Pete Carroll: Wasn't 'football people' who decided his fate

Ozzy

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I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, which is my fault. Ken Norton Jr. was a great LB coach. Nobody is arguing that fact otherwise. He was a vital part of the Seahawks championship. That being said, like NFL head coaches, there are a lot of great positional coaches that couldn't make the leap to the next level.

The issue here is that Norton's record of abject failure was at the very position that he was hired at, DC, not LB coach. He put on a very poor display during his three years with the Raiders. That is where the mistake was made. Carroll thought he would be able to mentor him, turn him into a competent DC. That is the rub with Carroll at the end of the day. He didn't choose his coordinators wisely.

You're right about one thing, we don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes. Carroll does know more than anyone on this board, he's the expert after all. Experts aren't always right though. Carroll is half right, yes the business people don't see the behind the scenes actions, what the lay person is able to see, however is the results.

Even the worst of NFL HC's could say the same thing and that Carroll did and still be technically correct.

For 7 years now, Seattles defense has been treading water. We threw tons of draft picks and capital at the defense and ended up with one of the NFL's worst units. Carroll can talk about the process all he wants, until he's blue in the face -- but in the end he wasn't able to field a competent unit. The man in charge of that process is Carroll.

Now, for the record -- I'm not saying that he is a bad coach, Carroll is most definitely not. Carroll was able to constantly get 8-9 wins even in his bad years. The problem is, the Seahawks have been stuck at this stage for years now. What's worse, is lately Carroll has been getting whopped by both Shannahan and McVay, our two biggest divisional rivals.

At this stage in Carroll's career, I think it was time to make a business decision. Given Carroll's age and the duration of his career he had one year left, with an optional second year. He was going to be the oldest coach in the NFL's history at the end of the 2024 season. A long term extension is out of the question at that age. Realistically I think it came down to this: Jody Allen and Vulcan's belief in Carroll's current trajectory within that two year span.

Now, obviously we both don't see eye to eye on that, I think you know my position on that last sentence. I do think this was the right time to fire him if you, the owner of the franchise don't believe Carroll is able to get anything serious going over the next two years given his age. It was the most successful period in Seahawks history, but nothing gold can stay.

Great post Spin.
 

onepicknick1

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Sorry Pete. You are absolutely right when you don't know much about something you hire the best and that's what they thought they did. You were the Chef they hired and let you go out and buy the groceries. If the dinner taste like crap we all knows it and you're trying to blame the groceries you BOUGHT. It doesn't take a chef to tell you your dinner taste like crap, the people eating it can tell you.
 

Fade

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What's getting lost here is, Vulcan and Jody knew Pete's plan very well. It's a total mischaracterization in a failed attempt to try and save face by Pete.

Jody gave Pete everything he wanted/needed to fix the defense, especially this year when Pete told her previously in those meetings what he needed to fix the defense.

As we all know, they meet every off-season. This is not their first dance together. Big contracts, trades, major draft capital, bringing back veterans. Jody provided it all for Pete.

Now imagine this joker walking in after totally flubbing it AGAIN. And his proposal is Re-pete 2024, with the big fixes akin to rearranging the deck furniture on the titanic.

Pete wasn't going to fire Hurtt. And he had run out of scapegoats and excuses.

Should've hired better coaches Pete, you did it to yourself.

This is a big win for the org. Accountability is back on the menu.
 

Maelstrom787

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Pete wasn't going to fire Hurtt. And he had run out of scapegoats and excuses.

Should've hired better coaches Pete, you did it to yourself.
Just to belay the "haha he's just hating on Fade" accusations, this is probably true.

But any claim to definitively know what transpired in the conversation between Pete and Vulcan is speculative and absolutely cannot be stated as fact. By anybody, for now.
 

Maelstrom787

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Sorry Pete. You are absolutely right when you don't know much about something you hire the best and that's what they thought they did. You were the Chef they hired and let you go out and buy the groceries. If the dinner taste like crap we all knows it and you're trying to blame the groceries you BOUGHT. It doesn't take a chef to tell you your dinner taste like crap, the people eating it can tell you.
I don't necessarily think it's fair to say he's "trying to blame the groceries he bought." This is another extrapolation that isn't justified by the information we have available.

If he were trying to blame the groceries he bought, he probably wouldn't have been quite as apt to defend said groceries.

We can't have it both ways, saying that Carroll is blaming everyone else and then saying that he was too loyal to the guys he brought in at the same time. Our popular collective criticisms are almost directly contradictory at this point.
 

keasley45

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I don't necessarily think it's fair to say he's "trying to blame the groceries he bought." This is another extrapolation that isn't justified by the information we have available.

