The one position we've never had a "star" at.

[Ozzy]

There's no doubt that from 2012-2014, we wouldn't have had the success that we did had we not had Russell Wilson as our quarterback. He was the perfect QB for the type of team that Pete had put together, a top 3 defense and a run first, low risk offense. Russell came up with some absolutely clutch plays. No way we get within sneezing distance of either SB without RW.

But by the same token, that defense supported Russell in his early years, both statistically and otherwise, and once the LOB started to disintegrate in 2015 and when we had to rely more on Russell to carry the team, we never came close to achieving the same heights that we did during the LOB years, posting a 3-6 record in the playoffs and never making it out of the divisional round.

But I don't think it's fair to say that because we didn't have the same success he wasn't good. We had massive roster problems for years and russ played his ass off. I'm not sure anyone else would've taken those teams much further or won playoff games. The defense was terrible and Tom Brady probably goes 3-6 as well.

Anyway I appreciate the civil debate which is how it should be. It's fun bantering and disagreeing and while I disagree I respect the take and thr thoughts behind your side of it.

 

[RiverDog]

But I don't think it's fair to say that because we didn't have the same success he wasn't good. We had massive roster problems for years and russ played his ass off. I'm not sure anyone else would've taken those teams much further or won playoff games. The defense was terrible and Tom Brady probably goes 3-6 as well.

Anyway I appreciate the civil debate which is how it should be. It's fun bantering and disagreeing and while I disagree I respect the take and thr thoughts behind your side of it.

No one, and certainly not me, ever said that Russell "wasn't good". This current debate has been about whether or not he's 'elite'. IMO Russell was phenomenal. And yes, Russ played his ass off, but the fact remains that the team wasn't nearly as good with just a very good defense than it was with best defense in the league and arguably the best in this century.

In 2015-18, we still had some very good defenses, between the #2 and #11 ranked D, but we could never get out of the divisional round of the playoffs. If we are going to credit Russell with a large role in our success from 2012-14, we have to lay some of the blame for our demise on his inability to pick up the slack like other 'elite' QB's, ie Rodgers and Brady, have done with much more inferior defenses. That's one of the reasons why I don't consider Russell 'elite.' He needs a stronger supporting cast than Rodgers and Brady.

10-4 about the civility of our disagreements, and I'm glad that it hasn't escaped the attention of a moderator. It's nice that a mod is actually recognizing and complementing posters instead of just issuing reprimands.

 

[rcaido]

There's no doubt that from 2012-2014, we wouldn't have had the success that we did had we not had Russell Wilson as our quarterback. He was the perfect QB for the type of team that Pete had put together, a top 3 defense and a run first, low risk offense. Russell came up with some absolutely clutch plays. No way we get within sneezing distance of either SB without RW.

But by the same token, that defense supported Russell in his early years, both statistically and otherwise, and once the LOB started to disintegrate in 2015 and when we had to rely more on Russell to carry the team, we never came close to achieving the same heights that we did during the LOB years, posting a 3-6 record in the playoffs and never making it out of the divisional round.

3-4 playoff record not 3-6 after the two superbowl in the 10s.

Why does Rodgers & Brees, gets a pass for being elite in 10's then?

Brees had 3 straight losing seasons. 4-6 in the playoffs
Rodgers after his superbowl win was 7-8 in the playoffs

2016-2019 the Seahawk talents wasn't very good. We had no business even being in the playoffs and was suppose to be rebuild years. Wilson was the xfactor and had a chance to win every game. I think we only had like 3 or 4 game in that span we got blown out by more then a td.

 

[RiverDog]

3-4 playoff record not 3-6 after the two superbowl in the 10s.

Why does Rodgers & Brees, gets a pass for being elite in 10's then?

Brees had 3 straight losing seasons. 4-6 in the playoffs

Rodgers after his superbowl win was 7-8 in the playoffs

2016-2019 the Seahawk talents wasn't very good. We had no business even being in the playoffs and was suppose to be rebuild years. Wilson was the xfactor and had a chance to win every game. I think we only had like 3 or 4 game in that span we got blown out by more then a td.

In the 2010's, yes. I was looking at our total record since the SB, which includes the 2020 loss to the Rams and the 2021 loss to the Niners, although to be fair, Russ wasn't with the team in 2021, so our post SB playoff record with him as a QB was 3-5.

The reason why I consider Rodgers 'elite' in the 2010's is because he won 2 league MVP's and a SB MVP during that span. Both Rodgers and Brees were statistically better than Russell. Brees led the league in passing yardage in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016. Russell never finished any higher than 6th. On the current all-time passing yardage leaders, Brees ranks 2nd next to the GOAT, Rodgers currently ranks 9th, 2nd highest active next to Matt Ryan. Russell ranks 21st. Neither Brees or Rodgers got 'passes.'

In 2016, although it wasn't LOB quality, we still had a very good defense, ranked 5th in total yards. In 2017 we were ranked 11th, 2018 16th. While those aren't great by any means, they are still average to above average, so it's not accurate to say that our talent wasn't very good. Aaron Rodgers took his team to the NFCCG with the 18th ranked D in both 2016 and 2019.

This is a circular argument, so I'm done defending my opinion. If you don't like it, fine. But I have my reasons.

 

[rcaido]

In the 2010's, yes. I was looking at our total record since the SB, which includes the 2020 loss to the Rams and the 2021 loss to the Niners, although to be fair, Russ wasn't with the team in 2021, so our post SB playoff record with him as a QB was 3-5.

The reason why I consider Rodgers 'elite' in the 2010's is because he won 2 league MVP's and a SB MVP during that span. Both Rodgers and Brees were statistically better than Russell. Brees led the league in passing yardage in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016. Russell never finished any higher than 6th. On the current all-time passing yardage leaders, Brees ranks 2nd next to the GOAT, Rodgers currently ranks 9th, 2nd highest active next to Matt Ryan. Russell ranks 21st.

In 2016, although it wasn't LOB quality, we still had a very good defense, ranked 5th in total yards. In 2017 we were ranked 11th, 2018 16th. While those aren't great by any means, they are average to above average, so it's not accurate to say that our talent wasn't that good. Aaron Rodgers took his team to the NFCCG with the 18th ranked D in both 2016 and 2019.

Wilson had the most combine TDs in 4 year span from 2017-2020. Hes been in more superbowls then those two. He is 3rd all time rushing yards by QBs.

Brees career playoff record is 9-9 & Rodgers 11-10. Wilson is 9-7 with way less years.

Wilson stats is very comparable to the best. Probably the most efficient QB of all time.

As for talent, i meant for offense. Not much receiving offensive threats to work with. Baldwin was probably a #1 receiver for 3 seasons and Locket had maybe 2 seasons in that decade. Our injury prone RB didn't help either.