Sounds like it's down to going back to the Bucs or going to the Seahawks for Fournette. If he's cheap, I'd take him. Why not,

"Fournette is weighing his options with an offer from the Buccaneers and also an offer from the Seahawks, according to Albert Breer of SI.com."

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... -seahawks/

I think he stays with the Bucs unless Seahawks offer a crazy amount.

Word is the Patriots are in play too.

Coulda had him on the cheap a year ago and passed. So now we're looking to up the ante?
I'll admit he played well for the Bucs last year...maybe we should do an offensive line comparison the see how that translates to how well he might do here.

Appyhawk wrote:Coulda had him on the cheap a year ago and passed. So now we're looking to up the ante?
I'll admit he played well for the Bucs last year...maybe we should do an offensive line comparison the see how that translates to how well he might do here.

He was a JAG till the playoffs, didn't seem highly motivated and was complaining to Arians, Arians had to baby sit him and tell him to be patient his time would come, which it did come the playoffs. He also had issues seemingly in Jacksonville. Guys was elite in college since he was such a physically more dominant athlete, he has a Cam Newton complex though I think. When faced with adversity looks to hide in a towel and blame others.

chris98251 wrote:

Appyhawk wrote:Coulda had him on the cheap a year ago and passed. So now we're looking to up the ante?
I'll admit he played well for the Bucs last year...maybe we should do an offensive line comparison the see how that translates to how well he might do here.

He was a JAG till the playoffs, didn't seem highly motivated and was complaining to Arians, Arians had to baby sit him and tell him to be patient his time would come, which it did come the playoffs. He also had issues seemingly in Jacksonville. Guys was elite in college since he was such a physically more dominant athlete, he has a Cam Newton complex though I think. When faced with adversity looks to hide in a towel and blame others.

He had injury issues with the Jags, and he was a problem in the locker room because he didn't like losing. His issue in Tampa was that he wanted to start, and he felt he was better than Jones.

Personally, his situation reminds me a little bit of Marshawn's; he's an immensely talented RB whose had two productive seasons with an injury history and an attitude problem. If they can get him on a cheap prove it deal, I like it. At worst, he's a poor mans Derrick Henry with a similar injury history as Carson. At best, he's a top 3 RB that fits the Seahawks stylistically. How we fans feel about a potential deal seems to be entirely depend on the value of the deal.

not sure why he would come here who is blocking for him? Of course on the other hand he will probably get 20+ carries a game since PC wants to run more.

I'm not aware of Fournette being a problem in the locker room. The root of his problem in Jacksonville was GM Tom Coughlin. Jacksonville accounted for 25% of all NFLPA player grievances...and Fournette had several of them. Coughlin was fired. Fournette wasn't worth his 2019 salary to the Jaguars, which is why he was cut and cleared waivers. Multiple teams were interested in him at the salary level he accepted in Tampa Bay. He took a cheap 1 year prove-it deal with a contender. Now he's looking to get paid. Good player, but not a special player.

Pass. There was a lot of hate on this board for Alexander's more effort when it mattered, and Fournette is far worse than Alexander was. We can do much better than giving an aging RB veteran money by picking someone in the mid to late rounds in the draft.

John63 wrote:not sure why he would come here who is blocking for him? Of course on the other hand he will probably get 20+ carries a game since PC wants to run more.

Why wouldn't he? He can't supplant Ronald Jones in Tampa, and Seattle had a fairly good rushing attack last year. They just brought in guys who've been known to craft good rushing attacks, too.

I hope Fournette doesn't sign, because I don't think he's very good. If the money is equal, though, it'd likely be a good move for him.

Injury issues and inconsistent? He’ll fit right in!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

flv wrote:I'm not aware of Fournette being a problem in the locker room. The root of his problem in Jacksonville was GM Tom Coughlin. Jacksonville accounted for 25% of all NFLPA player grievances...and Fournette had several of them. Coughlin was fired. Fournette wasn't worth his 2019 salary to the Jaguars, which is why he was cut and cleared waivers. Multiple teams were interested in him at the salary level he accepted in Tampa Bay. He took a cheap 1 year prove-it deal with a contender. Now he's looking to get paid. Good player, but not a special player.

