Fixing the defense

With today essentially being meltdown Monday, and various threads touching on the ineptitude of the defense, it got me to thinking about the real possibility of whether or not it can be fixed this year. Is it the DC? Is it scheme? Is it personnel?Is it execution?

I think most of us can agree that the DC is part of the problem. The scheme is basically the same one used in its heyday by the LOB. Personnel needs to be upgraded along the d-line obviously and potentially in the secondary. CB could use an upgrade or at least consistently healthy CB's and the presence of Jamal Adams. Execution? The late great John McKay said of his expansion Tampa Bay Buccaneers when asked by a reporter what he thought of his teams execution, "I'm all for it!"

Personally, I think that an infusion of talent on the d-line would help this defense tremendously. From the beginning of the offseason on, we knew this would be an issue. We waited and posted nearly everyday information and speculation about resigning Clowney. All while seeing absolutely nothing added to the d-line other than some draft picks.

Going forward we can anticipate the return of Adams, which will help the overall defense but doesn't address the glaring d-line deficiencies.
Rasheem Green should be back soon. That will be like adding water to a dried up stew but regardless helps somewhat.
Darrell Taylor? How about 2021.
Snacks Harrison will add some excitement but we don't know what kind of an onfield impact he will have.
Michael Kendricks? He knows the system and might be the one who upgrades this unit immediately as much as a healthy Adams.

There obviously isn't much on the free agency scrap heap midway through a season unless they are willing to take a flier on a pass rusher like Mathews.
The only other option is to trade for someone. They don't have the draft capitol to make a significant trade. However they did get Diggs midseason last year for a 5th so I wouldn't be surprised by John Schneider pulling something off. Football is not like baseball at the trade deadline where teams look to jettison players. The right deal for the right player has to come along for a trade to happen.

With personnel acquisition limited by draft capitol and availability, this defense may have to go the rest of the way on a wing and a prayer. Hopefully they figure something out that at least improves the defense from the $#!+show we've been seeing.

There is no fixing it.

We just have to score enough to overcome it.

In my opinion it’s scheme and personnel, I don’t feel like any new DC would change much because the HC is who’s in charge of the scheme. We should at a minimum trade for some decent DE talent. Clay, Dunlap someone anyone!

It's all about the D-line.

If Adams is back and Dunbar's knee can hold up, then the defensive backfield can be good.........but not unless the pass rush is addressed.

How that happens with barely any draft capital or cap space? I have no idea. But that's it, that's the only way this defense can get better seven weeks into the season. D-line, and specifically pass rush help. It's sure as heck not going to happen in it's existing form.

This is an all time awful D-line.

When you have a journeyman and a bust first round pick as your starting ends, you have a problem. Collier is a 2nd or 3rd string on most teams. Mayowa is a rotational end. We have 0 1st string DEs on this team and it shows.

If it was personnel, we wouldn't have seen this last year.

Last year the excuse was we had no safeties.

Now the excuse is the DL.

Plenty of defenses with less talent have at least not been the worst in history against the pass. When you are this bad, there are plenty of excuses but generally, it means the guy in charge is the problem.

In this case, the DC. This all only started once Norton got here.

The longer he has been here the more entrenched the results have gotten and the worse they have become.

Before, letting teams come back into the RZ regularly in under 2 min was a before the half or 2 min warning thing. Now those are under 1 minute and we regularly allow teams to march into the RZ in 2 minutes or less.

This is a symptom of Norton.

Sgt. Largent":2z4nk8dm said:

It's all about the D-line.

If Adams is back and Dunbar's knee can hold up, then the defensive backfield can be good.........but not unless the pass rush is addressed.

How that happens with barely any draft capital or cap space? I have no idea. But that's it, that's the only way this defense can get better seven weeks into the season. D-line, and specifically pass rush help. It's sure as heck not going to happen in it's existing form.

This is an all time awful D-line.

Click to expand...

Murray dropped back 48 times last night and we got 1 pressure on him. One. Uno. Single. What an embarassment.

https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status ... 2921006080

TwistedHusky":1y0smu9x said:

If it was personnel, we wouldn't have seen this last year.

Last year the excuse was we had no safeties.

Now the excuse is the DL.

