Mina Kimes ranks Pete Carroll at #10 among coaches

Sgt. Largent

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imagine what would happen here if Wilson leads the Broncos to a super bowl win?
some posters would have to be institutionalized for several years.

It'd mean Sean Payton did an amazing job reigning in Wilson's delusional ego, and got him back to playing like he did under.................wait for it.....................Pete Carroll.
 

Weadoption

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it could also mean he did an amazing job reigning in the ego while also providing a consistent running attack and better pass blocking. I could easily see him flourish if that happens, it’s a big if at this point and remains to be seen.
 

Sgt. Largent

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agree, there would be folks in total denial to protect their entire grip on what is real, what is not real.

What's real is Russell Wilson was a REALLY good QB under Pete Carroll. Hopefully he'll again be a good QB under another good coach.

No one's discounting Wilson's talent or accomplishments in this thread. Just Pete's.
 

SoulfishHawk

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agree, there would be folks in total denial to protect their entire grip on what is real, what is not real.
Trust me, it's not even worth it. I gave up on that subject several months ago. You would have better luck clapping with one hand.
And he's been gone for 16 months, the poor horse can't die any more than it already has. We won the trade by a landslide. Good enough.
 

pittpnthrs

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Bro, we lost that game because we abandoned the run and Russ played horribly. but dont take my word for it.



Russ was 11-27 with as many TDS thrown to the Rams as he had to the Seahawks. We couldnt move the ball through the air at all and refused to run. We made stupid mistakes that kept our offense off the field and gave the Rams, even with a hobbled QB situation, enough chances to win.

But your response is so consistent with the (pete failed) narrative over the years. You can only scheme so much to get an offense to work. Our O had to walk a fine line to operate with Russ. There wasnt the room to shift drastically because outside of the running game, there was little to shift to.

Again, dont take my word for it:


And the loss to the Bills that you mentioned. The game where Russ threw 4 picks, one to close the first half in the endzone?

Russ turned the ball over 4 times. The Bills scored on all 4. They threw the ball unexpectedly (what Pete mentioned) because we were down a CB when Q Dunbar's injured knee hobbled him and he was getting beat left and right. The Bills didnt have to run. Allen was moving the ball on his arm. SO you cant predict that youll turn the ball over 4 times, lose your starting CB and have to overcome 4 gimme scores.


I'm honestly not arguing with you as you have made good points. All i'm asking is to see some reasons why things happen. Why did Seattle abandon the run? Could it be because it wasnt working? If it was working, who is at fault for that call? Could that be due to the Rams adjusting their defense due to familiarity of the Hawks offense? Did Russ have a bad day because he was just off or could it have been that the Rams were ready and jumping familiar sets that they just saw a couple weeks before? Why did the defense allow Akers to run for 131 yards at a 4.7 yard per carry rate? Wilson was sacked 5 times. The Rams had the ball for 6 more minutes so the TOP wasnt drastically lopsided. 3rd down efficiency was awful for both teams. Seattle was 2-14 and the Rams were 3-15. Seattle had 9 penalties for 60 yards while the Rams had 2 for 15 yards.

All that being said, it sure seems McVay had his team much more prepared than Pete did.
 

SoulfishHawk

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What's real is Russell Wilson was a REALLY good QB under Pete Carroll. Hopefully he'll again be a good QB under another good coach.

No one's discounting Wilson's talent or accomplishments in this thread. Just Pete's.
Come on Sarge. People have been discounting him for years, not just after he was traded. Obsessed, and it's hilarious.
 

keasley45

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I'm honestly not arguing with you as you have made good points. All i'm asking is to see some reasons why things happen. Why did Seattle abandon the run? Could it be because it wasnt working? If it was working, who is at fault for that call? Could that be due to the Rams adjusting their defense due to familiarity of the Hawks offense? Did Russ have a bad day because he was just off or could it have been that the Rams were ready and jumping familiar sets that they just saw a couple weeks before? Why did the defense allow Akers to run for 131 yards at a 4.7 yard per carry rate? Wilson was sacked 5 times. The Rams had the ball for 6 more minutes so the TOP wasnt drastically lopsided. 3rd down efficiency was awful for both teams. Seattle was 2-14 and the Rams were 3-15. Seattle had 9 penalties for 60 yards while the Rams had 2 for 15 yards.

