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Cowherd: Since death of PA, Carroll has "unquestioned power"

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  • Interesting perspective. I think there's a power struggle that we never considered. Schneider answers to Pete, Wilson answers to Pete, and Pete doesn't really answer to anyone. Jody Allen was thrown in as owner but in the end this isn't her show. It was Paul Allen's and the team seems to be struggling behind the scenes without PA.

    Cowherd also made an interesting point about the defense, and how much Pete has struggled to put together a good defense since LOB. Even with Wilson's salary, there has still been some bad drafting and FA signings.

    Scorpion05
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  • Yep.

    Cowherd made a lot of points I've made. But backed them up by alluding to existing Seahawks that feel the same way. If Carroll's own players think he is submarining the team's success - he is delivering nothing.

    If Pete cannot field a defense but Wilson loves him, you learn to live with him if you have to.

    But if Pete cannot field a defense and Wilson is bothered by him? He has to go.

    This is Wilson taking the power back. And with nobody to check Carroll's power (which literally included screwing with his own coordinators' call in games, actions that COST us games) - the only one that can really do this now is Wilson.

    Wilson is realizing that when a franchise anoints you - you do not have to answer to your coach, your coach has to answer to you. Because Carroll's wins literally hinge on Wilson delivering them for you. Wilson on the other hand, has shown he can play outside the gameplan and deliver - so the reverse is not always true.

    Wilson now knows he is THE most important person in the Seahawk organization. And he is exercising the power that comes with that knowledge.

    Nothing wrong with that.

    Because Carroll stopped being a benefit to this franchise some time ago. Now he is an unchecked anchor on the success of this franchise, holding it back with outdated tactics and strategies that bear little relevance to the players he even has.
    TwistedHusky
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  • As one of the bigger Carroll supporters on this forum, I've said it before and I'll say it again:

    It's time for Pete to keep his star happy.

    Within reason, what Russell wants, Russell should get. Wants Ertz? Get him. Wants Linsley? Make a run at him. I'm already pleased with his acquisition of Waldron and Dickerson on the offensive coaching staff, because it points in the right direction.

    WITH THAT BEING SAID, Pete is the head coach and the head executive, and the team should still be built largely in his image. There needs to be a balance, and what Carroll wants isn't necessarily bad. Ball control, chains moving, good defense. These are things that HELP a quarterback. They're what ended up tanking the Let Russ Cook effort. These guys CAN co-exist. I'm sure of it. There is enough middle ground for this to work, and postseason success will cure all.
    Maelstrom787
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  • Like my guy Maelstrom pointed out, what Carroll wants is not necessarily a bad thing, and I get why, “ball control, chains moving, good defense...” if you are able to play this consistently, you’ll win more games than you’ll lose, it is a strategy that minimizes turnovers and controls the game.

    However, with all his “knowledge” expert “specialist” mind you, he has struggled to build one capable of what he want.

    Carroll, may be master motivator, but he is pretty incapable and does not have the talent to locate and draft talent anymore. Or if he himself, was the person that really found all these gems in past (one currently) players such as Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, Doug Baldwin, KJ Wright, etc.

    How do absolutely know it was Carroll that spotted these guys? Carroll was coming out of USC and had a tremendous amount of inside information at the college level that many in the NFL had probably dismissed. Now that Carroll has been in the league for a decade his inside knowledge has evaporated.

    I think his strategy is a good strategy as he is able to draft and build a collective talent but when that collective bunch and their separate pieces aren’t able to play at a consistent high level, his own system will work at a disadvantage.

    And this is all Carroll knows and he’ll live and die by its successes and failures. It’s just now it’s more so under the microscope that there are more faults than pros with his system under the collective roster in the past 3-4 years.

    Many here will argue they’ll take a 11-12 win seasons and playoff exits because they remember the lean years and do it want to revert back to it. But now it’s different, you have a legit QB in Wilson, sometimes Wilson looks like he’s a top 5 QB and sometimes when Carroll’s system does not work (6-7 games against prime teams) Wilson can look like an inefficient player.

    I agree Wilson knows he can grab the power back somewhat. And I also agree since PA passed away, Carroll walks around like he can do wrong with no one to answer too. This makes Carroll feel untouchable. Even if he angers Wilson, Carroll does not have to relinquish any say at all. Wilson can turn this thing around if he continues to be heavy footed and sticks to his convictions.

    This is a players league. The players ultimately put fans in the stadiums, purchase merchandise, sell commercials etc.

    The owners rely on the players more so than the coaches. If you have a franchise QB, you need to understand how to build a supporting cast around that player because of that player succeeds the coaches succeeds. Not the other way around. And Tom Brady proved that.

    You need to make Wilson happy. Not Carroll. More likely Wilson finds success without Carroll than Carroll finding success without Wilson.

    Jody Allen and her sports team can either do a better job of managing the Seahawks soap opera or they can totally run it to the ground and lose Wilson in the process. Carroll is real old, he’s going to leave anyways. Who would you rather give 5 years more too? Wilson or Carroll?

    It’s a pretty easy answer. Wilson.

    Leave Carroll in the rear view mirror.

    You accelerate hard and you don’t look back!
    TheLegendOfBoom
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  • I will say it again, PC needs Wilson to even have a chance at anything, and more over, so he has someone to blame.
    John63
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  • Cowherds echoing much of my own sentiment, including who’s got all the power here. Baffling to me how members here can think it’s shottys fault that there were zero adjustments made for the back half of the season. That’s all on Pete one way or the other: either he’s refusing any adjustments being made or he’s just sitting back doing nothing while his OC is making zero adjustments. Either way, Pete is responsible for that.
    Hawaii-hawk
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  • I've said this before in other threads, and will say it again.

    "NOTHING" is happening until we get new ownership of the Hawks. I seriously doubt PA wanted the team to still be in his estate's control this long after his passing. It's going on 2.5 years and still no new owner. His sister is either incompetent or may actually want to pretend that she is the real owner of the team. Either way it's going to ruin this franchise.

