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Does Pete want this Seahawks team to be 2000 Ravens team?

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  • You know, an all great defense but a average to below average QB like Trent Dilfer. That 2000 Ravens SB team was 5th in rushing offense. Perhaps, thats the philosophy that Pete wants to instill in the team? But Wilson disagrees with it.
    Mizak
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  • I really don't think it is. Pete does and always has prioritized having an explosive passing attack. He just wants to limit turnovers... which Dilfer didn't.

    I think he wants the 2020 Seahawks... after they've made a few strides on defense, shifted the passing attack to one that moves the chains, and developed a rushing attack that they can truly lean on and trust to keep the offense on schedule without putting the defense back on the field so quickly.
    Maelstrom787
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  • Mizak wrote:You know, an all great defense but a average to below average QB like Trent Dilfer. That 2000 Ravens SB team was 5th in rushing offense. Perhaps, thats the philosophy that Pete wants to instill in the team? But Wilson disagrees with it.


    He wants the late 70's Raiders.

    Brutal defense, Running game that hit and punched you in the mouth, then deep ball with Branch and edge of field with Biletnikoff and TE's.
    chris98251
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  • He wants the 2013 Seahawks, but without Lynch and the L.O.B.
    Jerhawk
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  • Doubtful he wants anything more than an offence that is effective at running the ball when needed and forces the D to have to protect against the running game by devoting defensive resources to prevent it. Frankly the predictability of Schotty’s pound the middle was getting lame and was easily defended without having to bring a S out of coverage and the two high S D prevented the effective deep passes from working during the last half of the year.

    The Giants game every other team the blueprint for defending Russ from cooking. The team had little answer for the defence and caused the O to look a lot like KC did against Tampa, everyone was covered.

    There is a lot presumption here that Pete wants to restrict his OC to run run run when I suspect what he really wants to see is more creativity and low risk in terms of ball protection.

    I guess we will see what gives next season.
    jammerhawk
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  • We don't have the personnel for any of these things
    ducks41468
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  • Carroll literally told a member of the media that 'he wants to go back to 90s football' for the Seahawks.

    That is literally his plan.

    Or was.

    Wilson told him essentially, 'I warned you old man'. Ands he went public to say he is tired of Carroll's garbage approach to football now.

    Carroll is old and decrepit enough to try to drive his new playoff failure plan of obsolete football forward. If he allows Wilson to leave or drives him off, he will just be an aging relic that is basically turned into a less dirty Jeff Fisher.
    TwistedHusky
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  • I think the 70s-80s Vikings are the template. He was highly influenced by Monte Kiffin and Bud Grant, and repeatedly cites those two as reasons he's been successful.

    The smash mouth offenses of those times, a quarterback that can make improbable improvisations happen, an offense predicated on the play action and deep passing game. I think that the Bud Grant Vikings is his vision.
    Spin Doctor
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  • Mizak wrote:You know, an all great defense but a average to below average QB like Trent Dilfer. That 2000 Ravens SB team was 5th in rushing offense. Perhaps, thats the philosophy that Pete wants to instill in the team? But Wilson disagrees with it.


    No.

    Green Bay vs Rams in the divisional round and TB vs KC in the Super Bowl are the two best recent examples of what Carroll wants.

    - Punishing running game that keeps the opponents D from flying to the QB
    - Efficient and clinical QB play that can put the dagger in when the opportunity comes
    - A Seahawks D that can get to the QB and takes the ball away
    - Win the turnover battle.
    - Win the TOP

    There has to be some flexibility with the scheme on O. On one hand we can't have the last 8 games with no short/intermediate passing game. But we also can't have Russ going all Jay Cutler and throwing 3+ picks a game either.

    Not sure why all the hate for Carroll.
    - Last year Russ wanted 'superstars' and PC/JS went out and got Olsen, Adams, and Dunlap
    - Last year he let Russ cook until Russ burned the ingredients
    - It sounds like Shane Waldren was hired mostly because Russ wanted him
    - Last year on paper our playmakers on O were stacked. Metcalf, Tyler, Olsen, Carson, and Gordon.

    We need to improve our O-line in a big way, that has been the glaring failure of the PC/JS era. Russ has had everything else handed to him, and both Russ and the team have done well out of it.
    hinton
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  • hinton wrote:
    Mizak wrote:You know, an all great defense but a average to below average QB like Trent Dilfer. That 2000 Ravens SB team was 5th in rushing offense. Perhaps, thats the philosophy that Pete wants to instill in the team? But Wilson disagrees with it.


    No.

