The one position we've never had a "star" at.

FattyKnuckle

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I am trying tp figure out if you are arguing that Krieg and Hass were not stars because Wilson was better than them?
Not at all, that's not even remotely the topic. I'm pointing out that listing several of our top QBs over the years but deliberately leaving out Wilson, who was elite (which so many people here constantly asserted whenever any media personality even remotely hinted otherwise, but now somehow that didn't happen) here for several years, is just butthurt silliness. However, I would take peak Wilson over every other QB at their peak and so would most of the board if they weren't disingenuously arguing against his having been elite while here. He was better in his time in Seattle than any of those. There's maybe an apples/oranges argument to make for Zorn because of the eras in which both he and Wilson played. I would still give Wilson the nod in a tie, 1a 1b type of thing.
 

FrodosFinger

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Mike Tice was a freak back in the 80’s til he blew his knee out
 

BASF

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Not at all, that's not even remotely the topic. I'm pointing out that listing several of our top QBs over the years but deliberately leaving out Wilson, who was elite (which so many people here constantly asserted whenever any media personality even remotely hinted otherwise, but now somehow that didn't happen) here for several years, is just butthurt silliness. However, I would take peak Wilson over every other QB at their peak and so would most of the board if they weren't disingenuously arguing against his having been elite while here. He was better in his time in Seattle than any of those. There's maybe an apples/oranges argument to make for Zorn because of the eras in which both he and Wilson played. I would still give Wilson the nod in a tie, 1a 1b type of thing.
The topic was positions we have not had stars in. One poster said QB, which you replied wss silly. Which I completely agree with, as I agree with Largentixa about three of our QBs having been stars. Then you replied to Largentixa saying it was even sillier, because I guess you missed that he mentioned Wilson, because you knocked both of the others as not being as good as Wilson. Which is why I asked if you were arguing that they weren't stars. Zorn wasn't someone that made the sports highlight shows often to be a star, but I saw plenty of Krieg and Hass on sports highlight shows. I may have a different perspective though since I grew up in Niners/Raiders country, so I don't know if local Seattle media treated Zorn as a star or not. However, on the national stage, he was pretty much just the guy throwing to a hall of fame receiver.
 
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RiverDog

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The topic was positions we have not had stars in. One poster said QB, which you replied wss silly. Which I completely agree with, as I agree with Largentixa about three of our QBs having been stars. Then you replied to Largentixa saying it was even sillier, because I guess you missed that he mentioned Wilson, because you knocked both of the others as not being as good as Wilson. Which is why I asked if you were arguing that they weren't stars. Zorn wasn't someone that made the sports highlight shows often to be a star, but I saw plenty of Krieg and Hass on sports highligjt shows. I may have a different perspective though since I grew up in Niners/Raiders country, so I don't know if local Seattle media treated Zorn as a star or not. However, on the national stage, he was pretty much just the guy throwing to a hall of fame receiver.
Take it from me: The Seattle media was gaga over Jim Zorn.

The Seattle media and sports fans in 1976 were like a thirsty cowboy leading a horse through a desert. Outside of a handful of Sonics players, there was a huge void of which Jim Zorn stepped into. His wholesome, bible quoting, milk swigging psyche coupled with with his good looks was exactly what the public was looking for in a home town hero. He was humble yet he didn't shy away from the camera. He didn't attract a lot of attention nation wide, but he was one of Seattle's first star sports personalities.
 

keasley45

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So

Where are you getting 2.5minutes?

The average time for the 2022 (28:35sec)
2016 (29:47sec) 1min 12 sec
2017 (29:19sec) 43sec

So actually 2022 had more time of possession if you do the math. Also the math adds 94 catches not 84.

Its also silly to just go by catches. What about the other metrics like yards & TDs? Rather have 5 more TD's then 20catches.
Should have been 1.5. You are leaving out 2015 at over 31 minutes. Was a back of napkin average. Was going back to Grahams first year. Thanks for the correction.

Still, at around 1.5 minutes x16 negates most of the 17 game advantage. - 24 minutes additional.

And why catches? For the same reason rushers are measured by yards. You can have a guy that gets a ton of attempts. High attempts, low yards isn't good efficiency.

You can have a guy that's a redzone threat but not efficient between the 20s (tall - jump ball types). Or a connection that isn't great because of bad throws or hard hands.

And catches account for success of a play. Just because a guy doesn't grab 15 tds in a season doesn't make him ineffective if he has a ton of grabs overall and is part of sustaining the offense. However, there have been players who have racked up Tds in a seasonbut not been as key a component of an offense overall.
 

keasley45

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Can you expound on what you mean?
I was being sarcastic. I can give Russ credit for being the best physically gifted player at qb in Seahawks history. I can say he was the most gifted thrower. The most gifted runner. The most gifted at creating magic. The most gritty.