    I do see Wilson leaving either this off-season or next in a trade package. I also see PC being the man who took a potential dynasty team and beating it into the ground when he does depart. The power has gone to his head. He will be looked on as not the HC who gave the team it's first SB championship, but as the man who screwed a dynasty team.

    He should have been fired several years ago. It will take a new owner to make that happen now.
    kf3339
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  • I honestly believe that RW wants some say on #1. the O-line, #2. Run support and that's about it.
    He's probably happy with the receivers and tight ends. Yes, he'd like to have a great D but I would imagine that he understands that is not in his strike one.
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  • Amazing how some are still choosing Carroll over Wilson.
    pittpnthrs
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  • I already pointed this out in the "It's not Russ, It's not Pete…" thread.

    This is a huge problem. Paul Allen was a fantastic owner, having the ability to stay hands off, but at the same time when there was a glaring problem he would act swiftly and fix it.

    Stripping Holmgren of GM Power. Firing Mora after only 1 season, etc.

    I don't believe he would've signed Pete to a 5 yr extension either, maybe 1 or 2 years, but not 5. Pete took advantage of the situation and milked Jody for all he could. I believe the deal made Pete the highest paid coach as well. What he has done over the last 6 seasons with hardly any playoff wins would not warrant that kind of payout and that many years at 70 years old?

    Pete's previous extension when PA was alive was only 2 years for reference.

    Jody needs to sell the team if things get really ugly here in the not to distant future. She might need to sell it anyway, she reminds me of the substitute teacher that the kids walk all over.
    Fade
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  • What baffles me is there have been numerous games where post game comments were said about Russ persuading Pete to go for it or to try this or that. Heck, even the David Moore pass to get Moore the $100k, against Pete's knee down wishes.

    Why didn't Russ inject himself in other games after the bye or down the stretch when the offense was sputtering. How about withering the season on the line against the Rams in the playoffs. I really don't think anyone, I include myself in that, has the full picture yet.
    nwHawk
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  • I thought Cowherd was considered chit around here .
    xray
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  • Fade wrote:I don't believe he would've signed Pete to a 5 yr extension either, maybe 1 or 2 years, but not 5. Pete took advantage of the situation and milked Jody for all he could.


    I do think the 5 year deal was excessive, and I like Pete (I know he has faults). Jody may have looked at it as a way to keep the Seahawks connected to Paul. Pete was Paul's choice, therefore the dream is still alive.
    nwHawk
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  • The one thing I don't understand in the "at least we make the playoffs now" argument is how is a quick exit from the playoffs really any better than not making the playoffs?

    I mean yes, it's true, if you don't make the playoffs you have virtually no chance to make the SB. But if you consistently are a quick exit you also don't have any chance to make the SB either.
    DomeHawk
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  • DomeHawk wrote:The one thing I don't understand in the "at least we make the playoffs now" argument is how is a quick exit from the playoffs really any better than not making the playoffs?

    I mean yes, it's true, if you don't make the playoffs you have virtually no chance to make the SB. But if you consistently are a quick exit you also don't have any chance to make the SB either.

    It's not virtually no chance, you actually have no chance. There is literally no way to make it to the SB if you don't make the playoffs. What are you even saying? If you lose early in the playoffs you have no chance to make it to the SB? Guess what, if you lose in the playoffs at anytime before the SB, you have no chance to get to the SB. Of course once you're out, you're out.
    OrangeGravy
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  • TheLegendOfBoom wrote:Like my guy Maelstrom pointed out, what Carroll wants is not necessarily a bad thing, and I get why, “ball control, chains moving, good defense...” if you are able to play this consistently, you’ll win more games than you’ll lose, it is a strategy that minimizes turnovers and controls the game.

    However, with all his “knowledge” expert “specialist” mind you, he has struggled to build one capable of what he want.

    Carroll, may be master motivator, but he is pretty incapable and does not have the talent to locate and draft talent anymore. Or if he himself, was the person that really found all these gems in past (one currently) players such as Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, Doug Baldwin, KJ Wright, etc.

    How do absolutely know it was Carroll that spotted these guys? Carroll was coming out of USC and had a tremendous amount of inside information at the college level that many in the NFL had probably dismissed. Now that Carroll has been in the league for a decade his inside knowledge has evaporated.

    I think his strategy is a good strategy as he is able to draft and build a collective talent but when that collective bunch and their separate pieces aren’t able to play at a consistent high level, his own system will work at a disadvantage.

    And this is all Carroll knows and he’ll live and die by its successes and failures. It’s just now it’s more so under the microscope that there are more faults than pros with his system under the collective roster in the past 3-4 years.

    Many here will argue they’ll take a 11-12 win seasons and playoff exits because they remember the lean years and do it want to revert back to it. But now it’s different, you have a legit QB in Wilson, sometimes Wilson looks like he’s a top 5 QB and sometimes when Carroll’s system does not work (6-7 games against prime teams) Wilson can look like an inefficient player.

    I agree Wilson knows he can grab the power back somewhat. And I also agree since PA passed away, Carroll walks around like he can do wrong with no one to answer too. This makes Carroll feel untouchable. Even if he angers Wilson, Carroll does not have to relinquish any say at all. Wilson can turn this thing around if he continues to be heavy footed and sticks to his convictions.

    This is a players league. The players ultimately put fans in the stadiums, purchase merchandise, sell commercials etc.

    The owners rely on the players more so than the coaches. If you have a franchise QB, you need to understand how to build a supporting cast around that player because of that player succeeds the coaches succeeds. Not the other way around. And Tom Brady proved that.

    You need to make Wilson happy. Not Carroll. More likely Wilson finds success without Carroll than Carroll finding success without Wilson.

    Jody Allen and her sports team can either do a better job of managing the Seahawks soap opera or they can totally run it to the ground and lose Wilson in the process. Carroll is real old, he’s going to leave anyways. Who would you rather give 5 years more too? Wilson or Carroll?