    Green Bay vs Rams in the divisional round and TB vs KC in the Super Bowl are the two best recent examples of what Carroll wants.

    - Punishing running game that keeps the opponents D from flying to the QB
    - Efficient and clinical QB play that can put the dagger in when the opportunity comes
    - A Seahawks D that can get to the QB and takes the ball away
    - Win the turnover battle.
    - Win the TOP

    There has to be some flexibility with the scheme on O. On one hand we can't have the last 8 games with no short/intermediate passing game. But we also can't have Russ going all Jay Cutler and throwing 3+ picks a game either.

    Not sure why all the hate for Carroll.
    - Last year Russ wanted 'superstars' and PC/JS went out and got Olsen, Adams, and Dunlap
    - Last year he let Russ cook until Russ burned the ingredients
    - It sounds like Shane Waldren was hired mostly because Russ wanted him
    - Last year on paper our playmakers on O were stacked. Metcalf, Tyler, Olsen, Carson, and Gordon.

    We need to improve our O-line in a big way, that has been the glaring failure of the PC/JS era. Russ has had everything else handed to him, and both Russ and the team have done well out of it.

    Green Bay, TB, and KC all passed more often than they ran. They could hit you with the running game, but they could also air it out. They were all top passing offenses in the NFL. All of these offenses looked fundamentally different than what the Seahawks have tried to run in the last 10 years under Pete.

    First off, KC, Green Bay, and TB make liberal usage of short passes, and YAC routes. How many times did we see Brady just complete a slant pass over the middle? Quite a few, we avoid that part of the field entirely. Whenever we've done that, Carroll pulled the plug, and coincidentally those were also when the offense was most successful. Think 2015 and the beginning of this season. They also don't line up and broadcast what they're doing. Many times they'll run out of spread formations. Seattle on the other hand the had the philosophy that we line up, and if we're better we'll beat them.

    We also need to talk about tempo and agency. Carroll's teams snap the ball later than just about every team in the NFL. Wilson doesn't have time to change plays or adjust things at the LOS. He also has eluded to the fact that he doesn't have much ability to change plays. He's treated like a rookie QB when he is a veteran in the NFL with an impressive track record. TB constantly changed the tempo, and looks at the LOS based on what KC was showing TB.

    Those teams do things fundamentally different than Seattle. Our offense has been and is broken. Also, Carroll did not get Jamal Adams and Dunlap because Wilson wanted "superstars". He got those two players because our defense has been utter garbage since 2017 and the last half of 2016. Every year our defense has been declining since 2015. We had one of the worst pass rushes in the NFL before Dunlap and Carroll puts a big emphasis on safety play in his defensive schemes. Those weren't pushes from Russell guaranteed. As for Olsen, he was a washed up player by the time he came here. Our only two real playmakers were Lockett, and DK Metcalf, we had no underneath threat. Our WR #3 was weak and TE play lackluster across the board. Lockett also has a tendency to get banged up and be irrelevant for stretches. We have a good core to work with, but we're hardly "stacked". Depth and utility players are severely lacking.

    Carroll is a huge issue with our offense. I don't even care if he wanted to structure the offense like Tampa Bay in the Super Bowl. Just stop trying to run these long developing routes towards the sidelines. It's easy to stop, and it is foolish. Stop broadcasting what you're going to do, and where you're going to run. Allow the QB to change plays, and operate at the LOS, vary the tempo. These are all basic things that Carroll's offenses fail to do time and time again.
    Spin Doctor
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  • Does Pete remember that far back ?
    xray
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  • They got Adams to pave the way to the SB . :D
    xray
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    hinton wrote:
    Mizak wrote:You know, an all great defense but a average to below average QB like Trent Dilfer. That 2000 Ravens SB team was 5th in rushing offense. Perhaps, thats the philosophy that Pete wants to instill in the team? But Wilson disagrees with it.


    No.

    Green Bay vs Rams in the divisional round and TB vs KC in the Super Bowl are the two best recent examples of what Carroll wants.

    - Punishing running game that keeps the opponents D from flying to the QB
    - Efficient and clinical QB play that can put the dagger in when the opportunity comes
    - A Seahawks D that can get to the QB and takes the ball away
    - Win the turnover battle.
    - Win the TOP

    There has to be some flexibility with the scheme on O. On one hand we can't have the last 8 games with no short/intermediate passing game. But we also can't have Russ going all Jay Cutler and throwing 3+ picks a game either.