Plenty of defenses with less talent have at least not been the worst in history against the pass. When you are this bad, there are plenty of excuses but generally, it means the guy in charge is the problem.

In this case, the DC. This all only started once Norton got here.

The longer he has been here the more entrenched the results have gotten and the worse they have become.

Before, letting teams come back into the RZ regularly in under 2 min was a before the half or 2 min warning thing. Now those are under 1 minute and we regularly allow teams to march into the RZ in 2 minutes or less.

This is a symptom of Norton.

Click to expand...

I'm no defender of Norton, but I don't know how you can watch Mayowa, Reed, Ford and Collier and think personnel is not the biggest issue.

It has to be the worst D-line talent wise in the entire league.

Get any D- coordinator you want, that line isn't improving.

You would be shocked.

Look at how crappy Dallas looks under their DC.

Contrast to how they looked under Richard. Not world-beaters, but certainly nowhere near that bad.

Honestly, they probably have a better roster this year than last. Coaching matters.

Another DC could absolutely get better results with our roster. It is almost mathematically impossible not to get better than 'worst in history', which we are edging close to.

Not even sure we have the worst DL talent in the league. Part of that is Norton making us LOOK like the worst talent.

So every week none of the four D-linemen can get to the QB?? They see someone different every week...AND STILL?? NO SACKS?? So what's point in you getting paid? This has to be one of if not the worst Seahawks defense I've ever seen and they still went 5-0 for the first time so that tells me that the offense is out scoring teams to win. That's why Russ can't throw 3 ints because that sets the other team up to score. This defense can't stop a nose bleed...even with Adams they still couldn't stop anybody. I don't know what they're going to do but if they don't get things together there's no way in hell they get to the SB. And the way Russ is playing it's a damn shame that this defense stinks. Every time the Cards needed points they got it. Maybe they should have gave Clowney what he wanted. Nothing on that d-line is better than him right now. yeah he may have only had 3 sacks last season..but who has 3 sacks on that line right now? Clowney was still a force for the team. So now what? Dunlap? Kerrigan? They need to do SOMETHING. PLEASE.

We need two things:
1. More talent.
2. A better DC capable of using said talents.

Since none of those are on the forecast and menu, we’ll just have to make due with what we currently have.

The season sure looks bleak on defense. At least Adams comes back. He’ll help some.

TwistedHusky":r62v9049 said:

You would be shocked.

Look at how crappy Dallas looks under their DC.

Contrast to how they looked under Richard. Not world-beaters, but certainly nowhere near that bad.

Honestly, they probably have a better roster this year than last. Coaching matters.

Another DC could absolutely get better results with our roster. It is almost mathematically impossible not to get better than 'worst in history', which we are edging close to.

Not even sure we have the worst DL talent in the league. Part of that is Norton making us LOOK like the worst talent.

Click to expand...

The Cowboys lost five defensive starters from last year this off season, including both their starting safeties, and Quinn and Collins, who had 15 sacks between the two of them on the D-line. Add in the fact that Lawrence is a shell of his former self after off season shoulder surgery, and personnel is absolutely their problem on defense.

Again, fire Norton if you want. I don't care, he's a mediocre coordinator at best, but don't forget he's just running Pete's defense the way Pete wants it, WITH the players Pete and John drafted and signed.

So unless we get some significant D-line help before the trade deadline, this defense isn't getting better.

That is why I think we should change the strategy.

Don't worry about giving up TDs. Just score more than they do.

We are far too worried about giving up the TD that we are keeping our own offensive possessions down, and thus our chances to score. We are evening winding our own clock down to almost zero before the snap to limit possessions but that limits our possessions.

This is like being a high powered offense and waiting until 3 seconds on the shot clock to shoot baskets. It makes no sense.

We should make TDs cheap not dear.

It wouldn't fix the defense but it would limit the damage a bad defense could do.

Sgt. Largent":1byjxnyt said:

TwistedHusky":1byjxnyt said:

If it was personnel, we wouldn't have seen this last year.

Last year the excuse was we had no safeties.

Now the excuse is the DL.

Plenty of defenses with less talent have at least not been the worst in history against the pass. When you are this bad, there are plenty of excuses but generally, it means the guy in charge is the problem.

In this case, the DC. This all only started once Norton got here.