All that being said, it sure seems McVay had his team much more prepared than Pete did.

The question as to why plays weren't run or adjustments made is one of the most difficult issues to parse during Russ's time in Seattle. I've said this before in threads documenting perplexing missed reads by Russ. And the reason is this. If at the time, Schotty is looking at the flow of the game and sends in a play, say a dig by Willson on 1st and 10 with intent of going pass run and hopefully run on a 3rd and short if necessary and that play, which works exactly as it's supposed to, fails because although scheme wise, you called it right, caught the defense off guard and should be in 2nd and short, Russ misses the read , scrambles backwards and takes a sack for negative yards or misses deep, you are then off schedule, the play failed and you don't know whether to go back to it because the DC has now seen it or your qb didn't hit it the first time. Your run play is now gone, you're in 2nd and long, and you give the advantage to the defense. Do this on back to back possessions and the TOP is 2 to 1 in the opponents favor if you give up a 1stbdown or two. Struggle this was for 2 qtrs and your defense is now gassed and if they were already average, they are now squarely less than that and gambling on a big play.

Running more against a no1 defense like the Rams isn't run run run punt. When we did that against Dallas a few years before, everybody went apesh+t. It's trying to get an advantage on a superior opponent by hitting them when they don't expect it and gaining any advantage you can. So often, with Russ, the plays work but aren't successful. Sometimes he'd make something spectacular happen. But he'd also regularly get the offense into situations (and the OC) where you literally can't get into a rhythm. You don't know what will work or what won't, and you lose any semblance of surprise. Go back and watch the game and count hiw many 3rd and shorts, 1st downs and 3rd down conversions we literally left on the field. All we had to do was get thr ball into the receivers hands.

Rushing, we averaged 4 ypc that game not including Russ's numbers. Some say, oh, but we were stuffed on 3rd downs. Well, if you don't have a viable and varied way to attack a defense, (the number 1 unit in the league) has a pretty good chance of beating you in known, straight up situations. And if you consistently fail at passing on running downs, you've become incredibly predictable. How many running plays were changed? Don't know. But it happened for sure. Russ was famous for his alert calls. If in a running set, he saw a matchup he thought he could exploit, he'd audible to it. On known running downs, with a rush called, if we are constantly alerting to a big hitter that doesn't hit when we could run, your run pass balance gets screwed, as does you ability to adjust. Especially when you consistently fail and get behind on the scoreboard.

Folks also have said that in this game and others where Russ performed poorly, that protection was an issue. Or we got ourselves into long down and distance because of sacks and penalties on the O line. It cannot be overstated how difficult it is for a Tackle to constantly be in a speed drop to get set to hold an edge because you know your qb will ONLY ever setup deep. Dropping and setting for a Tackle over and over and over again hands a distinct advantage to the pass rusher because he never has to think about needing to break underneath to get pressure. He just needs to beat the Tackle around the end. And evenumtually, late in games, when the tackles overcommit to the outside rush and either false start or lose leverage, the defender breaks underneath and with an additional defender coming outside, it's a sack. We never ran plays from under center. Seattle and Baltimore were two of the top teams in the league at running shotgun. We never ran 3 step drops. There was no threat of the unexpected. We didn't run screens to offset the rush.

Every snap we ran, it was a pass, a handoff from the gun, an RPO look (that fooled no one), or PA from the gun. When that's your offense, and you've shown an inability to make easy, gimme plays (see Kurt Warners breakdown earlier in this thread) what do you 'adjust' to? In that environment, for the Rams, them knowing what we woukd do and shutting us down wasn't an indictment on Pete or Schotty. If the job requires a vice, a hammer, a Phillips tip, 10mm socket and electrical tape, but all you have is the vice, the Phillips and some electrical tape, how do you finish the job? That might sound like an oversimplication, but it's not. And for years it looked like we were racking up job after job successfully. When in reality, we were building sh+t with unorthodox tools. But the tools we had were VERY good.

The Rams knew what tools we didn't have and all they had to do was neutralize one of our goto's. Game over.

And the defense? The defense wasnt great. It struggled all year. At best, coming into that game, we just had to hold well enough for our offense to control the clock, put up points and force the defense into predictable situations. We never did that in part because we couldn't hold the ball. We gave an offensive genius the opportunity to scheme his team to a win. He kept us off balance enough that fatigue and frustration did the rest.