    Not sure why all the hate for Carroll.
    - Last year Russ wanted 'superstars' and PC/JS went out and got Olsen, Adams, and Dunlap
    - Last year he let Russ cook until Russ burned the ingredients
    - It sounds like Shane Waldren was hired mostly because Russ wanted him
    - Last year on paper our playmakers on O were stacked. Metcalf, Tyler, Olsen, Carson, and Gordon.

    We need to improve our O-line in a big way, that has been the glaring failure of the PC/JS era. Russ has had everything else handed to him, and both Russ and the team have done well out of it.

    Green Bay, TB, and KC all passed more often than they ran. They could hit you with the running game, but they could also air it out. They were all top passing offenses in the NFL. All of these offenses looked fundamentally different than what the Seahawks have tried to run in the last 10 years under Pete.

    First off, KC, Green Bay, and TB make liberal usage of short passes, and YAC routes. How many times did we see Brady just complete a slant pass over the middle? Quite a few, we avoid that part of the field entirely. Whenever we've done that, Carroll pulled the plug, and coincidentally those were also when the offense was most successful. Think 2015 and the beginning of this season. They also don't line up and broadcast what they're doing. Many times they'll run out of spread formations. Seattle on the other hand the had the philosophy that we line up, and if we're better we'll beat them.

    We also need to talk about tempo and agency. Carroll's teams snap the ball later than just about every team in the NFL. Wilson doesn't have time to change plays or adjust things at the LOS. He also has eluded to the fact that he doesn't have much ability to change plays. He's treated like a rookie QB when he is a veteran in the NFL with an impressive track record. TB constantly changed the tempo, and looks at the LOS based on what KC was showing TB.

    Those teams do things fundamentally different than Seattle. Our offense has been and is broken. Also, Carroll did not get Jamal Adams and Dunlap because Wilson wanted "superstars". He got those two players because our defense has been utter garbage since 2017 and the last half of 2016. Every year our defense has been declining since 2015. We had one of the worst pass rushes in the NFL before Dunlap and Carroll puts a big emphasis on safety play in his defensive schemes. Those weren't pushes from Russell guaranteed. As for Olsen, he was a washed up player by the time he came here. Our only two real playmakers were Lockett, and DK Metcalf, we had no underneath threat. Our WR #3 was weak and TE play lackluster across the board. Lockett also has a tendency to get banged up and be irrelevant for stretches. We have a good core to work with, but we're hardly "stacked". Depth and utility players are severely lacking.

    Carroll is a huge issue with our offense. I don't even care if he wanted to structure the offense like Tampa Bay in the Super Bowl. Just stop trying to run these long developing routes towards the sidelines. It's easy to stop, and it is foolish. Stop broadcasting what you're going to do, and where you're going to run. Allow the QB to change plays, and operate at the LOS, vary the tempo. These are all basic things that Carroll's offenses fail to do time and time again.


    A few points to cover there:

    - I specifically mentioned two games, rather than the teams overall approach. Interestingly whenever GB puts the game entirely on the shoulders of A-Rod they inevitably lose, he's only the MVP when the team has legitimate balance.

    - Yeah other teams have better route trees and short/intermediate passing games, we definitely need to improve in that area, there's a few factors to this though. Firstly, I think Schotty was a poor play-caller in this regard and it showed, hopefully the new OC can bring this aspect. Secondly, Russ has never been particularly good at short throws, he's often erratic and throws the ball waaaay to hard in the short game (particularly between the hashes). Russ needs to put in a lot of work this offseason to fix that part of his game.

    - I agree our O is broken, but again I can't put that on Carroll or Russ or Schotty, it's a collective failure and we were maddeningly like Keckyll/Hyde this year on O. We had 2 WR's set Seahawk records this year, but in the playoff game we couldn't even complete an easy pass without it turning into a Rams TD. Russ put up gaudy numbers but also set his record for interceptions. We ran the ball quite well, but I don't think we had a 100 yard rusher in a game. We had a good O-line for the first half of the season and a bad O-line for the second half.

    - The main thing I can fault PC/JS for at this stage is the O-line, which I think has been a mixture of bad coaching hires (now fixed, I think Solari is good), bad drafting, and trying to go with quantity over quality. The challenge if if you pay a top tier C, LG or RT you're looking at 12m+ per year (on a team with little salary cap space) and if they get injured you're back to square 1.

    Ultimately Schotty was the fall guy, and now Carroll has hired the guy Russ wanted. I've been critical of Carroll's handling of the O in the past but it looks like he's giving Russ the keys in 2021. But, if Russ want's premium talent on the O-line )and we already have a top-shelf LT) he's probably gonna have to move some salary around for cap flexibility.
    hinton
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