I'm confused, how was a RB, who put up damn near 1700 yards on a team with a bad QB, not worth a $6M contract? There had to be locker room problems; otherwise, why cut him after he was 6th in all purpose yards?

If the money is the same I'd much prefer retaining Chris Carson.

KinesProf wrote:If the money is the same I'd much prefer retaining Chris Carson.

Can't imagine Fournette would get even half of Carson's APY, honestly

Maelstrom787 wrote:

KinesProf wrote:If the money is the same I'd much prefer retaining Chris Carson.

Can't imagine Fournette would get even half of Carson's APY, honestly

You could be correct. I haven't even come across a whisper of speculation of what Carson's market is shaping up to be.

I feel like giving Carson significant money is a tough sell to an owner... "you want to pay him how much? And he is injured somewhat regularly? And they found him in the 7th round ? " " Go find me a younger, cheaper, healthier version in the draft".

RB's are a dime a dozen, spending decent to big money on them is dumb. Sign a vet from the McVay/Shanny tree on the cheap later in Free Agency, grab another later in the draft, and bring in a couple of UDRookieFAs to compete with Collins and Penny.

Any amount of good money not spent on D-Line or O-Line is a fail.

I don't see him bringing anything new or skills the Hawks don't already have. 3.8 average yards per rush last year would have put him in 6th place on the seahawks running back list. Its like why bring him in?

Fade wrote:RB's are a dime a dozen, spending decent to big money on them is dumb. Sign a vet from the McVay/Shanny tree on the cheap later in Free Agency, grab another later in the draft, and bring in a couple of UDRookieFAs to compete with Collins and Penny.

Any amount of good money not spent on D-Line or O-Line is a fail.

If that were the case we would not be shopping, anyone can run behind a line where you get hit in the backfield and have to make yards after contact almost every play right?

Some peoples kids..............

chris98251 wrote:

Fade wrote:RB's are a dime a dozen, spending decent to big money on them is dumb. Sign a vet from the McVay/Shanny tree on the cheap later in Free Agency, grab another later in the draft, and bring in a couple of UDRookieFAs to compete with Collins and Penny.

Any amount of good money not spent on D-Line or O-Line is a fail.

If that were the case we would not be shopping, anyone can run behind a line where you get hit in the backfield and have to make yards after contact almost every play right?

Some peoples kids..............

The line isn't that bad, and it certainly isn't that bad at run blocking.

Maelstrom787 wrote:

chris98251 wrote:

Fade wrote:RB's are a dime a dozen, spending decent to big money on them is dumb. Sign a vet from the McVay/Shanny tree on the cheap later in Free Agency, grab another later in the draft, and bring in a couple of UDRookieFAs to compete with Collins and Penny.

Any amount of good money not spent on D-Line or O-Line is a fail.

If that were the case we would not be shopping, anyone can run behind a line where you get hit in the backfield and have to make yards after contact almost every play right?

Some peoples kids..............

The line isn't that bad, and it certainly isn't that bad at run blocking.

So Lynch and Carson getting hit behind the line is their fault and why they led the league in yards after contact ? It doesn't have to be the lineman, it's the running scheme, we don't run to holes, we run to gaps or supposed gaps, how many times have you seen LB's and DT's split gaps and make contact with our RB's.

Also seems like a lot of our O lineman that move on perform well somewhere else also.

knownone wrote:I'm confused, how was a RB, who put up damn near 1700 yards on a team with a bad QB, not worth a $6M contract? There had to be locker room problems; otherwise, why cut him after he was 6th in all purpose yards?

Fournette was due a guaranteed $4.2M in his final year with the Jaguars. To that point he had been a mediocre 4.0 avg rusher who wasn't a threat receiving and was nothing special as a blocker. If the Jaguars had been willing to trade him for a low pick they might have found a taker. If he had been a problem they would have moved on from him in March 2020. Either way a team would probably have picked up his $4.2M guarantee. No team was willing to pick up that $4.2M guarantee once preseason had finished. He cleared waivers at $4.2M. (Were all 32 teams wrong?). His value was generally thought to be around $3M, which is what he signed for. He was largely unproductive with the Buccaneers and was close to being cut after being a healthy inactive for Week 14. He's a good player and probably worth a risk at $3.3M if his style fits your offense. Personally I think that style is outdated and sub-optimal in 2021.