The longer he has been here the more entrenched the results have gotten and the worse they have become.

Before, letting teams come back into the RZ regularly in under 2 min was a before the half or 2 min warning thing. Now those are under 1 minute and we regularly allow teams to march into the RZ in 2 minutes or less.

This is a symptom of Norton.

Click to expand...

I'm no defender of Norton, but I don't know how you can watch Mayowa, Reed, Ford and Collier and think personnel is not the biggest issue.

It has to be the worst D-line talent wise in the entire league.

Get any D- coordinator you want, that line isn't improving.

Click to expand...

First of all I think this D is not going to be a D like 2013... that seems to be everybody's expectation... That being said,
I think this D can be fixed to be competitive but not great...

They need to find another corner that can play besides Flowers .... everytime the guy comes in the game they go to a zone cause he can't man up for some season. JS needs to address that or they need to coach up Flowers because its a problem...

secondly, I ask the question is it reasonable to have our starting DT's Playing 75-80% in the rotation? I think not... and that was apparent last night as the cards started pushing them around in the 4th...

and then the obvious JA needs to come back... surely they need to get some more pressure going...

I dont think its going to be fixable by this boards standards but I think this D can be competitive enough to make a SB run with the way the O is playing... we will see I could be very wrong but I want to see what happens when Green and Snacks come in the rotation and I want to see the Hawks fix Flowers or find another corner... I would love to see the corners stay healthy

Just my take


LTH

Sgt. Largent":1qiiuzk7 said:

TwistedHusky":1qiiuzk7 said:

You would be shocked.

Look at how crappy Dallas looks under their DC.

Contrast to how they looked under Richard. Not world-beaters, but certainly nowhere near that bad.

Honestly, they probably have a better roster this year than last. Coaching matters.

Another DC could absolutely get better results with our roster. It is almost mathematically impossible not to get better than 'worst in history', which we are edging close to.

Not even sure we have the worst DL talent in the league. Part of that is Norton making us LOOK like the worst talent.

Click to expand...

The Cowboys lost five defensive starters from last year this off season, including both their starting safeties, and Quinn and Collins, who had 15 sacks between the two of them on the D-line. Add in the fact that Lawrence is a shell of his former self after off season shoulder surgery, and personnel is absolutely their problem on defense.

Again, fire Norton if you want. I don't care, he's a mediocre coordinator at best, but don't forget he's just running Pete's defense the way Pete wants it, WITH the players Pete and John drafted and signed.

So unless we get some significant D-line help before the trade deadline, this defense isn't getting better.

Click to expand...

Bingo. Well said Sgt and spot on. The Seahawk defense has been in steady decline since 2017.

LTH":2vrz6ecl said:

Sgt. Largent":2vrz6ecl said:

TwistedHusky":2vrz6ecl said:

If it was personnel, we wouldn't have seen this last year.

Last year the excuse was we had no safeties.

Now the excuse is the DL.

Plenty of defenses with less talent have at least not been the worst in history against the pass. When you are this bad, there are plenty of excuses but generally, it means the guy in charge is the problem.

In this case, the DC. This all only started once Norton got here.

The longer he has been here the more entrenched the results have gotten and the worse they have become.

Before, letting teams come back into the RZ regularly in under 2 min was a before the half or 2 min warning thing. Now those are under 1 minute and we regularly allow teams to march into the RZ in 2 minutes or less.

This is a symptom of Norton.

Click to expand...

I'm no defender of Norton, but I don't know how you can watch Mayowa, Reed, Ford and Collier and think personnel is not the biggest issue.

It has to be the worst D-line talent wise in the entire league.

Get any D- coordinator you want, that line isn't improving.

Click to expand...

First of all I think this D is not going to be a D like 2013... that seems to be everybody's expectation... That being said,
I think this D can be fixed to be competitive but not great...

They need to find another corner that can play besides Flowers .... everytime the guy comes in the game they go to a zone cause he can't man up for some season. JS needs to address that or they need to coach up Flowers because its a problem...

secondly, I ask the question is it reasonable to have our starting DT's Playing 75-80% in the rotation? I think not... and that was apparent last night as the cards started pushing them around in the 4th...

and then the obvious JA needs to come back... surely they need to get some more pressure going...