    It’s a pretty easy answer. Wilson.

    I would like to compare PC to Marty Schottenheim. Pete got lucky with a dynamite D, a hot Running back, plus a young and elusive QB on a rookie contract. They both can have or had great season records, and lose in the playoffs.

    Leave Carroll in the rear view mirror.

    You accelerate hard and you don’t look back!
    ..... I like your finish so much, I made it look like my own words
    jeremiah
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  • I'm just glad Russell Wilson doesn't care about the "lean years" of 20 years ago and isn't content with 10-12 win seasons with early playoff exits. His desire to be the be the best and live up to potential along with his "never content" mentality wouldn't go over well here with a lot of members.
    rjdriver
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  • jeremiah wrote:
    TheLegendOfBoom wrote:Like my guy Maelstrom pointed out, what Carroll wants is not necessarily a bad thing, and I get why, “ball control, chains moving, good defense...” if you are able to play this consistently, you’ll win more games than you’ll lose, it is a strategy that minimizes turnovers and controls the game.

    However, with all his “knowledge” expert “specialist” mind you, he has struggled to build one capable of what he want.

    Carroll, may be master motivator, but he is pretty incapable and does not have the talent to locate and draft talent anymore. Or if he himself, was the person that really found all these gems in past (one currently) players such as Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, Doug Baldwin, KJ Wright, etc.

    How do absolutely know it was Carroll that spotted these guys? Carroll was coming out of USC and had a tremendous amount of inside information at the college level that many in the NFL had probably dismissed. Now that Carroll has been in the league for a decade his inside knowledge has evaporated.

    I think his strategy is a good strategy as he is able to draft and build a collective talent but when that collective bunch and their separate pieces aren’t able to play at a consistent high level, his own system will work at a disadvantage.

    And this is all Carroll knows and he’ll live and die by its successes and failures. It’s just now it’s more so under the microscope that there are more faults than pros with his system under the collective roster in the past 3-4 years.

    Many here will argue they’ll take a 11-12 win seasons and playoff exits because they remember the lean years and do it want to revert back to it. But now it’s different, you have a legit QB in Wilson, sometimes Wilson looks like he’s a top 5 QB and sometimes when Carroll’s system does not work (6-7 games against prime teams) Wilson can look like an inefficient player.

    I agree Wilson knows he can grab the power back somewhat. And I also agree since PA passed away, Carroll walks around like he can do wrong with no one to answer too. This makes Carroll feel untouchable. Even if he angers Wilson, Carroll does not have to relinquish any say at all. Wilson can turn this thing around if he continues to be heavy footed and sticks to his convictions.

    This is a players league. The players ultimately put fans in the stadiums, purchase merchandise, sell commercials etc.

    The owners rely on the players more so than the coaches. If you have a franchise QB, you need to understand how to build a supporting cast around that player because of that player succeeds the coaches succeeds. Not the other way around. And Tom Brady proved that.

    You need to make Wilson happy. Not Carroll. More likely Wilson finds success without Carroll than Carroll finding success without Wilson.

    Jody Allen and her sports team can either do a better job of managing the Seahawks soap opera or they can totally run it to the ground and lose Wilson in the process. Carroll is real old, he’s going to leave anyways. Who would you rather give 5 years more too? Wilson or Carroll?

    It’s a pretty easy answer. Wilson.

    I would like to compare PC to Marty Schottenheim. Pete got lucky with a dynamite D, a hot Running back, plus a young and elusive QB on a rookie contract. They both can have or had great season records, and lose in the playoffs.

    Leave Carroll in the rear view mirror.

    You accelerate hard and you don’t look back!
    ..... I like your finish so much, I made it look like my own words

    Agreed, x1000!

    Cheers, brother!
    TheLegendOfBoom
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  • The irony.

    Those that are cool with merely making the playoffs and getting immediately bounced because it's better than the lean years. Is going to be the reason the HoF QB leaves, sending the franchise back into the lean years. :shock:

    But I'm the spoiled one! LOL

    It's about expectation. When you have a top 5 QB, it's about Superbowls. Of course you're not going to win it every year, but the Seahawks are not even coming close. Rodgers and the Packers deem their season a failure.
    Fade
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  • Pete can do what Pete does, but Pete needs someone that is safe in his position to challenge him. Being close to every situation blinds you, you start getting into habits, people notice those and you are predictable.

    This is across the board not just Offense and Defense but hiring's, drafting, Free Agent types etc.

    Unchecked and not questioned you have a Snyder, Bidwell, Brown situation, or the Raiders when Al was older.
    chris98251
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  • Fade wrote:The irony.

    Those that are cool with merely making the playoffs and getting immediately bounced because it's better than the lean years. Is going to be the reason the HoF QB leaves, sending the franchise back into the lean years. :shock:

    But I'm the spoiled one! LOL

    It's about expectation. When you have a top 5 QB, it's about Superbowls. Of course you're not going to win it every year, but the Seahawks are not even coming close. Rodgers and the Packers deem their season a failure.


    Well, I'm the only one here who even remotely "defended" Carroll in the thread, so I assume the irony referred to here is gleaned from my comment.

    You were happy about the Waldron hire too, Fade. You and I both thought it was a slam dunk, and you and I both likely were hoping for him once it came out that he was interviewed.

    Peteball has pillars in theory that are necessary for any successful team, and issues in execution that madden us all. Yes, me too.

    I'm just saying that I don't think said core pillars of Pete's philosophy necessarily run totally opposite of what Russ (and most of us here) are looking for.

    Ball control is good. Sustaining drives is good. Helping the defense by keeping ahold of the ball is good. Explosive plays are good. Physicality is good.

    I agree that Pete's number 1 priority needs to be keeping Russ happy. Russ is the piece that makes this all work. I think Peteball can work, too - as long as its implemented differently. Very differently.