I can't honestly say he was the most expert at playing the position of QB. Why? Because the position requires the qb to do things within the context of a play, within the parameters of a team and to leverage the talent and expertise of thise around him for the teams benefit.

Krieg and Hass could 'beautiful mind' their way down a football field like Russel Crowe, but just didn't have the wheels, strength or accuracy at times to overcome their respective deficiencies. Doesn't mean they weren't great or in some ways, superior to Russ.

Often with Russ, he leveraged those around him for the benefit of making a play that he orchestrated, but not the play that he and his 10 teammates practiced for.

Teams work to their max when all 11 guys are doing their part and reap the reward. In Seattle, under Russ, ADB, Kearse, the O line, whoever it may be on a guven play could do EXACTLY what they were supposed to for that play to succeed and it be for not, because Russ didn't when he was supposed to. The fact that he had the physical gifts to erase his mistake and write his own ending over and over and over again and often in spectacular fashion doesn't take away the fact that often, save for those few guys that he had a connection with like Tyler and Doug, the effort and expertise of his teammates was often wasted play to play. That's the source of the resentment that grew towards him from the LOB and others over the years at watching their efforts squandered when he woukd screw up. But then see him get all the accolades when he'd pull a rabbit out his butt in the end and make the ESPN highlight reel. Sure, celebrate him overcoming, but also be critical of the failure. That didn't happen in Seattle and it's what led to the ultimate failure of the team and his departure.

There are times when the statement ' team x will only go as far as player y will take them' is a nod to the player's greatness. At other times it's acknowldgement that the team's ceiling is capped by a player's ceiling. In Russ's case, it was both, sometimes year to year. Sometimes game to game.

So I can't get behind a statement like 'he carried the team for all those years' when the team was left to wait and set aside their craft while he played the game his own way.

The dude was incredible. But if ever there was a player that deserved an * and a footnote to account for the unique circumstances under which he played, it's #3.

And yes, with that, he's still in my book the best player we had at the spot.
 

Mick063

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When Russ could create miracle escapes to prolong plays, he was damn good. One of the most exciting players in the league to watch for sure. Further, that end game toss to defeat Green Bay in the NFC Championship was about as clutch as you can get.

Having said that, when Russ lost his quickness, he became the "three and out" king, though he didn't lose his elusiveness overnight. In the fourth quarter, when DL legs became fatigued, he was able to pull his fair share of games out of the fire. But when the opposing DL had fresh legs in the first half? Wilson's early career magic was gone. Completely gone. The edge guys and linebackers could easily keep up with him. It took fourth quarter fatigue to finally tip the table toward something approaching a young Russ advantage. It really is the defining explanation for his fourth quarter success.

Pete tapped Wilson for every bit he was worth. I doubt that Payton can get much more out of him although Russ does look much slimmer this off season. I think the chubby ridicule finally started to get through to him. It will be a very interesting to see if Russ got some of that quickness back because this is the leanest he has looked in years. Give him his escapability back and magic can happen. The problem is that it takes some time and continuity to get the rest of the offense to adjust to that style of play. The Broncos will get their fair share of sacks, holding, and illegal-man-down-field while trying to align with a style which commonly features holding on to the ball too long. In other words, a lot of three and outs. But perhaps a few fourth quarter comebacks to compensate for it. He will definitely have Denver fans on the edge of their seat because Russ has a long track record of horrible first halves and fourth quarter comebacks.
 
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keasley45

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When Russ could create miracle escapes to prolong plays, he was damn good. One of the most exciting players in the league to watch for sure. Further, that end game toss to defeat Green Bay in the NFC Championship was about as clutch as you can get.

Having said that, when Russ lost his quickness, he became the "three and out" king, though he didn't lose his elusiveness overnight. In the fourth quarter, when DL legs became fatigued, he was able to pull his fair share of games out of the fire. But when the opposing DL had fresh legs in the first half? Wilson's early career magic was gone. Completely gone. The edge guys and linebackers could easily keep up with him. It took fourth quarter fatigue to finally tip the table toward something approaching a young Russ advantage.

Pete tapped Wilson for every bit he was worth. I doubt that Payton can get much more out of him although Russ does look much slimmer this off season. I think the chubby ridicule finally started to get through to him. It will be a very interesting to see if Russ got some of that quickness back because this is the leanest he has looked in years. Give him his escapability back and magic can happen. The problem is that it takes some time and continuity to get the rest of the offense to adjust to that style of play. The Broncos will get their fair share of sacks, holding, and illegal-man-down-field while trying to align with a style which commonly features holding on to the ball too long. In other words, a lot of three and outs.
👍🏼

I just don't know if anything has necessarily gotten through to him. Slimming down is about the only thing he can visibly do to show he's engaged. And tapping into the belief among many that what hurt him last year was just that he was fat and slow, gets him some positive PR points and a boost in confidence, now that folks are claiming 'he's back'.

