NEWSFLASH! They Cannot Rebuild Properly Until Pete is Gone

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Been saying this for a few years now. Nothing will change until Carroll is gone..

Yup. And when he's gone we will likely lose a lot more games. That the kind of change you're looking for?

Cause Pete is the only coach that knows how to “win” games, right?

Well, I haven’t seen much supporting evidence this season to prove he can adequately win games.

 

[kf3339]

I keep seeing threads like: Fire Norton, trade this guy, cut that guy, blow it up and rebuild!

Newsflash! The franchise cannot rebuild properly until Pete is gone. Name 5 great moves this team has made in the last 2 seasons…? I'll save you the trouble. They haven't made 5 great moves in the last 5 seasons. This is not the regime you should put in charge of another rebuild.

Trading Wilson will not fix this. They don't know how to use 1st round picks. And they would likely be late 1st round picks. Netting players such as Rashaad Penny, James Carpenter, LJ Collier, Malik McDowell, etc.

Firing Norton will not fix this. Pete would only replace him with another puppet.

Any possible moves that can be thought of, WILL NOT FIX THIS. Pete's scheme turns all-pro's into avg.

Players are not developing. They're drafted, and they routinely stay the same or get worse over time.

The Seahawks problems are structural and systemic and lay at the feet of Pete Carroll.

Until this is understood the Seahawks cannot move forward as a franchise, they are trapped in purgatory.

They will only continue to steadily decline like they have been for many seasons. No matter what moves you can concoct in your mind, even if they were to actually happen. Things will not change until Pete is gone. That is when the rebuilding will actually start.

True, but I would add in JS at this point. Even if PC is calling most or all the shots I seriously doubt JS can be trusted to pick a HC and help to rebuild and Super Bowl contending team. A complete change in management and ownership is needed at this point. Actually, that has been the case for the last 3-4 years.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Wilson and JS are your only hope.

It might not work out. But it is the only option where you might be able to succeed.

So not trying it would be stupid.

 

[getnasty]

Sounds good but look no further then the stadium across the street to see how hard it is. Pretty funny how excited we get as Mariners fans to almost make the playoffs but want to blow up the Seahawks at the same time who always make the playoffs.

 

[Seymour]

It is pretty obvious to me Fade is correct here. Taking it 1 step further lies the real dilemma though.

Who is going to do it and what will it take?

I personally believe that it will take 2 losing seasons before the stars to align for Pete to get the axe as I think he is just too damn stubborn to resign.

So....now what??

Cheer for losses because we know where this is heading??

 

[JustTheTip]

It is pretty obvious to me Fade is correct here. Taking it 1 step further lies the real dilemma though.

Who is going to do it and what will it take?

I personally believe that it will take 2 losing seasons before the stars to align for Pete to get the axe as I think he is just too damn stubborn to resign.

So....now what??

Cheer for losses because we know where this is heading??

I have been pretty vocal about this for years, but I will not cheer for losses or be okay with them to get it. Instead, I will continue to stupidly hope I am wrong or something major changes until he is gone.

 

[Beren]

Absolutely. Pete Carroll is incapable of rebuilding this franchise.

The league has figured out Pete Carroll's Cover 3 defensive scheme. Teams looked to emulate our system in mass and as a result, teams developed an offensive system that gives our defense fits. Our HC has done a poor job adjusting to these changes. What we're seeing on defense is not a problem of Ken Norton Jr's making, he is just doing exactly what Pete wants like the good soldier that he is.

Holmgren once said that he never took another head coaching job after the Seahawks, because he felt the game had passed him by and he no longer understood it well enough. I feel like this is the juncture that Carroll is at right now. He once was one of the best defensive minds in football but he refuses to let go of his old preconceived notions and clings to an old system that is out of vogue. The NFL is an adapt or die league and our coach has done a poor job adjusting to the changes. At this point in time i'm getting really heavy Green bay Packers McCarthy vibes.

Not only that, our drafting and trading strategies have been nonsensical. We're betting our future on players that don't fit our scheme and we're pigeon holing them into roles that don't fit their skill sets. As a result our depth has been depleted and our starpower is seriously waning.

Carroll was exactly what the Seahawks needed back in 2010. He brought us some magical moments as head coach, moments that I shall never forget. 11 years later however he's just a remnant of the past. Over 15 coaches have a better playoff record than Pete Carroll since our last Super Bowl appearance.

Our only wins in the playoffs came against the Vikings, which should have won the game. They lost because Blair Walsh missed a 30 yard field goal in the waning seconds of the game.

Against the Lions that backed into the playoffs. In this game the Lions were fielding a QB with a sprained ankle and a jacked up throwing hand.

Against the Eagles, a team fielding a 40+ year old McCown, a QB that wasn't even very good in his prime.