If he were trying to blame the groceries he bought, he probably wouldn't have been quite as apt to defend said groceries.

We can't have it both ways, saying that Carroll is blaming everyone else and then saying that he was too loyal to the guys he brought in at the same time. Our popular collective criticisms are almost directly contradictory at this point.

Exactly this. The problem with Fade's takes is that they are so completely tainted with disdain for Pete. To the point that everything that is wrong or was wrong was his fault, and everything that was right was despite him.

Fake news like JS interviewing with Detroit and then using that to gain more control over the draft.

Or Jody being run by Pete

Or Pete torpedoing Russ

And on

And on
And on

Pete wasn't scapegoating anyone. He believed in what he was doing and woukdnt budge for the sake of that belief and the folks he brought in with him.

To act as though this story hasn't played out 2000x across the NFL when organizations turn the page is just denialism for the sake of carrying a certain sword.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. At some point, it would be about Pete and his time would be up. For some to behave now as though their trumped up conspiracy theories were actually deep insights when at most every turn, they were wrong, is silly.

Pete was canned for his belief in his system, his people , and the way he thought was best to get things on track. That's it. That's all.

John Schneider never wanted to leave because he knew Pete would be done before him regardless... AND... they had a great working relationship.

Pray to God we get the right guys in here for the future.

But good riddance to the nonsensical, non football based conspiracy theories that ran this forum in circles for years.
 

JPatera76

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Exactly this. The problem with Fade's takes is that they are so completely tainted with disdain for Pete. To the point that everything that is wrong or was wrong was his fault, and everything that was right was despite him.

Fake news like JS interviewing with Detroit and then using that to gain more control over the draft.

Or Jody being run by Pete

Or Pete torpedoing Russ

And on

And on
And on

Pete wasn't scapegoating anyone. He believed in what he was doing and woukdnt budge for the sake of that belief and the folks he brought in with him.

To act as though this story hasn't played out 2000x across the NFL when organizations turn the page is just denialism for the sake of carrying a certain sword.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. At some point, it would be about Pete and his time would be up. For some to behave now as though their trumped up conspiracy theories were actually deep insights when at most every turn, they were wrong, is silly.

Pete was canned for his belief in his system, his people , and the way he thought was best to get things on track. That's it. That's all.

John Schneider never wanted to leave because he knew Pete would be done before him regardless... AND... they had a great working relationship.

Pray to God we get the right guys in here for the future.

But good riddance to the nonsensical, non football based conspiracy theories that ran this forum in circles for years.

Insanely well done! 100% spot on
 

onepicknick1

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I don't necessarily think it's fair to say he's "trying to blame the groceries he bought." This is another extrapolation that isn't justified by the information we have available.

If he were trying to blame the groceries he bought, he probably wouldn't have been quite as apt to defend said groceries.

We can't have it both ways, saying that Carroll is blaming everyone else and then saying that he was too loyal to the guys he brought in at the same time. Our popular collective criticisms are almost directly contradictory at this point.
Well not really saying he's blaming the groceries he bought, but saying the dinner he cooked tasted like crap. You don't have to be a chef to know the dinner was bad. People were speculating when he brought up Hurt, hmm can't believe the answer to the defensive problem was already in the coaching staff. These of course shall I quote " non football people." He has at times ignored people asking about the defense.
 

Fade

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Exactly this. The problem with Fade's takes is that they are so completely tainted with disdain for Pete. To the point that everything that is wrong or was wrong was his fault, and everything that was right was despite him.

Fake news like JS interviewing with Detroit and then using that to gain more control over the draft.

Or Jody being run by Pete

Or Pete torpedoing Russ

And on

And on
And on

Pete wasn't scapegoating anyone. He believed in what he was doing and woukdnt budge for the sake of that belief and the folks he brought in with him.

To act as though this story hasn't played out 2000x across the NFL when organizations turn the page is just denialism for the sake of carrying a certain sword.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. At some point, it would be about Pete and his time would be up. For some to behave now as though their trumped up conspiracy theories were actually deep insights when at most every turn, they were wrong, is silly.

Pete was canned for his belief in his system, his people , and the way he thought was best to get things on track. That's it. That's all.

John Schneider never wanted to leave because he knew Pete would be done before him regardless... AND... they had a great working relationship.

Pray to God we get the right guys in here for the future.

