PC and JS have been BRILLIANT

[pittpnthrs]

Before you throw stones, climb off your Wilson bandwagon for just a moment and look at what I actually said - all of it is true, and none of it suggests Wilson is not a great QB, because he is. However, the other side of the coin is not scoring early, and that does need to be addressed.

Scoring early has been an issue for 10 years now though. Carroll's mantra is you cant win the game in the 1st quarter. When I see Wilson take over the game in the 4th quarter because he has to, its hard for me to lay the majority of blame on him for the sluggish offense in the previous quarters.

 

[BASF]

You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.

Not really though. Usually the 4th quarter heroics include quick tempo and aggressiveness that the other 3 quarters didnt have because its the offense going away from Petes schemes. Fans have complained for years as to why the offense wasnt ran that way from the start of the game. Its mind boggling actually.

This is not rhetorical, but tell me how many teams since the merger were able to play that way for four quarters game in and game out and were successful with it for more than three seasons? Remember to use your definition of success as making the championship game for your answer.

Most teams run their offense with a sense of urgency to produce points I would say. Pete seems to run his more so with clock management in mind. I dont know of any other team in the NFL that runs the clock down to 1 before the snap. When I talk about being aggressive and up tempo, i'm not referring to a 2 minute drill.

This is way overblown. AgentDIB went through a couple of games from last season and one of them was requested specifically since the perception was that it happened a lot in that game and the amount was less than ten percent of our snaps. There are plenty of other teams that run the clock down to zero before the snap. It has admittedly been two years since I had Sunday Ticket and watched seven games a Sunday, but the running down the clock to zero was not uncommon.

My point was that the type of up tempo offense that Let Russ Cook advocates want is only effective for two or three seasons. The only one that maintained longer was the Bills with Kelly, Thomas and Reed and they only lasted as a top ten offense for five seasons until they were figured out. Wyche didn't go up tempo until the Bengals had already been a top ten offense for three years, and that was only effective for two years (only got past divisional round once). Kelly's up tempo offense, which was highly touted coming in, had no playoff victories.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Not really though. Usually the 4th quarter heroics include quick tempo and aggressiveness that the other 3 quarters didnt have because its the offense going away from Petes schemes. Fans have complained for years as to why the offense wasnt ran that way from the start of the game. Its mind boggling actually.

This is not rhetorical, but tell me how many teams since the merger were able to play that way for four quarters game in and game out and were successful with it for more than three seasons? Remember to use your definition of success as making the championship game for your answer.

Most teams run their offense with a sense of urgency to produce points I would say. Pete seems to run his more so with clock management in mind. I dont know of any other team in the NFL that runs the clock down to 1 before the snap. When I talk about being aggressive and up tempo, i'm not referring to a 2 minute drill.

This is way overblown. AgentDIB went through a couple of games from last season and one of them was requested specifically since the perception was that it happened a lot in that game and the amount was less than ten percent of our snaps. There are plenty of other teams that run the clock down to zero before the snap. It has admittedly been two years since I had Sunday Ticket and watched seven games a Sunday, but the running down the clock to zero was not uncommon.

My point was that the type of up tempo offense that Let Russ Cook advocates want is only effective for two or three seasons. The only one that maintained longer was the Bills with Kelly, Thomas and Reed and they only lasted as a top ten offense for five seasons until they were figured out. Wyche didn't go up tempo until the Bengals had already been a top ten offense for three years, and that was only effective for two years (only got past divisional round once). Kelly's up tempo offense, which was highly touted coming in, had no playoff victories.

The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.

 

[Tinamedina]

I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.

Performance? Pete Carroll calls the plays, it holds the team back and then Russell Wilson has to bail out pete Carroll, that's how it works.

 

[Tinamedina]

All I have is 1 question can the Seahawks make it without Russell Wilson? Yes or no?


(You know the answer to this question, which means all of you anti Russell Wilson people, need to stop being delusional.)

 

[BASF]

I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.

Performance? Pete Carroll calls the plays, it holds the team back and then Russell Wilson has to bail out pete Carroll, that's how it works.

Pete Carroll does not call the plays. He has overridden the play call from the offensive coordinator on occasion when he felt it was warranted. When it doesn't work, he admits it in the press conferences. When it does work, he does not take the credit for it, because that is the type of man he is. Why spread misinformation?