Notice a trend here? All of our wins came against teams with injured Quarterbacks or backups, or in Bridgewaters case, a journeyman QB.

If we don't make the playoffs this season we will have 1 playoff win in 5 years while having a franchise QB. That is absolutely inexcusable.

Great post.

 

[Beren]

Re-build? You mean like the Jets and Lions keep doing? Because thta's what our future will look like with a re-build. For every HC like Sean McVay there is a Josh McDaniels. Hire the wrong coach, and last night's debacle will be a weekly reality. Thanks but no thanks.

Find this staggering.

You'd rather definitely stagnate/rot, than roll the dice and potentially improve. Also, you can roll the dice more than once if need be.

 

[Chapow]

I'm for a complete rebuild. Fire Pete, trade Metcalf before the November deadline, see if Russell wants to be here for a rebuild, if not, trade him. Trade or cut Bobby.

And before I get fried for my suggestion, yes, I'm fully aware of the consequences, that we could end up like the Lions. It's a risk I'm willing to take.

Yes, there's a good chance that if we fire Pete that we could end up being like the Lions or Jets. We could go 10 years without so much as making the playoffs.

But that's a chance I'm willing to take. Time for a change.

That's great that you're willing to take that risk, but that's probably not a risk the owner is willing to take.

People like to say things like "They will only continue to steadily decline like they have been for many seasons.", but I very much doubt the owner sees it that way. I would imagine that the owner sees a team that has gone 9-7 in 2017, 10-6 in 2018, 11-5 in 2019, and 12-4 in 2020. That doesn't really seem like a team that has been in a steady decline for many seasons. I would imagine that from the owners perspective, that looks like a team that has been improving every year for the past 4 years.

Now, this season looks bad so far, but I doubt that the owner is itching to fire what has been a very successful head coach, that wins waaaayyy more than he loses, that makes the playoffs every year, and that is coming off a 12-4 NFC West winning season over one bad start to a season.

 

[LegendKiller]

Can we get a "Fire Pete" Chant at Lumen? Or bring in a giant banner/poster in the endzone that says "Fire Pete"...anything to get Jody's attention?

 

[Fade]

For the record, I'm in the camp that thinks they don't need a total rebuild. Just a retooling around Wilson.

The Chip Kelly Eagles were a laughing stock and in 2 years they were Super Bowl Champions. Hey, oddly enough, Doug Pederson is available. NFL teams can turn it around very quickly with just a great draft class or two, and a few Free Agent signings. If you have a QB you can always reload.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Take one more shot with Wilson over the next 2 years with a new coach. If it still doesn't work and the teams continues to look broken, that's when you pull the plug entirely and blow the whole thing up. Franchise tag and trade Wilson at that point. His no trade clause would expire and the team could trade him anywhere and get the best deal possible. You don't give up on franchise QBs willy-nilly.

The Dolphins are still searching after losing Marino 20 years ago.

The Jets are still searching after losing Namath 50 years ago.

The Bears are still searching after losing Sid Luckman 70 years ago.

The Seahawks in their entire 45+ year history have found exactly 1.

These guys don't grow on trees.

Based on what I've heard come out of the mouths of Pete & John over the years, I've pieced together their process, and long story short, it pretty much boils down to Pete screwing things up early in the draft & free agency. What Pete wants, Pete gets. And then John is left to clean up the mess with late round picks and late free agency signings, where he does pretty good, given the circumstances. Kind of how Wilson cleans up Pete's mess on the field. JS is doing his best in the front office given the circumstances, and has never had full roster control, he's been serving as Pete's lackey.

It would explain how Seattle is so bad early in the process, and how they can be good late in the process. The Seahawks still do great things with day 3 draft picks. They've just been absolutely underwhelming with day 1 & day 2 draft picks.

For those that don't know the Seahawks own Wilson for 4 more years. (Two contractually + Two Franchise tags.)
The Seahawks will have a boatload of cap space next off-season. Things can turn on a dime, but they need to get Pete out, and give John a full crack at picking the players. It PC & JS are a package deal, and they both have to go then so be it. The point is the Seahawks need someone new shopping for the groceries (personnel) and cooking (coaching) the meal. Pete serving in both roles as the Grand Poobah has just led to the failure and downward spiral that you've been seeing.

 

[Fade]

I'm for a complete rebuild. Fire Pete, trade Metcalf before the November deadline, see if Russell wants to be here for a rebuild, if not, trade him. Trade or cut Bobby.

And before I get fried for my suggestion, yes, I'm fully aware of the consequences, that we could end up like the Lions. It's a risk I'm willing to take.

Yes, there's a good chance that if we fire Pete that we could end up being like the Lions or Jets. We could go 10 years without so much as making the playoffs.