But good riddance to the nonsensical, non football based conspiracy theories that ran this forum in circles for years.
https://www.nfl.com/news/lions-eye-blockbuster-as-team-plans-to-pursue-seahawks-gm-john-schneider

It was no conspiracy. Meanwhile you rattle off you're own conspiracies. Gotta love it.
 

keasley45

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https://www.nfl.com/news/lions-eye-blockbuster-as-team-plans-to-pursue-seahawks-gm-john-schneider

It was no conspiracy. Meanwhile you rattle off you're own conspiracies. Gotta love it.
Bud, that article is almost identical to one I quoted last year when you brought up Schneider having interviewed with Detroit. It doesn't say he interviewed. It says Detroit should and was likely interested.

From your article:

"the Lions or another team could try to interview Schneider if it offered him full control. Another team is also likely going to make a run at Schneider."

" it Also could and should snow during winter in Cleveland."... but it doesn't always.

He didn't interview. And in an interview just prior to him extending in Seattle he refuted any talk that he was ever interested in being anywhere else.

And which conspiracy theories was i supposedly pushing? Did I doctor up screenshots of wrs running wide open during the Russ years?

Did I fabricate the lockerroom drama that swirled around the team and specifically Russ that led to the lockeroom fracture that precipitated the fall of the LOB?

I've been posting facts in the face of 'meddling' conspiracies, power struggle conspiracies, John wanting Pete gone conspiracies, Jody being a owner in paper only conspiracies, Russ being handcuffed conspiracies, etc, etc, etc.

Convenient comeback though. The unfortunate thing is there's a record of every post... forecasts that Russ would flourish without Pete (ahem), that Geno would suck (ahem). That we wouldn't win more than 5 games last year (cough)...

Seriously? I'm pushing conspiracies?
 
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Maelstrom787

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Well not really saying he's blaming the groceries he bought, but saying the dinner he cooked tasted like crap. You don't have to be a chef to know the dinner was bad. People were speculating when he brought up Hurt, hmm can't believe the answer to the defensive problem was already in the coaching staff. These of course shall I quote " non football people." He has at times ignored people asking about the defense.
Alright, I guess that makes sense. He did get fired, ultimately, because of results. I just don't think that his point, which was made in a much less malicious context than is being painted, is really... wrong, ya know? It's always going to be a challenge trying to explain complex football issues, and therefore plans to solve them, to people who aren't of the type of background to be able to understand any of it. I don't think he's necessarily saying that everyone outside of football geniuses are wrong so much as he's expressing a reality of his position.

Him saying he had precise, complex solutions for our problems that he simply wasn't able to communicate well enough to relative football novices doesn't read as especially out of line to me. If he was protecting his guys, which it seems like he was, then I am fine with the decision to move on. This radio interview and the reaction to it, though... I dunno. Just feels like an outlet for people to be mad at something that isn't really an untrue statement.
 

Fade

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Bud, that article is almost identical to one I quoted last year when you brought up Schneider having interviewed with Detroit. It doesn't say he interviewed. It says Detroit should and was likely interested.

From your article:

"the Lions or another team could try to interview Schneider if it offered him full control. Another team is also likely going to make a run at Schneider."

" it Also could and should snow during winter in Cleveland."... but it doesn't always.

He didn't interview. And in an interview just prior to him extending in Seattle he refuted any talk that he was ever interested in being anywhere else.

And which conspiracy theories was i supposedly pushing? Did I doctor up screenshots of wrs running wide open during the Russ years?

Did I fabricate the lockerroom drama that swirled around the team and specifically Russ that led to the lockeroom fracture that precipitated the fall of the LOB?

I've been posting facts in the face of 'meddling' conspiracies, power struggle conspiracies, John wanting Pete gone conspiracies, Jody being a owner in paper only conspiracies, Russ being handcuffed conspiracies, etc, etc, etc.

Convenient comeback though. The unfortunate thing is there's a record of every post... forecasts that Russ would flourish without Pete (ahem), that Geno would suck (ahem). That we wouldn't win more than 5 games last year (cough)...

Seriously? I'm pushing conspiracies?

This is the most important post I will ever make on .NET.

But first, you left out some of my best predictions and arguments in that time frame.

-Pete would squander it, he is the problem.
-Despite the massive investment they will get worse on defense.
-Clint Hurtt would be his downfall.
-Pete would not modernize, he would eventually fall back into what he was comfortable with.
-The offensive issues, a litany of the them. Were a Pete thing, not a Russ thing.
-And Kyle would ruin Trey Lance. Right on the button.

Back to JS:

When it comes to these things you have to be able to connect dots. NFL teams are not going to lay it out for you, and wrap it up with a nice pretty bow. You have to pay attention to the pressers and little nuggets that may get dropped here and there. Then connect the dots.

The situation has literally played out right in front of you and you're denying it?

I'll break it down step by step.