    Hiring Waldron and Dickerson from a team that famously runs the ball effectively and creates opportunities in the passing game signals to me that Pete is looking to implement his vision in a contemporary manner, which is sorely needed. We've seen that he can change. The offense this season was unthinkable before. I don't think he's done changing.

    That's literally all I'm getting at. Not saying that playoff appearances are the indicator of a successful season.
    Maelstrom787
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  • Carroll swings as much weight in the Hawks organization as Belichick does in NE . The comparison of the two ends there when you consider the ' ring count ' .
    xray
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  • xray wrote:Carroll swings as much weight in the Hawks organization as Belichick does in NE . The comparison of the two ends there when you consider the ' ring count ' .



    Belichick at least has more rings, and even he had to answer to Robert Kraft when Bill wanted to ship Brady off and keep Jimmy G. Wilson doesn’t have that owner to talk to. We no longer have one of the best owners in the league here.

    We might start to look at the death of Paul Allen as the beginning of the end. And we didn’t see it coming. :cry:
    Scorpion05
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  • I think that the Allen connection is the most relevant.

    We have a path of least resistance owner combined with a path of least resistance coach.

    That in itself is somewhat a harbinger of being a bottom feeder soon enough.

    But there is a good chance Jody is keeping Pete in place because that is Paul's legacy. This isn't about being great or winning or even being competitive. It is about preserving a memory. And if that is the case, we are somewhat screwed.

    Then I have no issue or umbrage when Wilson leaves for greener pastures. When Wilson does leave, Pete probably does not win another playoff game in his career. But I'm not sure Pete will ever win another playoff game with Wilson either.

    So I don't know if trading Wilson for draft picks or Watson or anything is going to matter. Pete stopped being a good HC some time ago, basically treading water while getting some extra wins because of Russ.

    I never understood what was going through Wilson's mind when he signed the extension. It made no sense. Pete was always going to hold him back with his outdated and incompetent gameplans. Why sign on for more of that?

    But Wilson is loyal in his way and he likely wanted to give Pete every chance he could. Last year was that chance and probably the realization that it never was anyone else's fault - it was always Pete. The moment Wilson realized that and decided to explore his options? It probably cemented things.

    Wilson is gone, almost assuredly. Because I don't see a future where we get rid of Pete to keep Wilson and that is the only way we keep him. He will likely play the one more year and then force a trade.

    Pete probably delivers a few 4 or 5 win seasons before getting fired. Not really a rosy future but the likely one.
    TwistedHusky
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  • Last year majority of you guys didn't even think they would make the playoff let alone win 8 games.

    This season some were saying we were going to finish last... We end up getting 12 wins and won at the toughest division. We just happened to be paired up against the Rams for the playoffs. Everyone here is being dramatic. Wilson is not getting traded & Pete is not getting fired.

    We saw how good our offense can be. We also saw how solid our D second half of the season. New offensive coordinator, am i the only one excited for this coming season.

    If we can get a LG and Center, that would great. Maybe get a nice 3rd receiver.
    rcaido
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:I think that the Allen connection is the most relevant.

    We have a path of least resistance owner combined with a path of least resistance coach.

    That in itself is somewhat a harbinger of being a bottom feeder soon enough.

    But there is a good chance Jody is keeping Pete in place because that is Paul's legacy. This isn't about being great or winning or even being competitive. It is about preserving a memory. And if that is the case, we are somewhat screwed.

    Then I have no issue or umbrage when Wilson leaves for greener pastures. When Wilson does leave, Pete probably does not win another playoff game in his career. But I'm not sure Pete will ever win another playoff game with Wilson either.

    So I don't know if trading Wilson for draft picks or Watson or anything is going to matter. Pete stopped being a good HC some time ago, basically treading water while getting some extra wins because of Russ.

    I never understood what was going through Wilson's mind when he signed the extension. It made no sense. Pete was always going to hold him back with his outdated and incompetent gameplans. Why sign on for more of that?

    But Wilson is loyal in his way and he likely wanted to give Pete every chance he could. Last year was that chance and probably the realization that it never was anyone else's fault - it was always Pete. The moment Wilson realized that and decided to explore his options? It probably cemented things.

    Wilson is gone, almost assuredly. Because I don't see a future where we get rid of Pete to keep Wilson and that is the only way we keep him. He will likely play the one more year and then force a trade.

    Pete probably delivers a few 4 or 5 win seasons before getting fired. Not really a rosy future but the likely one.


    :ditto:
    kf3339
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  • I think there is definitely some truth to Cowherd's comments. And from what I've heard in interviews with Russ, he had some personal affection for and loyalty to Paul Allen.

    I don't know how interested Jody Allen is in owning and managing a football team, but you know what would be worse than an uninvolved owner? Selling to the wrong person/group. If Jody is going to sell the team, I hope (and believe) that she'll want to honor Paul's legacy by selling it to someone with the same interest that he had in both the team and the city. There's only so many people with the attitude, interest, and bankroll to own an NFL team.
    Torc
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  • I don't think it's an either-or thing with Pete and Russ. What gives me hope is that I've seen Pete embrace change. That said, however, Pete is going to have to make some really hard decisions soon. I can't see Waldron staying if Russ is going to be happy. I also am wondering if and when the ax is going to fall on Norton. Pete is like a lot of coaches, keeps his friends on longer than he should. Loyalty can be good, except when it's not. We've seen some underperforming assistants stay on way too long here, form Cable to Bevell to Ruel to Carroll's own kids.

    Bottom line here is that changes have to happen somewhere in this organization -- in this off-season. I'll give Pete the benefit of the doubt, he's earned it, but standing still is not an option at this point. Russ made that clear.
    Tusc2000
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  • Tusc2000 wrote:I don't think it's an either-or thing with Pete and Russ. What gives me hope is that I've seen Pete embrace change. That said, however, Pete is going to have to make some really hard decisions soon. I can't see Waldron staying if Russ is going to be happy. I also am wondering if and when the ax is going to fall on Norton. Pete is like a lot of coaches, keeps his friends on longer than he should. Loyalty can be good, except when it's not. We've seen some underperforming assistants stay on way too long here, form Cable to Bevell to Ruel to Carroll's own kids.