I dont think its going to be fixable by this boards standards but I think this D can be competitive enough to make a SB run with the way the O is playing... we will see I could be very wrong but I want to see what happens when Green and Snacks come in the rotation and I want to see the Hawks fix Flowers or find another corner... I would love to see the corners stay healthy

Just my take


LTH

Click to expand...

1. They went out and got another corner, his name is Quinton Dunbar. He hasn't been healthy. So you want another another corner? Where's that player coming from?

2. The reason we got Snacks is because Pete and John know that 80% of snaps for Ford and Reed isn't sustainable. As evident that neither player is effective after halftime.

You're talking about things that should have been addressed in the off season. We bargain binned the defensive line, didn't get any CB depth and the draft picks we did make aren't making an impact, and now we're paying for it. There were PLENTY of front line pass rushers and DE's that could have been had for 10-15M.

Maybe John can work his magic and trade for a DE, but that's not going to fix the defense. We need 2-3 key pieces to even get to mediocre.

Sgt. Largent":2fch47s7 said:

LTH":2fch47s7 said:

Sgt. Largent":2fch47s7 said:

TwistedHusky":2fch47s7 said:

If it was personnel, we wouldn't have seen this last year.

Last year the excuse was we had no safeties.

Now the excuse is the DL.

Plenty of defenses with less talent have at least not been the worst in history against the pass. When you are this bad, there are plenty of excuses but generally, it means the guy in charge is the problem.

In this case, the DC. This all only started once Norton got here.

The longer he has been here the more entrenched the results have gotten and the worse they have become.

Before, letting teams come back into the RZ regularly in under 2 min was a before the half or 2 min warning thing. Now those are under 1 minute and we regularly allow teams to march into the RZ in 2 minutes or less.

This is a symptom of Norton.

Click to expand...

I'm no defender of Norton, but I don't know how you can watch Mayowa, Reed, Ford and Collier and think personnel is not the biggest issue.

It has to be the worst D-line talent wise in the entire league.

Get any D- coordinator you want, that line isn't improving.

Click to expand...

First of all I think this D is not going to be a D like 2013... that seems to be everybody's expectation... That being said,
I think this D can be fixed to be competitive but not great...

They need to find another corner that can play besides Flowers .... everytime the guy comes in the game they go to a zone cause he can't man up for some season. JS needs to address that or they need to coach up Flowers because its a problem...

secondly, I ask the question is it reasonable to have our starting DT's Playing 75-80% in the rotation? I think not... and that was apparent last night as the cards started pushing them around in the 4th...

and then the obvious JA needs to come back... surely they need to get some more pressure going...

I dont think its going to be fixable by this boards standards but I think this D can be competitive enough to make a SB run with the way the O is playing... we will see I could be very wrong but I want to see what happens when Green and Snacks come in the rotation and I want to see the Hawks fix Flowers or find another corner... I would love to see the corners stay healthy

Just my take


LTH

Click to expand...

1. They went out and got another corner, his name is Quinton Dunbar. He hasn't been healthy. So you want another another corner? Where's that player coming from?

2. The reason we got Snacks is because Pete and John know that 80% of snaps for Ford and Reed isn't sustainable. As evident that neither player is effective after halftime.

You're talking about things that should have been addressed in the off season. We bargain binned the defensive line, didn't get any CB depth and the draft picks we did make aren't making an impact, and now we're paying for it. There were PLENTY of front line pass rushers and DE's that could have been had for 10-15M.

Maybe John can work his magic and trade for a DE, but that's not going to fix the defense. We need 2-3 key pieces to even get to mediocre.

Click to expand...

They chose to get JA instead of a DE so i understand that most wanted A DE... it just is what it is at this point... I just think it's going to be better when they get some help at DT hopefully it will open things up for stopping the run late and so the linebackers to shoot the gaps and maybe give the DE's a better match up...if we could have stopped the run we might have won that game

LTH

Again, there is no upside for Norton.

He wasn't good elsewhere.

He wasn't good last year.

He is even worse this year.

There is no amount of roster changes that will fix this. Carroll has run 'his' defense with other coordinators. Even after we lost the HOF crew. Nobody was as bad as Norton was or is.

In fact, no other coordinator for the Seahawks has been as bad...ever.

