense. These guys couldn't figure it out over a several month period?

Which is exactly why Russell Wilson got Brian Schottenheimer fired. Plays were called that had short and intermediate routes open, but Wilson did not take them. He was almost always looking to go deep against cover two.

Hm so you have proof Wilson got Schotty fired? Or is this more of the made up Wilson hating crap. Goodbye

 

[A_Biased_Fan]

Thank you DK, it needed to be said!

Big time lack of creativity from this offensive system once teams just started playing two high safety's. I was yelling at the tv the whole second of the year, where are the bootlegs, the quick crossers and natural pick plays. And where were the outlets on 3rd and long. Sometimes you just need an outlet and let a guy try and break some tackles. We have the talent on that side of the ball, that's undeniable. We need a young, fresh offensive mind to give Russ a reset. It happened in GB, Rodgers stats and overall play had been declining for several years. But then he gets a new up-to-date system, and he's back to MVP form in year 2.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I don't really know what DK is getting at here. There were tons of short and intermediate options called that were left unthrown. The rushing split wasn't outrageously high by any means, either. Only tenth highest # of play action plays called, and the top-10 is full of good offenses. Surely, DK isn't criticizing going deep, seeing as that's basically the reason he's a star?

In before the predictable overreactions come in, I guess.

This has been explained ad-nauseam by NFL analysts, including Sam Gold.

Russ' reads are to go long first, then short. Team has never been a dink and dunk coach. You're asking the offense to do something it has only done under Carrol when Wilson is injured.

Also, Schotty's formation was extremely predictable and easy to defend. Teams could double DK and shift most of the defense towards the other side in the shotgun trips formation. DK's point is we threatened with the run, and prioritized throwing it deep. We played as if DK and Russ could dominate defenses with the deep ball no matter what. That simply didn't happen against better defenses.

I'm not asking the offense to do anything in my post.

The offense being predicated on the deep ball is not a valid summary of DK's comment here, which includes "play action, run, run, run, go deep." That's not an accurate depiction of the offensive scheme ran in 2020. It'd fit better for the previous Seattle teams that ran heavy run splits.

If anything, DK is the one implying that the offense should be doing something else, not me. Regardless, the secondary and tertiary reads were largely there, and they were generally passed up. Even the primary reads with DK splitting into the window between the corner and top safety were passed up in the playoff game until garbage time.

That's probably largely on the offensive coordinator, who didn't adjust when the high-flying offense broke down, and didn't adjust very well when Russell wasn't executing.

 

[BASF]

Thank you DK, it needed to be said!

Big time lack of creativity from this offensive system once teams just started playing two high safety's. I was yelling at the tv the whole second of the year, where are the bootlegs, the quick crossers and natural pick plays. And where were the outlets on 3rd and long. Sometimes you just need an outlet and let a guy try and break some tackles. We have the talent on that side of the ball, that's undeniable. We need a young, fresh offensive mind to give Russ a reset. It happened in GB, Rodgers stats and overall play had been declining for several years. But then he gets a new up-to-date system, and he's back to MVP form in year 2.

Perceptions are always interesting. The thing that the Packers lacked in McCarthy's last two seasons were a running game and a willingness to use it to set up things. Looking at Rodgers numbers, the difference from LaFleur to McCarthy was not that great until this season when Jones averaged 5.5 ypc and his backups averaged 4.5 ypc. When your running backs are moving the chains you can throw anywhere at anytime and the defense is off balance.

https://www.packersnews.com/story/s...packers-offensive-emphasis-change/1445328001/

The fact that the Packers ran eighty times more in 2019 than 2018 and thirty more times than that in 2020 is what revitalized Rodgers career. The fact that McCarthy didn't use a stud like Jones when he averaged 5.5 in 2018 is what cost the Packers games and McCarthy's job, especially when keeping your poor defense off the field by controlling the clock more than just letting Rodgers carry the load seemed to be McCarthy's plan.

 

[John63]

Thank you DK, it needed to be said!

Big time lack of creativity from this offensive system once teams just started playing two high safety's. I was yelling at the tv the whole second of the year, where are the bootlegs, the quick crossers and natural pick plays. And where were the outlets on 3rd and long. Sometimes you just need an outlet and let a guy try and break some tackles. We have the talent on that side of the ball, that's undeniable. We need a young, fresh offensive mind to give Russ a reset. It happened in GB, Rodgers stats and overall play had been declining for several years. But then he gets a new up-to-date system, and he's back to MVP form in year 2.

Nuce post. And I agree, I only hope it happens.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Thank you DK, it needed to be said!