    Bottom line here is that changes have to happen somewhere in this organization -- in this off-season. I'll give Pete the benefit of the doubt, he's earned it, but standing still is not an option at this point. Russ made that clear.


    For what its worth, Pete's sons seem like pretty decent coaches. Nate coaches a fairly successful WR unit and Brennan coordinated an efficient but underutilized rushing attack in 2020. Furthermore, by Pete's own admission, his sons are the ones who stand up to him the most often on staff.
    Maelstrom787
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  • rcaido wrote:Last year majority of you guys didn't even think they would make the playoff let alone win 8 games.

    This season some were saying we were going to finish last... We end up getting 12 wins and won at the toughest division. We just happened to be paired up against the Rams for the playoffs. Everyone here is being dramatic. Wilson is not getting traded & Pete is not getting fired.

    We saw how good our offense can be. We also saw how solid our D second half of the season. New offensive coordinator, am i the only one excited for this coming season.

    If we can get a LG and Center, that would great. Maybe get a nice 3rd receiver.


    Do you think any other team but the Rams would have made a difference? The Hawks were going nowhere in the playoffs. This will be the 4th OC under Pete in 10 years so I expect more of the same to come. The problem with last season is that Seattle had a cream puff of a schedule (seriously, who did they beat that had any relevance). A LG and C would be awesome, but other holes will need to be filled and the team has little cap space and draft picks to do so. I think if the 49ers see some semblance of health next season, the Hawks are battling the Cards for 3rd in the West and 10 wins is about the ceiling for the team. Hope i'm wrong.
    pittpnthrs
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  • rcaido wrote:Last year majority of you guys didn't even think they would make the playoff let alone win 8 games.

    This season some were saying we were going to finish last... We end up getting 12 wins and won at the toughest division. We just happened to be paired up against the Rams for the playoffs. Everyone here is being dramatic. Wilson is not getting traded & Pete is not getting fired.

    We saw how good our offense can be. We also saw how solid our D second half of the season. New offensive coordinator, am i the only one excited for this coming season.

    If we can get a LG and Center, that would great. Maybe get a nice 3rd receiver.


    I'm excited too. Last year showed that Pete is willing to move off stereotypical Peteball, it just wasn't executed properly.

    Honestly, I don't even see Center as a huge hole. That's part of the reason why I'm excited about the new staff on offense. If the Seahawks move towards more zone concepts like Waldron and Dickerson have helped create in the past, Pocic stands to improve. I hope he can be retained, because he's built for that type of scheme. Left guard remains a hole, though. Need a new face there.
    Maelstrom787
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  • Maelstrom787 wrote:
    rcaido wrote:Last year majority of you guys didn't even think they would make the playoff let alone win 8 games.

    This season some were saying we were going to finish last... We end up getting 12 wins and won at the toughest division. We just happened to be paired up against the Rams for the playoffs. Everyone here is being dramatic. Wilson is not getting traded & Pete is not getting fired.

    We saw how good our offense can be. We also saw how solid our D second half of the season. New offensive coordinator, am i the only one excited for this coming season.

    If we can get a LG and Center, that would great. Maybe get a nice 3rd receiver.


    I'm excited too. Last year showed that Pete is willing to move off stereotypical Peteball, it just wasn't executed properly.

    Honestly, I don't even see Center as a huge hole. That's part of the reason why I'm excited about the new staff on offense. If the Seahawks move towards more zone concepts like Waldron and Dickerson have helped create in the past, Pocic stands to improve. I hope he can be retained, because he's built for that type of scheme. Left guard remains a hole, though. Need a new face there.


    It's true, Pete did move off his run-first offense in the first half of the season -- in part because the D was having trouble and we needed to let Russ out-score the opponent. But once the D began to improve in the latter part of the year, Pete reverted back to Pete-ball. I know it's MMQB'ing, but I do wonder how things would have gone against the Rams in the playoffs if Pete had opened the throttle and had let Russ air it out.
    Tusc2000
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  • Tusc2000 wrote:
    Maelstrom787 wrote:
    rcaido wrote:Last year majority of you guys didn't even think they would make the playoff let alone win 8 games.

    This season some were saying we were going to finish last... We end up getting 12 wins and won at the toughest division. We just happened to be paired up against the Rams for the playoffs. Everyone here is being dramatic. Wilson is not getting traded & Pete is not getting fired.

    We saw how good our offense can be. We also saw how solid our D second half of the season. New offensive coordinator, am i the only one excited for this coming season.

    If we can get a LG and Center, that would great. Maybe get a nice 3rd receiver.


    I'm excited too. Last year showed that Pete is willing to move off stereotypical Peteball, it just wasn't executed properly.

    Honestly, I don't even see Center as a huge hole. That's part of the reason why I'm excited about the new staff on offense. If the Seahawks move towards more zone concepts like Waldron and Dickerson have helped create in the past, Pocic stands to improve. I hope he can be retained, because he's built for that type of scheme. Left guard remains a hole, though. Need a new face there.


    It's true, Pete did move off his run-first offense in the first half of the season -- in part because the D was having trouble and we needed to let Russ out-score the opponent. But once the D began to improve in the latter part of the year, Pete reverted back to Pete-ball. I know it's MMQB'ing, but I do wonder how things would have gone against the Rams in the playoffs if Pete had opened the throttle and had let Russ air it out.


    You will never know and I doubt things will change much this year. IF the experiment works, and we run as much as he is saying we will be one and done in the playoffs again. If it fails it will be too late to change again, and we will not make the playoffs.