But that's a chance I'm willing to take. Time for a change.

That's great that you're willing to take that risk, but that's probably not a risk the owner is willing to take.

People like to say things like "They will only continue to steadily decline like they have been for many seasons.", but I very much doubt the owner sees it that way. I would imagine that the owner sees a team that has gone 9-7 in 2017, 10-6 in 2018, 11-5 in 2019, and 12-4 in 2020. That doesn't really seem like a team that has been in a steady decline for many seasons. I would imagine that from the owners perspective, that looks like a team that has been improving every year for the past 4 years.

Now, this season looks bad so far, but I doubt that the owner is itching to fire what has been a very successful head coach, that wins waaaayyy more than he loses, that makes the playoffs every year, and that is coming off a 12-4 NFC West winning season over one bad start to a season.

Looking merely at their records is shallow, surface level stuff. Running a multi-billion dollar business & asset, I would like to think they are taking a deeper look under the hood.

The team has fallen behind, on a schematic & personnel level, and Wilson was just asked to carry more and more over the years to make up for the decline. It is now gotten so bad that Wilson can no longer mask it, it is obvious to pretty much anyone who has been watching this for YEARS.

I would love to see how many QBs that have +70% completion, 10-1 TD INT/Ratio, and a 130 passer rating have a losing record. Whelp, Wilson now does.

Without Wilson, Carroll has a career losing record. Pete's gotten so bad he can't even win with Wilson anymore, routinely blowing double digit leads, while continuing to make a mockery of defensive football with his 32nd ranked defense.

 

[Chapow]

Looking merely at their records is shallow, surface level stuff. Running a multi-billion dollar business & asset, I would like to think they are taking a deeper look under the hood.

Does anyone really know how involved Jody Allen is? Because it sure seems like Pete Carroll is running the show, and I mean the whole show, not just coaching the team. Pete Carroll is the head coach and the executive vice president of football operations. It is my understanding that he is effectively the general manager and has the final say in all football matters. I could be wrong, but I don't believe Pete answers to anyone other than the owner (J.A.). He was also just given a contract extension less than a year ago so it would seem that Jody Allen is perfectly content with the direction of the team.

I absolutely agree that merely looking at their records is shallow, surface level stuff, but it sure seems like Jody Allen is happy to let Pete continue to run the show as long as he continues producing winning seasons and playoff appearances.

 

[Fade]

Looking merely at their records is shallow, surface level stuff. Running a multi-billion dollar business & asset, I would like to think they are taking a deeper look under the hood.

Does anyone really know how involved Jody Allen is? Because it sure seems like Pete Carroll is running the show, and I mean the whole show, not just coaching the team. Pete Carroll is the head coach and the executive vice president of football operations. It is my understanding that he is effectively the general manager and has the final say in all football matters. I could be wrong, but I don't believe Pete answers to anyone other than the owner (J.A.). He was also just given a contract extension less than a year ago so it would seem that Jody Allen is perfectly content with the direction of the team.

I absolutely agree that merely looking at their records is shallow, surface level stuff, but it sure seems like Jody Allen is happy to let Pete continue to run the show as long as he continues producing winning seasons and playoff appearances.

That is the big question that won't be answered for another few months, so we're left to speculate.

My contention is this. At the end of the day it is a business. Moving on from Russell Wilson would cost the team hundreds of millions of dollars in the short term, and billions of dollars in franchise valuation in the longterm.

Or instead Pete Carroll could retire, or move on from him and eat the $40M or thereabouts that they will owe him. I chock that up to the cost of doing business.

I don't believe Jody is operating on her own. Vulcan will step in to make sure this doesn't go completely off the rails and do the right thing.

I recognize that Pete just might have Jodi's ear, and Wilson would have no choice but to request a trade, as Pete keeps doing what he's doing. (Running the team into the ground.) Dark times if that is what indeed happens. It will make the 90's Seahawks seem like the glory days in comparison. And the Seahawks would lose BILLIONS of dollars in the process. We'll see.

 

[Hawks 'n Nucks]

For the record, I'm in the camp that thinks they don't need a total rebuild. Just a retooling around Wilson.

The Chip Kelly Eagles were a laughing stock and in 2 years they were Super Bowl Champions. Hey, oddly enough, Doug Pederson is available. NFL teams can turn it around very quickly with just a great draft class or two, and a few Free Agent signings. If you have a QB you can always reload.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Take one more shot with Wilson over the next 2 years with a new coach. If it still doesn't work and the teams continues to look broken, that's when you pull the plug entirely and blow the whole thing up. Franchise tag and trade Wilson at that point. His no trade clause would expire and the team could trade him anywhere and get the best deal possible. You don't give up on franchise QBs willy-nilly.