Big time lack of creativity from this offensive system once teams just started playing two high safety's. I was yelling at the tv the whole second of the year, where are the bootlegs, the quick crossers and natural pick plays. And where were the outlets on 3rd and long. Sometimes you just need an outlet and let a guy try and break some tackles. We have the talent on that side of the ball, that's undeniable. We need a young, fresh offensive mind to give Russ a reset. It happened in GB, Rodgers stats and overall play had been declining for several years. But then he gets a new up-to-date system, and he's back to MVP form in year 2.

Perceptions are always interesting. The thing that the Packers lacked in McCarthy's last two seasons were a running game and a willingness to use it to set up things. Looking at Rodgers numbers, the difference from LaFleur to McCarthy was not that great until this season when Jones averaged 5.5 ypc and his backups averaged 4.5 ypc. When your running backs are moving the chains you can throw anywhere at anytime and the defense is off balance.

https://www.packersnews.com/story/s...packers-offensive-emphasis-change/1445328001/

The fact that the Packers ran eighty times more in 2019 than 2018 and thirty more times than that in 2020 is what revitalized Rodgers career. The fact that McCarthy didn't use a stud like Jones when he averaged 5.5 in 2018 is what cost the Packers games and McCarthy's job, especially when keeping your poor defense off the field by controlling the clock more than just letting Rodgers carry the load seemed to be McCarthy's plan.

A big part of that revitalization was getting Rodgers to accept that. LaFleur's first season was spent trying to get Rodgers to trust the play calls more and take the yards the play produced as opposed to always trying to hold out for more.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Teams absolutely DID figure out the offense. And Pete and the coaching staff flat out refused to adjust.
But I'm sure people will somehow turn this in to some DK is a diva spin. Meh, he's right.

 

[jammerhawk]

[vimeo][/vimeo]Too predictable???

Really???

As others have asked here where were the answers? Why was it BS could simply NOT adjust? Where was the innovation?

Some here will blame Pete, wanting to run the ball, but with zero 100 yard/game rushers this last season you wonder if the real problem wasn’t that the opponents knew what the team was going to do and stuffed it.

Watching TE screens, and both Rogers and Brady use their TEs and their middle game, we get a clearer picture of what wasn’t happening in Schotty’s schemes. It clearly was time for a change.

Very much doubt Metcalf was calling Pete out.

 

[Hawaii-hawk]

Metcalf certainly simplified it about as much as it possibly could be but what he said is absolutely true:

1) offense wants to run and throw deep
2) teams were no longer letting us throw deep
3) we didn’t adjust/change anything
4) this is how it’s always been ever since Pete Carroll got here

^whats to argue about this? Even Pete Carroll agrees with this for crying out loud.

1)everyone on our team agrees with this including the head coach
2) literally only Pete Carroll defenders are saying it’s RW fault

3) the only difference in opinion on our team from what to do about this analysis is Pete and his supporters want to run more and look for the deep pass less. That’s literally the summation of their “adjustments”. And it’s an extraordinarily bad opinion given what we’ve seen and the results it’s produced. Pete defenders want to defend the results by quoting playoff appearances, and sure, Peteball, given our high quality of personnel, is good enough to get us wildcards and an occasional division title. But it is not good enough to meaningfully compete once we get there, as the results show, and if there is any drop off in our personnel talent level, or if we just have bad luck in how the ball bounces or a call is made, then this team won’t even sniff playoffs.

 

[iigakusei]

Coincidence that it was Brandon Marshall doing the interview? The same guy who said there is trouble brewing in Seattle? This is 100% Wilson calling out Pete through DK. The power struggle between Pete and RW is real, and I think there is a real possibility that 2021-22 is RW's last year in Seattle. What a shame.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Coincidence that it was Brandon Marshall doing the interview? The same guy who said there is trouble brewing in Seattle? This is 100% Wilson calling out Pete through DK. The power struggle between Pete and RW is real, and I think there is a real possibility that 2021-22 is RW's last year in Seattle. What a shame.

Marshall held Seattle with high praise all year, since the beginning of the season, actually, but Seattle failed to deliver.

I’m also disappointed like Marshall is.

It is what it is.

 

[John63]

Coincidence that it was Brandon Marshall doing the interview? The same guy who said there is trouble brewing in Seattle? This is 100% Wilson calling out Pete through DK. The power struggle between Pete and RW is real, and I think there is a real possibility that 2021-22 is RW's last year in Seattle. What a shame.

Of course you have no proof this is Wilson speaking through DK, Maybe its Lockett, Maybe it's the whole offense, maybe it's the whole team or maybe its just DK.

I do agree something will change, how soon not sure.

 

[NY Hawk]

That's just so embarrassing.