    FYI PC did not show he was willing to change, if he had he would not have changed back, and judging by the fact the OC is gone one could presume it was not PC who change by the OC who ignored him. Doing something for half a season does not prove your willing to change unless you stick with it. If you don't all you did was experiment, the fact he now says he wants to run more shows he never changed at all.

    Example instead of forcing the OC to adjust he just changed back, that is not willing to change that is an experiment.

    We will see whats what soon enough.
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  • A lot of posters here are doing the reductio ad absurdum with the " it is astonishing how many posters here are still doing the 'I prefer Carroll over Wilson' argument". They must be stupid for doing so (my interpretation).

    I support Carroll but certainly don't prefer Carroll over Wilson and suspect this situation has been quite overblown and becoming more so as time moves on. I prefer the team to keep both, and to become more progressive offensively and believe the new OC has the ability to have that reality happen.

    Pete has been a winning coach everywhere he has coached. He may be old but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have his team win games. I know he hates to lose and was apparently upset the way the team lost against LA in the WC game. To say he's incompetent is really out there and unrelated to the reality of W/L ratios.

    On both sides of this argument there are personal views based upon personal bias.I suspect in time we will eventually find out what really is going on. At present there seems to be an orchestrated media campaign from sources close to either side but mostly Wilson's agent. Is that over money and perceived imbalance of power or for a quid pro quo to modify RW's contract? Maybe Wilson really doesn't like Pete, but I doubt it. We haven't heard much of anything from the team except the team is disappointed in Wilson taking to media herein. Without elevating the story I don't know what else the team should say. Stories are being spun and BS reigns.

    So what if Pete presently has unquestioned power? Is this somehow negative for the team? With PA being gone somebody needs to be in charge. Negative for the team? I guess so if you truly think Pete is incompetent, and not so much if as the evidence demonstrates he is attempting to find ways to improve his team. The recent record and the coaching changes are some evidence to support a belief pete sees a need for changes to be made on O.

    Wilson Isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and neither is Carroll.
    jammerhawk
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  • jammerhawk wrote:A lot of posters here are doing the reductio ad absurdum with the " it is astonishing how many posters here are still doing the 'I prefer Carroll over Wilson' argument". They must be stupid for doing so (my interpretation).

    I support Carroll but certainly don't prefer Carroll over Wilson and suspect this situation has been quite overblown and becoming more so as time moves on. I prefer the team to keep both, and to become more progressive offensively and believe the new OC has the ability to have that reality happen.

    Pete has been a winning coach everywhere he has coached. He may be old but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have his team win games. I know he hates to lose and was apparently upset the way the team lost against LA in the WC game. To say he's incompetent is really out there and unrelated to the reality of W/L ratios.

    On both sides of this argument there are personal views based upon personal bias.I suspect in time we will eventually find out what really is going on. At present there seems to be an orchestrated media campaign from sources close to either side but mostly Wilson's agent. Is that over money and perceived imbalance of power or for a quid pro quo to modify RW's contract? Maybe Wilson really doesn't like Pete, but I doubt it. We haven't heard much of anything from the team except the team is disappointed in Wilson taking to media herein. Without elevating the story I don't know what else the team should say. Stories are being spun and BS reigns.

    So what if Pete presently has unquestioned power? Is this somehow negative for the team? With PA being gone somebody needs to be in charge. Negative for the team? I guess so if you truly think Pete is incompetent, and not so much if as the evidence demonstrates he is attempting to find ways to improve his team. The recent record and the coaching changes are some evidence to support a belief pete sees a need for changes to be made on O.

    Wilson Isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and neither is Carroll..




    Are we....sure about that? Like, outside of college??? Haha

    I love Pete. So much so that I hate him at times, like any person you love. I think he's a great coach despite his flaws, he definitely knows how to get the best out of defensive backs and has shown he can coach up a defense to be competent. I just also think we overrate him, and we never question his arrogance. We can't really say he's succeeded anywhere because like Belichick, he needs a QB to win. A great defense can only win you so many games.
    Scorpion05
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  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:A lot of posters here are doing the reductio ad absurdum with the " it is astonishing how many posters here are still doing the 'I prefer Carroll over Wilson' argument". They must be stupid for doing so (my interpretation).

    I support Carroll but certainly don't prefer Carroll over Wilson and suspect this situation has been quite overblown and becoming more so as time moves on. I prefer the team to keep both, and to become more progressive offensively and believe the new OC has the ability to have that reality happen.

    Pete has been a winning coach everywhere he has coached. He may be old but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have his team win games. I know he hates to lose and was apparently upset the way the team lost against LA in the WC game. To say he's incompetent is really out there and unrelated to the reality of W/L ratios.

    On both sides of this argument there are personal views based upon personal bias.I suspect in time we will eventually find out what really is going on. At present there seems to be an orchestrated media campaign from sources close to either side but mostly Wilson's agent. Is that over money and perceived imbalance of power or for a quid pro quo to modify RW's contract? Maybe Wilson really doesn't like Pete, but I doubt it. We haven't heard much of anything from the team except the team is disappointed in Wilson taking to media herein. Without elevating the story I don't know what else the team should say. Stories are being spun and BS reigns.

    So what if Pete presently has unquestioned power? Is this somehow negative for the team? With PA being gone somebody needs to be in charge. Negative for the team? I guess so if you truly think Pete is incompetent, and not so much if as the evidence demonstrates he is attempting to find ways to improve his team. The recent record and the coaching changes are some evidence to support a belief pete sees a need for changes to be made on O.

    Wilson Isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and neither is Carroll.




    Are we....sure about that? Like, outside of college??? Haha

    I love Pete. So much so that I hate him at times, like any person you love. I think he's a great coach despite his flaws, he definitely knows how to get the best out of defensive backs and has shown he can coach up a defense to be competent. I just also think we overrate him, and we never question his arrogance. We can't really say he's succeeded anywhere because like Belichick, he needs a QB to win. A great defense can only win you so many games.


    We never question his arrogance?