 

[BASF]

All I have is 1 question can the Seahawks make it without Russell Wilson? Yes or no?


(You know the answer to this question, which means all of you anti Russell Wilson people, need to stop being delusional.)

Who exactly is anti-Wilson? I can think of two people on this board who are, and I honestly don't know if they even post anymore. Some of you sound like a Twilight message board with Team Edward and Team Jacob.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.

Performance? Pete Carroll calls the plays, it holds the team back and then Russell Wilson has to bail out pete Carroll, that's how it works.

He literally does not call the plays.

 

[Own The West]

Before you throw stones, climb off your Wilson bandwagon for just a moment and look at what I actually said - all of it is true, and none of it suggests Wilson is not a great QB, because he is. However, the other side of the coin is not scoring early, and that does need to be addressed.

Scoring early has been an issue for 10 years now though. Carroll's mantra is you cant win the game in the 1st quarter. When I see Wilson take over the game in the 4th quarter because he has to, its hard for me to lay the majority of blame on him for the sluggish offense in the previous quarters.

There seems to be this myth that Russell -- in defiance of his coaches -- decides to be more aggressive and starts calling (or making up?) his own plays when we are down in the 4th quarter to lead us to victory.

First off, there's only one playbook, so he's not running anything that the coaches didn't put in and the team has practiced ad nauseum already.

Second, I'd argue that he's not being more aggressive at all. Early in the game he's holding the ball and waiting for a sure thing or some homerun play to manifest to 'win' the game in the first half. THAT is aggressive -- to the point of being suicidal.

Down late in the game, he's looking to extend the drive by any means possible. He realizes he might not get another chance, so he's hyper-focused on moving the chains if the homerun is not there. What if he started the game with that mindset?

And what if he handed the ball off half the time so the opposing defense was tired in the 4th quarter instead of fresh from resting in Zones and 3-and-outs they didn't have to work for?

 

[chris98251]

This is not rhetorical, but tell me how many teams since the merger were able to play that way for four quarters game in and game out and were successful with it for more than three seasons? Remember to use your definition of success as making the championship game for your answer.

Most teams run their offense with a sense of urgency to produce points I would say. Pete seems to run his more so with clock management in mind. I dont know of any other team in the NFL that runs the clock down to 1 before the snap. When I talk about being aggressive and up tempo, i'm not referring to a 2 minute drill.

This is way overblown. AgentDIB went through a couple of games from last season and one of them was requested specifically since the perception was that it happened a lot in that game and the amount was less than ten percent of our snaps. There are plenty of other teams that run the clock down to zero before the snap. It has admittedly been two years since I had Sunday Ticket and watched seven games a Sunday, but the running down the clock to zero was not uncommon.

My point was that the type of up tempo offense that Let Russ Cook advocates want is only effective for two or three seasons. The only one that maintained longer was the Bills with Kelly, Thomas and Reed and they only lasted as a top ten offense for five seasons until they were figured out. Wyche didn't go up tempo until the Bengals had already been a top ten offense for three years, and that was only effective for two years (only got past divisional round once). Kelly's up tempo offense, which was highly touted coming in, had no playoff victories.

The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.

Data, every play I see the clock is at 0:01 or 0:00 at snaps, hell even in hurry up they seem to wait till 0:01.

If that is mid tier tell me what teams are at -0:01 or above.

 

[John63]

Before you throw stones, climb off your Wilson bandwagon for just a moment and look at what I actually said - all of it is true, and none of it suggests Wilson is not a great QB, because he is. However, the other side of the coin is not scoring early, and that does need to be addressed.

Scoring early has been an issue for 10 years now though. Carroll's mantra is you cant win the game in the 1st quarter. When I see Wilson take over the game in the 4th quarter because he has to, its hard for me to lay the majority of blame on him for the sluggish offense in the previous quarters.

There seems to be this myth that Russell -- in defiance of his coaches -- decides to be more aggressive and starts calling (or making up?) his own plays when we are down in the 4th quarter to lead us to victory.

First off, there's only one playbook, so he's not running anything that the coaches didn't put in and the team has practiced ad nauseum already.