The LOB would always say they could see when the game was over because the opposition would begin to mentally quit. Works both ways. Offenses get pissed at defenses that don't hold their water and defenses resent offenses for the same reason. Watch the pick six that Russ throws. Look at his demeanor the failed plays prior. He was confused and detached. It wasn't because the plays weren't aggressive enough. It was because he couldn't figure things out. That int was deflating. His confidence took a hit and what was already feeling like an upset turned even more sour.
 

pittpnthrs

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Its not blame. Its fact. The only thing that makes it hard to believe is the mythology built around his stats and hero plays.

Those elements make it difficult to see the truth that the guy had significant faults on the field that the team schemed around. Thats fact. And so you cant heap praise on him and put blame on the coach when the coach is a significant reason why the player excels.

And its beyond debate that the 'special treatment' he required undermined the chemistry of the team.

thats Pete's bad for allowing it.

Its also beyond debate that Russ has some pretty significant flaws n his game that punch some pretty big holes in the belief that he's all around 'elite'. Look at last year and watch what happens this year.

Pete F'd up in not seeing the error in compromising on accountability and inviting the players that made up the heart of the team to leave. HUGE mistake.

As was continuing to sacrifice performance for a culture after 2015.

Russ deserves credit for helping elevate the franchise. he also needs to shoulder some responsibility for whay the team struggled when any opposition to him was removed from the locker room.

The chemistry of the team was lost after the worst play call in NFL history. Pete lost the locker room and players stopped buying in and they rebelled with many leaving. Pete has since been trying to replace those players without much success. Lets not sugar coat that and lay all the blame on Wilson.

Yes Carroll schemed around Russ as every coach schemes around the strengths and weaknesses of their QB. Wilson has flaws, but he was still a great and generational QB. The best QB Seattle has ever had. He won a lot of games even without the LOB and Lynch. Sure he should shoulder some of the blame, but there's a lot of blame to go around.
 

keasley45

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DK was accused of throwing a tantrum in this game and looking unprofessional. He was justifiably PISSED because he saw the game slipping away because we GAVE it away on offense. He was pissed because there were a few drives where he was wide open to move the chains and Russ either threw deep or just didn't throw at all and took a huge sack. There was one that shoukd have converted that went from an 11 yard gain to a 15 or so years sack. It was no one's fault but the QB. That's as indisputable as Russ's meltdown against thr Colts last year. DK, on that play and others was wide open. Russ missed that play and others.

If we convert 3 or 4 of those, Akers isn't running like crazy. If we don't throw a pick 6, McVey can't attack us from a lead.

And if we show an ability to do ANYTHING more than what the Rams know we are limited to passing wise, we actually throw them off balance.

None of that happened.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Come on Sarge. People have been discounting him for years, not just after he was traded. Obsessed, and it's hilarious.


That's why I said in this thread.

For people to jump in and whatabout Wilson trying to act like that's what's going on here is lame.
 

pittpnthrs

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Yes, then he promptly went to another team and found out the problem wasn't the protection, it was him.

Just like you should come to the same conclusion through this entire mind numbing exchange.

But just like Russell, you're delusional and stubborn.

You are still concentrating solely on Wilson. Take him out of the equation totally. I'm asking why the other QB's, excluding Wilson, were atop the sack list under Carroll? Its not just a Wilson issue.
 

scutterhawk

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2012 to 2015 - LOB/Lynch/Russ --- Elevated by the first 2.
2015 to 2021 - Russ ---Defense was gutted, accountability, shelved. Offensive identity lost to suit the specific weaknesses and individual desires of the QB.

I dont understand how now, given hindsight, its not painfully obvious what led to the failures post LOB and Lynch. Russ had a full season outside of the shackles of Pete and his tired scheme in Denver, and he shat the bed, completely and pulled the curtain back on all of the deficiencies the post 2015 Seahawks offenses (and as a result, defenses) had to cover for.

Say what you want about the 2022 Hawks. We DID NOT fail because of the QB, we overachieved in rebuilding a champion and won because the offense was as dangerous as it was.

And no, its not about Russ. But to repeatedly knock Pete as out of touch, or failing his QB, or not being competent in building a winner post 2015 that could do more in the playoffs, you have to have a basis of comparison if the debate continues to be this tired, Pete v Russ deal. And Pete's offense, without Russ, did things that the one with him never could.