    Have you even been here the past 5 years? It's all this board does.
    Maelstrom787
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  • Unfortunately it’s the same arguments over and over and over. Somehow worked into almost any thread. Tiresome.

    Now lately with Wilson’s stated unhappiness Pete is the devil incarnate, can do nothing right, and is a drag on the team. We must choose between them. Give me a break.

    I do think Pete needs to attempt to be more inclusive in his decision making if it is truly the case he is running an autocracy at headquarters. Somehow though I suspect much of this stuff is highly exaggerated.
    jammerhawk
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  • jammerhawk wrote:Unfortunately it’s the same arguments over and over and over. Somehow worked into almost any thread. Tiresome.

    Now lately with Wilson’s stated unhappiness Pete is the devil incarnate, can do nothing right, and is a drag on the team. We must choose between them. Give me a break.

    I do think Pete needs to attempt to be more inclusive in his decision making if it is truly the case he is running an autocracy at headquarters. Somehow though I suspect much of this stuff is highly exaggerated.

    Yeah, I've said if you have to choose between the two, you have to choose Russ, so maybe I've contributed to that hysteria, but there has been an epidemic of assumptions and hypotheticals quickly converting into "facts" that are now treated like a given here, namely as the team struggled.

    Is Russ focusing too much on off the field stuff?
    Quickly became
    Russ IS spending more time on perfume than game prep

    Does Pete not believe in Russ?
    Became
    Pete doesn't think Russ can play at a high level

    And so on. A lot of people have stopped knowing what they don't know, have become entrenched in their created narratives, and in some cases, have gotten into bitter disputes here where you can't tell if they'd rather be right above all else, even at the detriment of the team.

    It's exhausting.
    pinksheets
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  • jammerhawk wrote:Pete has been a winning coach everywhere he has coached. He may be old but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have his team win games. I know he hates to lose and was apparently upset the way the team lost against LA in the WC game. To say he's incompetent is really out there and unrelated to the reality of W/L ratios.


    Its not that he was upset with how they lost, its the fact that he didnt understand how they lost that bothers me. The Hawks couldnt have gotten the Rams at a better time with a backup QB and then the starter playing with 4 fingers along with Donald not at 100% and they got thumped. They got beat because they just recently played and Carroll came in with the same gameplan and the Rams didnt. The Rams were able to predict what was coming because they just saw the same thing a couple weeks before. Thats what scares me about Pete Carroll. He didnt change anything up and was dumbfounded as to how and why they lost. Thats not what you want from your head coach.
    pittpnthrs
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  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:Pete has been a winning coach everywhere he has coached. He may be old but that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to have his team win games. I know he hates to lose and was apparently upset the way the team lost against LA in the WC game. To say he's incompetent is really out there and unrelated to the reality of W/L ratios.


    Its not that he was upset with how they lost, its the fact that he didnt understand how they lost that bothers me. The Hawks couldnt have gotten the Rams at a better time with a backup QB and then the starter playing with 4 fingers along with Donald not at 100% and they got thumped. They got beat because they just recently played and Carroll came in with the same gameplan and the Rams didnt. The Rams were able to predict what was coming because they just saw the same thing a couple weeks before. Thats what scares me about Pete Carroll. He didnt change anything up and was dumbfounded as to how and why they lost. Thats not what you want from your head coach.



    So lets look at Carroll's record

    Jets 6-10
    NE year 1 10-6
    NE year 2 9-7
    NE year 3 8-8

    So jets bad, NE was 11-6 the year before Carroll and steadily got worse under Carroll

    Seattle
    7-9
    7-9

    neither winning records

    Then he got Wilson, and we have been 9-7 or better every year. But how much is Carroll? that is the question.

    The problem I have with Carroll is his unwillingness to do what good coaches do, game plan every game, make adjustments and play to the strengths of the players you have.
    John63
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  • Maelstrom787 wrote:
    Fade wrote:The irony.
    Not saying that playoff appearances are the indicator of a successful season.

    I would say that it most certainly is; If they don't make it into the playoffs, there is ZERO chance of playing in the big game.
    I believe that some major tweaking & tune-up is a must, I can also see where Pete isn't content with just sitting on his @ZZ either, thus the Firing of Schottenheimer, & the hiring of Waldron & Co.
    As smart as some of the outsiders (including Cowherd) believe that they are, Pete has probably forgotten more about the intricacies of the game, than almost ALL of these yokels.
    Quarterbacks are the field Generals, and as such, should have some input on how the battles should be drawn up, but it's NOT their job to replace the TEAMS Coaches, QB's getting older, slows the game, AND the feet down, but with more experiences in the trenches, it's imperative to speed up the decisions, & release....No Offensive line can hold up stellar Defenses indefinitely...Take what they'll give you, but for crying out loud, Get rid of the damned ball LIKE TOM BRADY DOES, and LIVE to make the next play.
    There are a lot of things going on behind the scenes that we aren't privy to, we can only speculate.
    Guys like Cowherd like to stir the pot, but aren't any more insightful than the rest of us, otherwise, they'd be........COACHES.
    Last edited by scutterhawk on Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    scutterhawk
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  • John63 wrote:So lets look at Carroll's record

    NE was 11-6 the year before Carroll

    17 games?
    Pete made up for his slow start after REBUILDING during the first couple of years, and then A Super Bowl win, and right back to the SB the very next season.
    Yes, it was with Russell Wilson, but let's be honest, it was with side-kick Marshawn & the LOB to boot.
    Pete & Russ, WITHOUT having the LOB, has still kept the Seahawks in contention, even winning the NFC WEST this year, very much has to be in the conversation too.
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  • jammerhawk wrote:Unfortunately it’s the same arguments over and over and over. Somehow worked into almost any thread. Tiresome.

    Now lately with Wilson’s stated unhappiness Pete is the devil incarnate, can do nothing right, and is a drag on the team. We must choose between them. Give me a break.