Fade wrote:RB's are a dime a dozen, spending decent to big money on them is dumb. Sign a vet from the McVay/Shanny tree on the cheap later in Free Agency, grab another later in the draft, and bring in a couple of UDRookieFAs to compete with Collins and Penny.

Any amount of good money not spent on D-Line or O-Line is a fail.

Dime a dozen but most aren't worth $h!t...look at rb room. One of the worst in the league. Run first strategy?

chris98251 wrote:

Maelstrom787 wrote:

chris98251 wrote:

Fade wrote:RB's are a dime a dozen, spending decent to big money on them is dumb. Sign a vet from the McVay/Shanny tree on the cheap later in Free Agency, grab another later in the draft, and bring in a couple of UDRookieFAs to compete with Collins and Penny.

Any amount of good money not spent on D-Line or O-Line is a fail.

If that were the case we would not be shopping, anyone can run behind a line where you get hit in the backfield and have to make yards after contact almost every play right?

Some peoples kids..............

The line isn't that bad, and it certainly isn't that bad at run blocking.

So Lynch and Carson getting hit behind the line is their fault and why they led the league in yards after contact ? It doesn't have to be the lineman, it's the running scheme, we don't run to holes, we run to gaps or supposed gaps, how many times have you seen LB's and DT's split gaps and make contact with our RB's.

Also seems like a lot of our O lineman that move on perform well somewhere else also.

It's the running scheme more than the line.

The running scheme (our entire offensive scheme, really) is heavy on shotgun formation. Our RBs are never given a 'running start' and they often have to make their first cut pretty far behind the line of scrimmage. It worked back in the early days of Marshawn/Russell because we were one of the first teams to heavily implement the modern 'read-option' and Wilson was a legit threat to keep so Marshawn--besides being next to impossible to take down on first contact--also benefitted from defensive hesitation.

We don't have that benefit because Russell doesn't read 'keep' nearly as much these days and our shotgun-heavy run game just means our RBs have less of a head-start.


I'm interested in Fournette if the price is right, but do I think he's going to give us more than Carson? Probably not. Not if our scheme remains unchanged, so our most important run-game signing remains Shane Waldron.

Maelstrom787 wrote: and Seattle had a fairly good rushing attack last year.

Um,,,,,,what?

Not one game with a 100 yard rusher last year and the rushing attack was fairly good?

pittpnthrs wrote:

Maelstrom787 wrote: and Seattle had a fairly good rushing attack last year.

Um,,,,,,what?

Not one game with a 100 yard rusher last year and the rushing attack was fairly good?

Hard to rush for 100 yards when not a single Hawk received more than 18 carries in any game last year. They spread out the workload and the team finished 12th in total rushing and tied for 5th in ypc at 4.8. While not what we've seen in previous years and the scheme needed improvement, the rushing effectiveness wasn't quite as bad as advertised.

I'm not sure how a rather discontent Fournette would do here in another spread the load/RB by committee situation though.

Will be interesting to see if this happens.
Sounds like Chris Carson is close to signing with the Dolphins

pittpnthrs wrote:

Maelstrom787 wrote: and Seattle had a fairly good rushing attack last year.

Um,,,,,,what?

Not one game with a 100 yard rusher last year and the rushing attack was fairly good?

What West TX said.

The running game was good. It just wasn't utilized as much.

Volume statistics are almost never good indicators of how effective something is. Efficiency statistics are. Running 30 times for 3.5 yards a pop gets you a 100 yard rusher, but it's not good.

SoulfishHawk wrote:Will be interesting to see if this happens.
Sounds like Chris Carson is close to signing with the Dolphins

Maybe not. Fann posted this just a minute ago.



Still wouldn't expect him back, but I suppose he's not gone just yet. FWIW, I'd welcome him back for slightly more than what Kenyan Drake got, but would pass otherwise.

Sweet, thx.

With D.Moore's signing, we're now -1 in FA and eligible for a 4th round comp pick from Quill.