That last part - him needing to hear it... with the benefit of hindsight, looking back on the stories that Pete protected him from negativity gives you some insight into just how much Russ NEEDS validation and those around him to believe he's capable. Last year, the world was basically out to destroy him. This year, step one is Jim looking to ride whatever wave of positivity he can into the start of the season.
 

rcaido

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Should have been 1.5. You are leaving out 2015 at over 31 minutes. Was a back of napkin average. Was going back to Grahams first year. Thanks for the correction.

Still, at around 1.5 minutes x16 negates most of the 17 game advantage. - 24 minutes additional.

And why catches? For the same reason rushers are measured by yards. You can have a guy that gets a ton of attempts. High attempts, low yards isn't good efficiency.

You can have a guy that's a redzone threat but not efficient between the 20s (tall - jump ball types). Or a connection that isn't great because of bad throws or hard hands.

And catches account for success of a play. Just because a guy doesn't grab 15 tds in a season doesn't make him ineffective if he has a ton of grabs overall and is part of sustaining the offense. However, there have been players who have racked up Tds in a seasonbut not been as key a component of an offense overall.
Why would i need to add 2015? That's was the first year when Graham arrived and was injured 1/3 of the season. I already gave you the stats and time of possession in 2016 & 2017.

It really sound like you're just cherry picking on the receptions. Yes catches matter but so do the other metrics. That's why i added those other metrics of the TE. Catches, yards, & TDs.

You made it sound like the 2022 TE group was the most effective and not even close....Yet the stats show, they were on par on those two years...Just that in 2017 there were 50% more TDs. 111 catches to 94, that's only 17 catches difference that's about 16%. I would take the TDs over those catches and i think most objective people would too.
 

Ozzy

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I think Russ was our first elite guy at the position. WE've had some good ones but not sure any of them were elite at their best.

TE is such a hard position to land an elite guy because there just aren't many of them.
 

chris98251

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I think Russ was our first elite guy at the position. WE've had some good ones but not sure any of them were elite at their best.

TE is such a hard position to land an elite guy because there just aren't many of them.
Moon and nobody comes close, if we could have got him and had him in his prime there isn't a passing record that he would not own in the NFL given we had a coach that didn't hate throwing the ball like Erickson or Holmgren maybe even Pete. Knox would have used him when needed not worked a offense through him.

Christian Fauria, Mike Tice, were on our roster, we may have not used them to their best ability but they were damn good after moving on.
 

Mix

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Right Guard, Right Tackle, TE
 

RiverDog

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I think Russ was our first elite guy at the position. WE've had some good ones but not sure any of them were elite at their best.

TE is such a hard position to land an elite guy because there just aren't many of them.
I'm sorry, but Russell Wilson was never 'elite'. You can't be considered an elite quarterback in this league and not received a single vote for MVP in 10 seasons.

Unless you're a great receiving tight end like Kelce, tight ends don't get a lot of respect, hence not very many are thought of as 'elite.' But they do exist. IMO in addition to Kelce, George Kittle is an elite tight end.
 

rcaido

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I'm sorry, but Russell Wilson was never 'elite'. You can't be considered an elite quarterback in this league and not received a single vote for MVP in 10 seasons.

Unless you're a great receiving tight end like Kelce, tight ends don't get a lot of respect, hence not very many are thought of as 'elite.' But they do exist. IMO in addition to Kelce, George Kittle is an elite tight end.
i disagree. If you're in the top 7 in your position majority of your career and shattered all the NFL records...You're elite
 

RiverDog

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i disagree. If you're in the top 7 in your position majority of your career and shattered all the NFL records...You're elite
Top 7? Majority of career? Shattered "all" NFL records? What records has Russell "shattered"? You have a broad definition of the word "elite."

IMO elite is top 3 or 4 max., like Brady, Brees, Mahomes, and Rodgers. Even if I were to accept your claim that Russell's been top 7 the majority of his career, 7 is reaching.

Quarterbacks dominate the NFL's MVP award. The last time a non QB has won the award was in 2012, which happens to have been Russell's rookie season, when Adrian Peterson won it. There are 50 sports writers that vote on the award each year, and if a quarterback can't garner a single vote in 10 years, he's not elite.
 