So this whole 'we don't have the right players' defense is laughable. EVERY team is dealing with injuries and depth issues. Most of them are not the worst their franchise has ever witnessed. Maybe Cowboys with Nolan are.

Making excuses for Norton would make sense if he was ever even mediocre any other year. He hasn't been.

This might be 'Carroll's Defense' but Norton sucks executing it then. There is no fixing that unless he accidentally locks himself in a closet before gameday and misses the game.

I don't think he is smart enough or capable enough for the job he holds. We should honestly call him Peter Norton because he is a walking example of the Peter Principle personified. He was a good LB coach with some great players under him and somehow, because Bobby Wagner is a stud, he got promoted.

Now he is a clueless incompetent peeing away games with a terrible defense because he is in over his head. The only reason to hold out hope at all, is that we have to believe that nobody can be this consistently terrible. At some point, just like Wilson cannot keep up this pace for a full schedule, Norton has to revert to just being only awful. One could hope.

Clowney, per Peter King at PFT today:

"Jadeveon Clowney, who had three teams chasing him in early September to shore up their pass-rush, chose Tennessee, signing a one-year contract that is worth approximately $13 million, per NFL Network’s Tom Pelissero.

Clowney has not had a sack this season.

In fact, Clowney has not had a sack since Week 10 of 2019, for Seattle against San Francisco. That means:

• Clowney is sackless in nine straight games.

• Clowney is sackless in his last 37 quarters.

• Clowney has made more than $6 million to play football since his last sack."

No thanks.

As far as the coaching goes, if you decide you want to take the prestige, then you take the responsibility. Be careful what you wish for. Any starting player in the NFL is, theoretically, at least the 32nd best football player at said position in the entire world. There are thousands of guys in line to take over any of the those spots.

I think we've all worked somewhere where you come in, with experience, and see that things just aren't clicking. Any given job has a limited skill set (of varying sizes), and I've gone into a place knowing how to do my job, and having had worked in the same situation previously, and the new place was a total cluster. For no other reason than so-so leadership, and never forget about, CHEMISTRY. It's just human nature.

You have a bunch of large dudes getting paid a lot of money, so if you give them an inch the wheels can come off right quick. The Hawks D has a busted mast this year, and is currently floating listlessly. Not one piece of the puzzle is working. It's all weak sauce. Everybody involved is making way too much money to have a let's wait and see attitude. It shouldn't be a 'learning experience' at this level. Esp since it's not like they started from scratch this year.

TwistedHusky":3gzxix59 said:

Again, there is no upside for Norton.

He wasn't good elsewhere.

He wasn't good last year.

He is even worse this year.

There is no amount of roster changes that will fix this. Carroll has run 'his' defense with other coordinators. Even after we lost the HOF crew. Nobody was as bad as Norton was or is.

In fact, no other coordinator for the Seahawks has been as bad...ever.

So this whole 'we don't have the right players' defense is laughable. EVERY team is dealing with injuries and depth issues. Most of them are not the worst their franchise has ever witnessed. Maybe Cowboys with Nolan are.

Making excuses for Norton would make sense if he was ever even mediocre any other year. He hasn't been.

This might be 'Carroll's Defense' but Norton sucks executing it then. There is no fixing that unless he accidentally locks himself in a closet before gameday and misses the game.

I don't think he is smart enough or capable enough for the job he holds. We should honestly call him Peter Norton because he is a walking example of the Peter Principle personified. He was a good LB coach with some great players under him and somehow, because Bobby Wagner is a stud, he got promoted.

Now he is a clueless incompetent peeing away games with a terrible defense because he is in over his head. The only reason to hold out hope at all, is that we have to believe that nobody can be this consistently terrible. At some point, just like Wilson cannot keep up this pace for a full schedule, Norton has to revert to just being only awful. One could hope.

Click to expand...

Im not enough of a X's and O's guy to be able to tell if Norton is blowing it as bad as you say he is. Im not in the meetings... Im not at practice... I haven't talked with Carroll... the reporters dont know... in fact from TV i cant tell exactly what's going on because I can't see the whole field and what happens in the part I cant see... so It's good to have guys like you who have all this information... there is way more to it than what we know as fans IMO...


LTH