My guess is that we will wait for Carson to either return or go somewhere else before pulling a trigger on another marquee FA. Although, it's a reasonable assumption if we don't intend to resign Carson that he will land elsewhere and we can sign away. Cap is tight now though. We may have to move or restructure someone first.

flv wrote:

knownone wrote:I'm confused, how was a RB, who put up damn near 1700 yards on a team with a bad QB, not worth a $6M contract? There had to be locker room problems; otherwise, why cut him after he was 6th in all purpose yards?

Fournette was due a guaranteed $4.2M in his final year with the Jaguars. To that point he had been a mediocre 4.0 avg rusher who wasn't a threat receiving and was nothing special as a blocker. If the Jaguars had been willing to trade him for a low pick they might have found a taker. If he had been a problem they would have moved on from him in March 2020. Either way a team would probably have picked up his $4.2M guarantee. No team was willing to pick up that $4.2M guarantee once preseason had finished. He cleared waivers at $4.2M. (Were all 32 teams wrong?). His value was generally thought to be around $3M, which is what he signed for. He was largely unproductive with the Buccaneers and was close to being cut after being a healthy inactive for Week 14. He's a good player and probably worth a risk at $3.3M if his style fits your offense. Personally I think that style is outdated and sub-optimal in 2021.

In his final year with the Jags, he had 76 catches for 522 yards. Sounds like a receiving threat to me. If you look at the guys ahead of him on the all-purpose yards list, every single one of them is making north of $12 Million. There had to have been another reason he was cut. I'm assuming they didn't want to deal with the headache while feeling good about their rookie RB.

knownone wrote:In his final year with the Jags, he had 76 catches for 522 yards. Sounds like a receiving threat to me. If you look at the guys ahead of him on the all-purpose yards list, every single one of them is making north of $12 Million. There had to have been another reason he was cut. I'm assuming they didn't want to deal with the headache while feeling good about their rookie RB.

I guess we differ on what a receiving threat is, which is fair enough. Gurley averaged 9.3 yards per catch with several 40+ yard receptions. Fournette averages 7.3 with a career long of 31 yards. Fournette played against a lot of blitz & prevent defenses which ought to make RBs look better as receivers. Again, all 32 teams passed on him at $4.2M. He's a plodder and teams don't pay plodders. They pay players who create big plays, even if they're a headache of the field.

flv wrote:

knownone wrote:In his final year with the Jags, he had 76 catches for 522 yards. Sounds like a receiving threat to me. If you look at the guys ahead of him on the all-purpose yards list, every single one of them is making north of $12 Million. There had to have been another reason he was cut. I'm assuming they didn't want to deal with the headache while feeling good about their rookie RB.

I guess we differ on what a receiving threat is, which is fair enough. Gurley averaged 9.3 yards per catch with several 40+ yard receptions. Fournette averages 7.3 with a career long of 31 yards. Fournette played against a lot of blitz & prevent defenses which ought to make RBs look better as receivers. Again, all 32 teams passed on him at $4.2M. He's a plodder and teams don't pay plodders. They pay players who create big plays, even if they're a headache of the field.

By your metric, J.D. McKissic, who is exclusively a receiving threat, is not a receiving threat. I'm honestly not sure you've seen much of Fournette play because he's certainly not a "plodder". I mean, unless you also think Derrick Henry, Chris Carson, and Nick Chubb are plodders. Furthermore, according to Next Gen, he faced the most 8 man fronts in the league in 2019, so it's not as if he was gaining easy yards that season.

I did some research. Teams were weary of Fournette because he had trouble learning the playbook in Jacksonville, was late to meetings, and thought to highly of himself. Those are concerning, but his ability to play is not.

knownone wrote:By your metric, J.D. McKissic, who is exclusively a receiving threat, is not a receiving threat. I'm honestly not sure you've seen much of Fournette play because he's certainly not a "plodder". I mean, unless you also think Derrick Henry, Chris Carson, and Nick Chubb are plodders. Furthermore, according to Next Gen, he faced the most 8 man fronts in the league in 2019, so it's not as if he was gaining easy yards that season.

I did some research. Teams were weary of Fournette because he had trouble learning the playbook in Jacksonville, was late to meetings, and thought to highly of himself. Those are concerning, but his ability to play is not.

By your metric, Trent Richardson is a rushing threat. We can all play that game.