-After that leak on NFL.com, shortly there after in 2021, JS signed his deal that would run 3 years longer than Pete's. This is huge. A successor plan was already in place.

-In 2022, JS starts conveniently having "normal" drafts. No more WTF?! picks. Fairly obvious in that off-season meeting John was granted more draft control. Pete basically mentioned it in that draft after the 1st round presser.

-Fast forward to last week--Now, Pete is out.

-JS wrestled the power away from Pete. Pete mentioned this in his farewell presser.

-Pete is out, out. He is not part of the hiring process for the new coach.

-His staff has been let go, free to look for jobs elsewhere.

-Pete doesn't even know what his advisory role will be. As he doesn't have much interest in it, anyway. As he has repeatedly stated last week and made it crystal clear, he still wants to coach.

The conspiracy rhetoric is just a way to dismiss valid points, masked behind the team not spilling the beans on every single last little detail. Which will never happen. But then the team makes moves, and you can see it.

Pete was the problem, that is why he is out. And JS inherited his power. This is fact, not a conspiracy.

JS would not have agreed to a contract extension with the Seahawks unless given more power. Listen to Pete's final presser, he dropped a lot of nuggets in there. Answered / and confirmed a lot of speculation that has been going around hawkville for years.
 
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keasley45

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This is the most important post I will ever make on .NET.

But first, you left out some of my best predictions and arguments in that time frame.

-Pete would squander it, he is the problem.
-Despite the massive investment they will get worse on defense.
-Clint Hurtt would be his downfall.
-Pete would not modernize, he would eventually fall back into what he was comfortable with.
-The offensive issues, a litany of the them. Were a Pete thing, not a Russ thing.
-And Kyle would ruin Trey Lance. Right on the button.

Back to JS:

When it comes to these things you have to be able to connect dots. NFL teams are not going to lay it out for you, and wrap it up with a nice pretty bow. You have to pay attention to the pressers and little nuggets that may get dropped here and there. Then connect the dots.

The situation has literally played out right in front of you and you're denying it?

I'll break it down step by step.

-After that leak on NFL.com, shortly there after in 2021, JS signed his deal that would run 3 years longer than Pete's. This is huge. A successor plan was already in place.

-In 2022, JS starts conveniently having "normal" drafts. No more WTF?! picks. Fairly obvious in that off-season meeting John was granted more draft control. Pete basically mentioned it in that draft after the 1st round presser.

-Fast forward to last week--Now, Pete is out.

-JS wrestled the power away from Pete. Pete mentioned this in his farewell presser.

-Pete is out, out. He is not part of the hiring process for the new coach.

-His staff has been let go, free to look for jobs elsewhere.

-Pete doesn't even know what his advisory role will be. As he doesn't have much interest in it, anyway. As he has repeatedly stated last week and made it crystal clear, he still wants to coach.

The conspiracy rhetoric is just a way to dismiss valid points, masked behind the team not spilling the beans on every single last little detail. Which will never happen. But then the team makes moves, and you can see it.

Pete was the problem, that is why he is out. And JS inherited his power. This is fact, not a conspiracy.

JS would not have agreed to a contract extension with the Seahawks unless given more power. Listen to Pete's final presser, he dropped a lot of nuggets in there. Answered / and confirmed a lot of speculation that has been going around hawkville for years.
Like i said - before last week, in your eyes, there was no power in this organization other than Pete's. Which from the jump made no sense because if John and Pete were so at odds, and Pete had total authority, he could have had him removed, or as was stated by Pete, he coukd have foregone bringing in a GM at all and done the job himself. Or if if JS was so power hungry he COULD have gone rather than renewing here. He woukd have been a top candidate anywhere. That was never the case.

So now, rather than just being happy the dude is gone (because that's all you ever wanted and the only person you ever hung any blame on) you are trying to hijack the historical and factual high ground by rewriting (warping) the reality of what went down to fit in the little black box of hate you've been building for Pete for years.

Fact is, there was no wrestling of anything. They were jointly running the org for years with Pete having final say. Inherently, in any good partnership, there is disagreement. Disagreement... opposing views, are what make an organization healthy. If everyone is marching down the same road to the same beat and it's the wrong one, the organization fails. Pete knew this from the beginning, and spoke eloquently on that exact thing in his presser when he talked about in the end, doing what was best for the organization and in his eyes whether fighting for his perspective or stepping aside, that he did so FOR THE ORGANIZATION. And that John, who represented a different way, would now have an opportunity to take the reigns and try a different direction.

That concept that he articulated and is '101' in healthy, learning organization thinking is what the Hawks are built on and was behind what played out with Pete stepping aside. The organization requires that there be checks and balances. Two people seeing the same problem. Two people offering perspective. And ultimately a choice needing to be made. And until last week, Pete had authority to do that.