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Ozzy

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I'm sorry, but Russell Wilson was never 'elite'. You can't be considered an elite quarterback in this league and not received a single vote for MVP in 10 seasons.

Unless you're a great receiving tight end like Kelce, tight ends don't get a lot of respect, hence not very many are thought of as 'elite.' But they do exist. IMO in addition to Kelce, George Kittle is an elite tight end.
Yeah he was arguably top 2-3 for a stretch and should've won the mvp over Cam as he was better than Cam in almost every way. The voting in the NFL is goofy with only one vote per voter. His first ten years in the league statistically are all time great. His career passer rating, int %, touchdowns and playoff success is near the very top as well. If Russ wasn't elite then I don't know what is at the position. He was terrible last year and may be terrible again but he was an absolute monster in his prime
 

Lagartixa

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Who cares what he did with the Broncos in his 11th season, we're only talking about whether he was elite in his 10 years here. Even still, that's a ridiculous argument. Everyone ages out, pretty much every single GOAT at every single position had their skills erode to the point they weren't the best anymore.

I guess it depends what you mean by "elite." I'd use that to refer to very few QBs at any given time, and I don't think Wilson was ever one of the top two QBs in the league over an entire season. He was in the top ten several times and in the top five once or twice. So a very good QB, at least in Carroll's system, but "elite"?

It's clear to me that Wilson produced a lot more at the QB position than anyone else in Seahawks history. I think adjustment for era brings Krieg closer, but I think Wilson still comes out ahead. In any case, being the best a given team has had is not the same thing as being one of the greatest the league has seen.

If you want to twist the criteria for "elite" so they include Wilson, then you'll also end up including players like, say, 2022 JaGoff, 2021 Prescott and Carr, 2020 Tannehill and Carr, 2019 Carr and Prescott, 2019 Stafford, 2018 Rivers, Ryan, and JaGoff, etc. If you stretch the definition of "elite" so it includes Wilson, you are likely to end up including players like Carr. I don't think even Carr's agent believes Carr has been "elite."
 

FattyKnuckle

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I guess it depends what you mean by "elite." I'd use that to refer to very few QBs at any given time, and I don't think Wilson was ever one of the top two QBs in the league over an entire season. He was in the top ten several times and in the top five once or twice. So a very good QB, at least in Carroll's system, but "elite"?

It's clear to me that Wilson produced a lot more at the QB position than anyone else in Seahawks history. I think adjustment for era brings Krieg closer, but I think Wilson still comes out ahead. In any case, being the best a given team has had is not the same thing as being one of the greatest the league has seen.

If you want to twist the criteria for "elite" so they include Wilson, then you'll also end up including players like, say, 2022 JaGoff, 2021 Prescott and Carr, 2020 Tannehill and Carr, 2019 Carr and Prescott, 2019 Stafford, 2018 Rivers, Ryan, and JaGoff, etc. If you stretch the definition of "elite" so it includes Wilson, you are likely to end up including players like Carr. I don't think even Carr's agent believes Carr has been "elite."
I'm not talking about a single season of Wilson's. Not sure how a discussion of what a QB in Seattle has done has anything to do with that player on another team, nor of how single season performances by other QBs have anything to do with a 10 year body of work, despite the drop-off in his last 2 seasons.
 

RiverDog

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I guess it depends what you mean by "elite." I'd use that to refer to very few QBs at any given time, and I don't think Wilson was ever one of the top two QBs in the league over an entire season. He was in the top ten several times and in the top five once or twice. So a very good QB, at least in Carroll's system, but "elite"?

It's clear to me that Wilson produced a lot more at the QB position than anyone else in Seahawks history. I think adjustment for era brings Krieg closer, but I think Wilson still comes out ahead. In any case, being the best a given team has had is not the same thing as being one of the greatest the league has seen.

If you want to twist the criteria for "elite" so they include Wilson, then you'll also end up including players like, say, 2022 JaGoff, 2021 Prescott and Carr, 2020 Tannehill and Carr, 2019 Carr and Prescott, 2019 Stafford, 2018 Rivers, Ryan, and JaGoff, etc. If you stretch the definition of "elite" so it includes Wilson, you are likely to end up including players like Carr. I don't think even Carr's agent believes Carr has been "elite."
That's where I'm at, too. "Elite" means very few, ie Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Manning, not top 7, of which at one time or another, could include a lot of quarterbacks. Heck, Matt Ryan won an MVP, so if you go by that standard, he should be considered 'elite', too. That's no slight or disrespect on Russell, just that he's not quite at that level.

I do think that Russell is the best quarterback we've ever had, the only QB to take us to two SB's and the only one that has a ring. He played the most important position on the field during the best period of Seahawk football in franchise history.
 
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