The Dolphins are still searching after losing Marino 20 years ago.

The Jets are still searching after losing Namath 50 years ago.

The Bears are still searching after losing Sid Luckman 70 years ago.

The Seahawks in their entire 45+ year history have found exactly 1.

These guys don't grow on trees.

Based on what I've heard come out of the mouths of Pete & John over the years, I've pieced together their process, and long story short, it pretty much boils down to Pete screwing things up early in the draft & free agency. What Pete wants, Pete gets. And then John is left to clean up the mess with late round picks and late free agency signings, where he does pretty good, given the circumstances. Kind of how Wilson cleans up Pete's mess on the field. JS is doing his best in the front office given the circumstances, and has never had full roster control, he's been serving as Pete's lackey.

It would explain how Seattle is so bad early in the process, and how they can be good late in the process. The Seahawks still do great things with day 3 draft picks. They've just been absolutely underwhelming with day 1 & day 2 draft picks.

For those that don't know the Seahawks own Wilson for 4 more years. (Two contractually + Two Franchise tags.)
The Seahawks will have a boatload of cap space next off-season. Things can turn on a dime, but they need to get Pete out, and give John a full crack at picking the players. It PC & JS are a package deal, and they both have to go then so be it. The point is the Seahawks need someone new shopping for the groceries (personnel) and cooking (coaching) the meal. Pete serving in both roles as the Grand Poobah has just led to the failure and downward spiral that you've been seeing.

This is a great post. If there was ever going to be a year to get rid of Pete without hitting rock bottom, this is probably going to be it.

 

[Fade]

Absolutely. Pete Carroll is incapable of rebuilding this franchise.

The league has figured out Pete Carroll's Cover 3 defensive scheme. Teams looked to emulate our system in mass and as a result, teams developed an offensive system that gives our defense fits. Our HC has done a poor job adjusting to these changes. What we're seeing on defense is not a problem of Ken Norton Jr's making, he is just doing exactly what Pete wants like the good soldier that he is.

Holmgren once said that he never took another head coaching job after the Seahawks, because he felt the game had passed him by and he no longer understood it well enough. I feel like this is the juncture that Carroll is at right now. He once was one of the best defensive minds in football but he refuses to let go of his old preconceived notions and clings to an old system that is out of vogue. The NFL is an adapt or die league and our coach has done a poor job adjusting to the changes. At this point in time i'm getting really heavy Green bay Packers McCarthy vibes.

Not only that, our drafting and trading strategies have been nonsensical. We're betting our future on players that don't fit our scheme and we're pigeon holing them into roles that don't fit their skill sets. As a result our depth has been depleted and our starpower is seriously waning.

Carroll was exactly what the Seahawks needed back in 2010. He brought us some magical moments as head coach, moments that I shall never forget. 11 years later however he's just a remnant of the past. Over 15 coaches have a better playoff record than Pete Carroll since our last Super Bowl appearance.

Our only wins in the playoffs came against the Vikings, which should have won the game. They lost because Blair Walsh missed a 30 yard field goal in the waning seconds of the game.

Against the Lions that backed into the playoffs. In this game the Lions were fielding a QB with a sprained ankle and a jacked up throwing hand.

Against the Eagles, a team fielding a 40+ year old McCown, a QB that wasn't even very good in his prime.

Notice a trend here? All of our wins came against teams with injured Quarterbacks or backups, or in Bridgewaters case, a journeyman QB.

If we don't make the playoffs this season we will have 1 playoff win in 5 years while having a franchise QB. That is absolutely inexcusable.

Excellent post. The 1 playoff win in 5 years, should make every Seahawks fan pissed.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Absolutely it does. It's just plain not good enough.
All while people decide to tell others that they are just fine and/or satisfied getting in the playoffs. No, we are not. At all.

 

[hawker84]

Sounds good but look no further then the stadium across the street to see how hard it is. Pretty funny how excited we get as Mariners fans to almost make the playoffs but want to blow up the Seahawks at the same time who always make the playoffs.

You get excited when you walk into the stadium and see all of the division banners do ya? I personally like my team to aim a little higher, and I bet you dollars to donuts so do the players.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Why do people constantly feel the need to put someone down and/or ASSUME that they are happy with just making the playoffs??? And you can't actually believe that the team isn't aiming for the SB every single year. Just stop

 

[notyou]

Why do people constantly feel the need to put someone down and/or ASSUME that they are happy with just making the playoffs??? And you can't actually believe that the team isn't aiming for the SB every single year. Just stop

I've seen you post that people must not be happy with winning when they point out something negative about the team or player. How is what you do any different from what you are complaining about? Most of your posts are treating other members like crap because they don't post happy thoughts about the team.