Second, I'd argue that he's not being more aggressive at all. Early in the game he's holding the ball and waiting for a sure thing or some homerun play to manifest to 'win' the game in the first half. THAT is aggressive -- to the point of being suicidal.

Down late in the game, he's looking to extend the drive by any means possible. He realizes he might not get another chance, so he's hyper-focused on moving the chains if the homerun is not there. What if he started the game with that mindset?

And what if he handed the ball off half the time so the opposing defense was tired in the 4th quarter instead of fresh from resting in Zones and 3-and-outs they didn't have to work for?

some of what you say is true, however some is not. in the 4th qtr when we need it things do change, tempo changes, plays are called at the line not from the sidelines, we get to the line much earlier, we vary our tempo and when we snap the ball. adn a variety of other things. I do agree until then we play more tentative, playing not to make mistakes, playing passive until we have no choice. PC has said he wants to run, control the clock keep it close and win in the end. Well the main reason that can work is because he has a Qb like Wilson. Not all Qbs cold excel with that philosophy. Problem is it leave little margin for error so any little thing can throw it off. Such as a penalty.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Most teams run their offense with a sense of urgency to produce points I would say. Pete seems to run his more so with clock management in mind. I dont know of any other team in the NFL that runs the clock down to 1 before the snap. When I talk about being aggressive and up tempo, i'm not referring to a 2 minute drill.

This is way overblown. AgentDIB went through a couple of games from last season and one of them was requested specifically since the perception was that it happened a lot in that game and the amount was less than ten percent of our snaps. There are plenty of other teams that run the clock down to zero before the snap. It has admittedly been two years since I had Sunday Ticket and watched seven games a Sunday, but the running down the clock to zero was not uncommon.

My point was that the type of up tempo offense that Let Russ Cook advocates want is only effective for two or three seasons. The only one that maintained longer was the Bills with Kelly, Thomas and Reed and they only lasted as a top ten offense for five seasons until they were figured out. Wyche didn't go up tempo until the Bengals had already been a top ten offense for three years, and that was only effective for two years (only got past divisional round once). Kelly's up tempo offense, which was highly touted coming in, had no playoff victories.

The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.

Data, every play I see the clock is at 0:01 or 0:00 at snaps, hell even in hurry up they seem to wait till 0:01.

If that is mid tier tell me what teams are at -0:01 or above.

Your anecdotal evidence is inaccurate. Seattle in 2020 took 27.72 seconds per play on average. The NFL as a whole was at 27.33 seconds. Green Bay was the slowest at 31.09 seconds, and Dallas was quickest at 23.59.

If we're talking neutral situation, Seattle was the 22nd fastest at 30.68 seconds on average, compared to the slowest team in Green Bay at 32.83 seconds.

This narrative isn't held up by facts, it's held up by being repeated ad nauseum. If you only see the ball being snapped at the end of the play clock, you're not watching all the plays.

Again, data for 2020 and previous years via Football Outsiders: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... stats/2020

 

[chris98251]

This is way overblown. AgentDIB went through a couple of games from last season and one of them was requested specifically since the perception was that it happened a lot in that game and the amount was less than ten percent of our snaps. There are plenty of other teams that run the clock down to zero before the snap. It has admittedly been two years since I had Sunday Ticket and watched seven games a Sunday, but the running down the clock to zero was not uncommon.

My point was that the type of up tempo offense that Let Russ Cook advocates want is only effective for two or three seasons. The only one that maintained longer was the Bills with Kelly, Thomas and Reed and they only lasted as a top ten offense for five seasons until they were figured out. Wyche didn't go up tempo until the Bengals had already been a top ten offense for three years, and that was only effective for two years (only got past divisional round once). Kelly's up tempo offense, which was highly touted coming in, had no playoff victories.

The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.

Data, every play I see the clock is at 0:01 or 0:00 at snaps, hell even in hurry up they seem to wait till 0:01.

If that is mid tier tell me what teams are at -0:01 or above.

Your anecdotal evidence is inaccurate. Seattle in 2020 took 27.72 seconds per play on average. The NFL as a whole was at 27.33 seconds. Green Bay was the slowest at 31.09 seconds, and Dallas was quickest at 23.59.