But Pete himself said more than once that it wasn't about winning a coaching job 'control', and that rather it was about the right path for the organization. And as HE said, inherently leaders don't always agree and he and John didnt, but they found a way through it. The difference in this case?

The end of Pete's contract.

Pete having a way of doing things that requires 100% commitment.

And a path forward away from Pete's tenure toward a path that woukd begin to see a transition to the future- something that at its core wouldn't work in Pete's construction of the culture and systems of the team.

What needed to happen in that scenario was obvious. Its 'small mind' thinking to try to ascribe any of it to infighting, power struggles or whatever else youve spent the time trying to plot out and rationalize because it misses entirely the point of it all - the exact thing that makes this organization great. And that's the extraordinarily high level of leadership and committment to greatness that exists here. The transition of power exhibited last week is EXACTLY the kind of thing that every organziation should aspire to.

But to address your theory -

Petes contract was up in a year. He might feel like he can coach anothrr 10 years but thats just not rereality and it was just olainly obvious a transition away from the current plan was necessary.

Fact is, there are ALWAYS different paths an org can take. John has flat stated his side post RW - that the team lost its aggression , and that moving on from Russ in hindsight should have happened before.

Pete has always been consistent in his - stick to the culture, grow men, grow belief.

When something isnt working and you have two different plans on how to fix it developed by two smart people who are partners, at some point, you say 'ok, lets try the other way'. JS was good with doing it. John's boss was good with doing it. Pete wasnt. Its not the first time it happened. That was two years ago. And Pete went along with it and resetting the roster, but he kept to his old script in trying to run it.

If he'd walked out of that meeting and said - alright John, lets bring in x and y coordinators and z position guy and give this whole deal a refresh... ill ride it out with you for my last year, hed still be here.

He chose to not spend the last year under contract bringing in what he probably felt would be counter culture guys, and leading a thing where the generals werent his. From his perspective, he'd be a leader in name only.

His reference to seeing it through 'down to the smallest details and being very specific' in how to fix things when he was asked by Mina about the way he wanted to do things speaks directly to that.

John is 200 years younger than Pete. He was always going to be here when Pete left. There was no wrestling necessary.

Summary-

Plan B was chosen. Pete remained committed to the position that his way couldnt be hybridized - for many valid reasons. And the organization (and Pete- who built it) chose the option that gives it a chance to thrive on a different road.

End of story.

Its hard to take because its devoid of envy, dark sub-plots, power struggles, etc.

But good organizations are absent all of those things and work hard to be. Counter to your long standing belief, a good organization (one of the best) is what we have. Just accept it and be happy.

You have some really great insights that would have greater value if they were unshackled from this horse that is now literally (figuritively) dead.
 

BASF

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https://www.nfl.com/news/lions-eye-blockbuster-as-team-plans-to-pursue-seahawks-gm-john-schneider

It was no conspiracy. Meanwhile you rattle off you're own conspiracies. Gotta love it.
The article clearly states that the Lions "plan to pursue John Schneider." It is in the second paragraph. The video clearly states that the Lions are "planning to make a push for John Schneider." At no point does any link or video say that they actually talked. You have presented that they talked, which is not true.

As far as the drafts changing goes, I have pointed out on numerous occasions that Ken Norton Jr no longer having influence improved the drafts when he left for the Raiders (and theirs got worse) and when he was finally fired is all the evidence needed. But you ignore it because it does not fit your crusade.
 

Sgt. Largent

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This statement was as close as Pete will ever come to something that sounds like sour grapes.

Unless you're Al Davis, EVERY pro football team is owned by "non football people", as well as Presidents of football operations who made their juice and success in the business world, not the football world.

If Pete's mad that Jody wasn't going to let him fire and hire another bunch of coordinators for the 3rd and 4th time trying to fix his terrible defense and mediocre offense? That's on him. He had almost a decade to hire his next group of successful assistants...........and couldn't figure it out.

When your coaching tree dries up and your divisional rival coaches are getting their assistants and coordinators snatched up left and right? That's the biggest red flag there is for a head coach who's no longer hiring the right people.
 

NoGain

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I'd add Jerry Jones to the list of football people who own an NFL team.
 

Weadoption

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i think Vulcan was successful in helping Jody see that going with a Re-Pete on any level was not logical.
Vulcans are all about logic.
 

Sgt. Largent

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I'd add Jerry Jones to the list of football people who own an NFL team.


Yeah how's that going. Dude's meddled his way to mediocrity for a solid three decades thinking he knows better than actual football people.
 
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