    I do think Pete needs to attempt to be more inclusive in his decision making if it is truly the case he is running an autocracy at headquarters. Somehow though I suspect much of this stuff is highly exaggerated.


    It’s all good! Atleast nothing is conclusive! RW commands a high trade value & Pete gets his new Franchise QB! Play the game to settle the disputes!
    FresnoHawk68
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  • Are there any coaches in the past 20 years with multiple convincingly winning seasons with mediocre or worse QBs?

    I get the point regarding Pete, but given the importance of the position, it seems like even great coaches don't win consistently without a good or great QB.
    pinksheets
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  • pinksheets wrote:Are there any coaches in the past 20 years with multiple convincingly winning seasons with mediocre or worse QBs?

    I get the point regarding Pete, but given the importance of the position, it seems like even great coaches don't win consistently without a good or great QB.


    You mean great coaches draft great QB’s! We need a new QB Carroll needs to draft him ASAP. Carroll took the Job in Seattle because it gave him the final say on everything. It’s been this way since Day 1 Seattle extended Carroll because they like it & Schneider resigned with Seattle because he likes it.

    Paul Allen’s death has had zero impact on Carroll’s power! RW wants out of Seattle then make it formal relinquish the no trade clause or in written format give Seattle a list of teams Russ will go to.

    Gossip on talk shows will get Russ nowhere with Pete & John. Pete & John are sharks & Russ is a goldfish.
    FresnoHawk68
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  • FresnoHawk68 wrote:
    pinksheets wrote:Are there any coaches in the past 20 years with multiple convincingly winning seasons with mediocre or worse QBs?

    I get the point regarding Pete, but given the importance of the position, it seems like even great coaches don't win consistently without a good or great QB.


    You mean great coaches draft great QB’s! We need a new QB Carroll needs to draft him ASAP. Carroll took the Job in Seattle because it gave him the final say on everything. It’s been this way since Day 1 Seattle extended Carroll because they like it & Schneider resigned with Seattle because he likes it.

    Paul Allen’s death has had zero impact on Carroll’s power! RW wants out of Seattle then make it formal relinquish the no trade clause or in written format give Seattle a list of teams Russ will go to.

    Gossip on talk shows will get Russ nowhere with Pete & John. Pete & John are sharks & Russ is a goldfish.



    LOl yeah to bad in the NFL has been proven a top QB means more than a top HC.
    John63
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  • FresnoHawk68 wrote:You mean great coaches draft great QB’s! We need a new QB Carroll needs to draft him ASAP. Carroll took the Job in Seattle because it gave him the final say on everything. It’s been this way since Day 1 Seattle extended Carroll because they like it & Schneider resigned with Seattle because he likes it.

    Paul Allen’s death has had zero impact on Carroll’s power! RW wants out of Seattle then make it formal relinquish the no trade clause or in written format give Seattle a list of teams Russ will go to.

    Gossip on talk shows will get Russ nowhere with Pete & John. Pete & John are sharks & Russ is a goldfish.


    Lol! Pete got an extension because Jody Allen and crew know nothing about football and dont care to learn. Team is making money so as long as that is happening, why not let Carroll be the babysitter. They had no idea before offering that extension that the real reason the team is successful (franchise QB) was going to relent a little about how things are going. Russ will be eating shark fin soup when this all said and done. In the next couple of years when the real crap starts hitting the fan, Jody Allen will sell.
    Last edited by pittpnthrs on Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    pittpnthrs
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  • FresnoHawk68 wrote:
    pinksheets wrote:Are there any coaches in the past 20 years with multiple convincingly winning seasons with mediocre or worse QBs?

    I get the point regarding Pete, but given the importance of the position, it seems like even great coaches don't win consistently without a good or great QB.


    You mean great coaches draft great QB’s! We need a new QB Carroll needs to draft him ASAP. Carroll took the Job in Seattle because it gave him the final say on everything. It’s been this way since Day 1 Seattle extended Carroll because they like it & Schneider resigned with Seattle because he likes it.

    Paul Allen’s death has had zero impact on Carroll’s power! RW wants out of Seattle then make it formal relinquish the no trade clause or in written format give Seattle a list of teams Russ will go to.

    Gossip on talk shows will get Russ nowhere with Pete & John. Pete & John are sharks & Russ is a goldfish.

    Ah yes, I look forward to the next Tarvaris Jackson, Charlie Whitehurst and Matt Flynn.

    Carroll had to report to Allen when he was alive. They had meetings every so often to discuss the direction and vision of the franchise. Paul Allen was hands off but demanded accountability. He moved on from Mora after a single year, and he also stripped Holmgren of GM powers quickly. He was hands off, but also extremely proactive when he deemed necessary. That is what made him such a great owner, Jody Allen is not that -- it is clear she is just a placeholder. I think she's just content with holding onto Carroll as a transitional guy for whoever decides to buy the Hawks. I'm not sure how long she wants to hang on to them.

    Allen probably would have been in Carroll's ear right about now, putting pressure on him. I absolutely buy that Carroll has unchecked power and no accountability.
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  • Credit goes to PC for building a championship caliber team in 2012-2015. The biggest issue I have with PC is since then is the lack of attention to coaching. His teams are ill-prepared for their opponents (especially in the playoffs) this goes back to the 2016 playoffs when they played the Panthers in the divisional game. It makes me wonder if he's paying attention to coaching the team. He's a great motivator and can pump up the guys but they need a head coach who can create game plans/strategy to beat their opponents. Plus make players better by developing them. Lockett is the only player I can say that has become a star under Carroll since 2016. One player developed into a bonafide top 10 star under Pete Carroll's coaching in the last 5-6 seasons. They don't need a cheerleader- they already have the SeaGals for that. They need the coach that PC was back in 2012-2015, the architect that built those teams and developed his players to become champions.

    PC having unquestioned power wouldn't be a big issue if Seahawks were achieving to the level they as they had been doing from 2012-2015. Pete had the same amount of power then too.
    hawkfan68
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