If we're talking neutral situation, Seattle was the 22nd fastest at 30.68 seconds on average, compared to the slowest team in Green Bay at 32.83 seconds.

This narrative isn't held up by facts, it's held up by being repeated ad nauseum. If you only see the ball being snapped at the end of the play clock, you're not watching all the plays.

Again, data for 2020 and previous years via Football Outsiders: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... stats/2020

I watch every game, almost every snap is at the 0:00 TO 0:03 mark. I am sure many others here can attest to this, it is also a symptom of how slow we get plays in and how long it takes Wilson to call the play and make line calls as well. But it's so predictable that D lineman can almost go ay 0:01 and never worry about a encroachment call.

Possibly a reason Wilson takes so many hits also, the D line and blitzers can time themselves and get off before our offense does. How many plays have we had where people in game day say they came across before the snap or were in the zone? It's because they can time the snap, they have a play clock to look at also.

 

[KiwiHawk]

The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.

Data, every play I see the clock is at 0:01 or 0:00 at snaps, hell even in hurry up they seem to wait till 0:01.

If that is mid tier tell me what teams are at -0:01 or above.

Your anecdotal evidence is inaccurate. Seattle in 2020 took 27.72 seconds per play on average. The NFL as a whole was at 27.33 seconds. Green Bay was the slowest at 31.09 seconds, and Dallas was quickest at 23.59.

If we're talking neutral situation, Seattle was the 22nd fastest at 30.68 seconds on average, compared to the slowest team in Green Bay at 32.83 seconds.

This narrative isn't held up by facts, it's held up by being repeated ad nauseum. If you only see the ball being snapped at the end of the play clock, you're not watching all the plays.

Again, data for 2020 and previous years via Football Outsiders: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... stats/2020

I watch every game, almost every snap is at the 0:00 TO 0:03 mark. I am sure many others here can attest to this, it is also a symptom of how slow we get plays in and how long it takes Wilson to call the play and make line calls as well. But it's so predictable that D lineman can almost go ay 0:01 and never worry about a encroachment call.

Possibly a reason Wilson takes so many hits also, the D line and blitzers can time themselves and get off before our offense does. How many plays have we had where people in game day say they came across before the snap or were in the zone? It's because they can time the snap, they have a play clock to look at also.

And yet Wilson is literally the guy who signals when to snap the ball. If he wants to take fewer hits, and if snapping the ball with a second left is getting him hit, then he has the power to call for the snap at 2 seconds, or 3, or 5. It's literally his job.

 

[pittpnthrs]

The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.

Data, every play I see the clock is at 0:01 or 0:00 at snaps, hell even in hurry up they seem to wait till 0:01.

If that is mid tier tell me what teams are at -0:01 or above.

Your anecdotal evidence is inaccurate. Seattle in 2020 took 27.72 seconds per play on average. The NFL as a whole was at 27.33 seconds. Green Bay was the slowest at 31.09 seconds, and Dallas was quickest at 23.59.

If we're talking neutral situation, Seattle was the 22nd fastest at 30.68 seconds on average, compared to the slowest team in Green Bay at 32.83 seconds.

This narrative isn't held up by facts, it's held up by being repeated ad nauseum. If you only see the ball being snapped at the end of the play clock, you're not watching all the plays.

Again, data for 2020 and previous years via Football Outsiders: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... stats/2020

I watch every game, almost every snap is at the 0:00 TO 0:03 mark. I am sure many others here can attest to this, it is also a symptom of how slow we get plays in and how long it takes Wilson to call the play and make line calls as well. But it's so predictable that D lineman can almost go ay 0:01 and never worry about a encroachment call.

Possibly a reason Wilson takes so many hits also, the D line and blitzers can time themselves and get off before our offense does. How many plays have we had where people in game day say they came across before the snap or were in the zone? It's because they can time the snap, they have a play clock to look at also.

The data doesnt take Pete Ball into account. There's always two halves of the season for the Seahawks, the half where Carroll doesnt infringe upon the OC's plans, and the other half in which Pete takes over and forces his scheme on the team (running the play clock to 1 before the snap and falling into clock management mode). It happens every single year and i'm not sure why you are being so defiant about it.