Pete's defense - we will see what the 2nd year of the new (old) attitude, retooled / rebuilt unit looks like. And it makes sense that a unit based on aggression and attitude (as the 2012 to 2015 units were) would likley lag if they had to add back the 'dogs' that they intentionally asked to leave (fallout from the SB loss) and didnt draft (post 2015) to maintain a 'friendly' , 'good-guy' team chemistry.

This team is a team again. The defense / running game / qb dynamic will be the same, but with the ability of the qb to more directly influence wins. ie - there's no deliberate and at times debilitating scheming necessary to get performance from the position. Theres no hand holding and coddling. There's no bubble around any one player to shelter them from the accoutabilit they should receive.

That is what kept us from succeeding. This regime has shown that outside those very specific circumstances and decisions between 2015 and 2021, that the FO and HC are not just good, but all time great.

And its not 2015 to 2021 anymore.
Summed Up Perfectly ^^
I'm not declaring Geno Smith as our savior, because he still has a couple of hurdles ahead of him before that anointment, but just about every man-jack Pete Hater HAS TO use Geno as a comparative to Russell Wilson (their hero), and that's just folly.
Pete Carroll HAD TO be CONSTANTLY making adjustments & exceptions for Wilson's style of play & sure, Pete's "Take Care of The Ball" added to the load on the Quarterback's ability to follow his procedural asking's, now, having said that Geno Smith DID pretty much everything that was asked & expected of Russ, only without Pete having to make special accommodations that he was making for RW while he was here.
 

keasley45

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Summed Up Perfectly ^^
I'm not declaring Geno Smith as our savior, because he still has a couple of hurdles ahead of him before that anointment, but just about every man-jack Pete Hater HAS TO use Geno as a comparative to Russell Wilson (their hero), and that's just folly.
Pete Carroll HAD TO be CONSTANTLY making adjustments & exceptions for Wilson's style of play & sure, Pete's "Take Care of The Ball" added to the load on the Quarterback's ability to follow his procedural asking's, now, having said that Geno Smith DID pretty much everything that was asked & expected of Russ, only without Pete having to make special accommodations that he was making for RW while he was here.
Yup.

I don't see how one can ask why, on offense, when Russ was here, the gameplan for game x was so bland or why against the Rams, we didn't make adjustments or weren't prepared, when you can plainly see when you have a qb who CAN play from under center, CAN hit the middle of the field, CAN throw from 3 step and 5 step drops, etc that the offense look entirely different. Formidable even, and without our true #1 RB, and injured breakout rookie RB, no #3 wr, and a talented, but young and inexperienced O line.

And it's NOT about Russ, but Russ had the same OC in 2021 that Geno has now and we ran little with #3 that we showed with Geno. So how does the failure of the offense when it looked stagnant NOT get shouldered in part by Russ (by in part, i mean a good bit more than previousky believed). And how does Pete NOT get credit from scheming our O to success around some very glaring and known handicaps?

It makes no sense.

Fault him for blowing up the team after our SB loss. Fault him for his often stupid play challenges. Fault him for putting too much trust in 'Deserving' , 'try hard' players and coaches who underperformed but were granted 4th, 5th and 6th chances (Tre flowers, KNJ stand up please).

But for the love of Pete (pun intended), it would be great if we could look past stats, explosive plays and get to the nuts and bolts, xs and os of what's been going on around here to get at a clearer picture of who and what we have. Because it's all pretty special.
 

scutterhawk

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Some of y'all need to face the fact that Russel Wilson IS NOT without his faults....His disastrous play last year is eye-openingly convincing of just a smattering of his problems.
The man is talented, no argument there, but he absolutely does have his flaws that has held him from becoming the next Tom Brady.
The FACT that all his devout fans are stacking blame on Pete, Schotts, Bevell, Waldren, Hackett etc. etc. etc. tells y'all who is REALLY AT FAULT for Russell Wilson's miscues = a FIVE WIN Season as 'The Man' in FULL CONTROL of his new team, & is blatantly RESPONSIBLE for HIS OWN failures.
 

scutterhawk

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imagine what would happen here if Wilson leads the Broncos to a super bowl win?
some posters would have to be institutionalized for several years.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL Yeah, good luck with that fairytale Weed.
Snowball's chance in Hell that happens, but I'm up for a wager, whatcha got?
 

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