 

[pittpnthrs]

And yet Wilson is literally the guy who signals when to snap the ball. If he wants to take fewer hits, and if snapping the ball with a second left is getting him hit, then he has the power to call for the snap at 2 seconds, or 3, or 5. It's literally his job.

Wilson also has a cadence he goes through. With the plays coming in so late, he would literally need to be an auctioneer to get the ball snapped at 5 seconds.

Getting the plays in and snapping the ball with no time on the play clock is a Pete issue, not Russ. Its Pete meddling with the offense and dissecting every play the OC calls and deciding if he's going to override it or not. If it was Wilson, it would have been corrected by now, but its every single season.

 

[Maelstrom787]

And yet Wilson is literally the guy who signals when to snap the ball. If he wants to take fewer hits, and if snapping the ball with a second left is getting him hit, then he has the power to call for the snap at 2 seconds, or 3, or 5. It's literally his job.

Wilson also has a cadence he goes through. With the plays coming in so late, he would literally need to be an auctioneer to get the ball snapped at 5 seconds.

Getting the plays in and snapping the ball with no time on the play clock is a Pete issue, not Russ. Its Pete meddling with the offense and dissecting every play the OC calls and deciding if he's going to override it or not. If it was Wilson, it would have been corrected by now, but its every single season.

Do you have anything to back that up? This meddling angle is starting to sound almost comical, like he's a cartoon villain stealing the play call.

 

[AgentDib]

It's really about wishful thinking. If Pete is the comical villain meddling with the play calls constantly then there's room for easy improvement. If instead he occasionally shields his OC and players from criticism by blaming himself for failed plays then everything is a lot more complicated and there aren't easy solutions.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

And yet Wilson is literally the guy who signals when to snap the ball. If he wants to take fewer hits, and if snapping the ball with a second left is getting him hit, then he has the power to call for the snap at 2 seconds, or 3, or 5. It's literally his job.

Wilson also has a cadence he goes through. With the plays coming in so late, he would literally need to be an auctioneer to get the ball snapped at 5 seconds.

Getting the plays in and snapping the ball with no time on the play clock is a Pete issue, not Russ. Its Pete meddling with the offense and dissecting every play the OC calls and deciding if he's going to override it or not. If it was Wilson, it would have been corrected by now, but its every single season.

Wat

Things like pace and tempo/hurry up, etc are things that are not only discussed each and every week when the coaches and players are in their meeting rooms, it's also practiced ad naseum.

The run the clock all the way down each play allowing Russell to survey the defense and make protection and play changes if necessary? That's as much Russell as it is Pete and the O-Coordinator.

Now it is what Pete wants as far as pace of the offense/ball control, but Russell is in on those meetings, so no it's not like Pete is meddling in game and that's throwing off Russell because he's totally surprised and confused.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Pete is the coach. He is also de-facto the head of the organization.

The buck stops with him.

Everything is his fault. Full stop, no sarcasm.

The idea that Wilson or anyone else has the power to change this is laughable. Pete is a notorious control freak. This is part of the problem given he is an aging coach clinging to an outdated football philosophy and bringing nothing new to the table anymore.

If Pete could simply be circumvented, then he would have been. It took Wilson literally threatening his coach and organization to effect any change in the offense at all...and even then that was not enough as Pete clamped down on the offense at the 3/4 point again.

There is a weird push to pile as much onto Wilson as possible.

People even wanting to push a narrative that Wilson can only throw long and cannot throw over the middle now, or refuses to. Nevermind that Wilson seems to magically do this regularly at the end of games when we absolutely need to make a comeback.

It does not matter who is strong or weak in certain areas. Pete sets the rules, likely picks the players, and determines the gameplans. (Or lack thereof) He is literally at fault for anything that goes wrong, by definition as the organization head.

Wilson is not without his fault or faults. But when we are draining the clock down regularly the first 3/4 of the game...that is on Pete, because Pete believes that limiting offensive touches by the opponent is some sort of winning strategy. Pete also believes that keeping games close is an advantage for us. This is his doctrine and his strategy. When it continues to happen and does not help us..it is absolutely his fault.

Pete is the reason this team has been a playoff team for years (mainly through Wilson) and he is the reason this team has failed to meet expectations in the playoffs for years. This is all on him.