So...he had problems learning the playbook, somehow gained 1700 yards, and THEN the Jaguars cut him? If the Jaguars had cut him in 2018 when he had the issues you mentioned you'd have a point, but they didn't. They cut him in 2020 after he'd cleaned up his act.

https://www.bucsnation.com/2020/9/4/21422301/opinion-no-concerns-here-for-leonard-fournette-tampa-bay-buccaneers-2020

He wasn't a $6M player. Every team turned him down at $4.2M. The Buccaneers almost cut him during 2020.

https://www.nfl.com/news/buccaneers-almost-cut-leonard-fournette-before-epic-playoff-run

Derrick Henry, Chris Carson, and Nick Chubb are high quality performers. Fournette is not. Fournette is a limited, old-fashioned, bruiser - like CJ Anderson was in 2018. He can fill a role in certain offensive systems, and he's good at that, but that's it. Maybe he gets another $3M type contract in 2021. Maybe he'll go unsigned.

I'd be VERY nervous about the starting RB tantum of Fournette and Penny.

I'm hoping we can get Carson back on a one year deal.

Le’veon Bell and the late Frank Gore as a combo with Penny playing the perennial Procise role.

I don't know if its a reflection of our oline play, our play calling, or our running backs but when you look at the advanced stats for running backs from last season we didn't have any backs in the top 20 for yards after contact, yards after contact per carry, broken tackles, yards, or yards Before contact. Problem is Fournette didn't fair a whole lot better.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2020/rushing_advanced.htm

flv wrote:By your metric, Trent Richardson is a rushing threat. We can all play that game.

So...he had problems learning the playbook, somehow gained 1700 yards, and THEN the Jaguars cut him? If the Jaguars had cut him in 2018 when he had the issues you mentioned you'd have a point, but they didn't. They cut him in 2020 after he'd cleaned up his act.

https://www.bucsnation.com/2020/9/4/21422301/opinion-no-concerns-here-for-leonard-fournette-tampa-bay-buccaneers-2020

He wasn't a $6M player. Every team turned him down at $4.2M. The Buccaneers almost cut him during 2020.

https://www.nfl.com/news/buccaneers-almost-cut-leonard-fournette-before-epic-playoff-run

Derrick Henry, Chris Carson, and Nick Chubb are high quality performers. Fournette is not. Fournette is a limited, old-fashioned, bruiser - like CJ Anderson was in 2018. He can fill a role in certain offensive systems, and he's good at that, but that's it. Maybe he gets another $3M type contract in 2021. Maybe he'll go unsigned.

By what metric that I referenced, would Richardson and Fournette be comparable? Here are their best seasons.

Trent Richardson: 1317 Yards / 4.1 Y/T
Leonard Fournette: 1674 Yards / 4.9 Y/T

Let's dispel this notion that Fournette is an "old-fashioned" RB. First, he ran a 4.51 at 240 pounds. For perspective, that's faster than Henry, Carson, Chubb, Gurley, and 0.3 seconds slower than McCaffery, who was 203 pounds for his 40. Second, your statement is not backed up statistically. This is your 2019 list of RBs with the most 20 and 40-yard runs. Keep in mind, he had fewer carries than every RB on that list besides Cook, and he had the highest percentage of runs against 8-man fronts, and only Henry is near him in that category.

Nick Chub - Total 20&40+ runs: 15
Derick Henry - Total 20&40+ runs: 12
Leonard Fournette - Total 20&40+ runs: 11
Christian McCaffery - Total 20&40+ runs: 10
Chris Carson - Total 20&40+ runs: 9
Dalvin Cook - Total 20&40+ runs: 9
Zeke Ellioit - Total 20&40+ runs: 4

Furthermore, in 2017 he had the fastest play of the season against Pittsburgh, clocking in at 22.05 MPH.


I'm willing to believe teams didn't want him at $4m for off-the-field issues, his ability to grasp the offense, or even health issues; however, if the explanation is that he's "limited" by his style, I have no idea what you are watching. I'm watching his 2019 highlights. He looks explosive and agile. He makes guys miss in the open field. He runs guys over. If this is a "plodder" that is not worth $4M, sign me up.

knownone wrote:By what metric that I referenced, would Richardson and Fournette be comparable? Here are their best seasons.

Trent Richardson: 1317 Yards / 4.1 Y/T
Leonard Fournette: 1674 Yards / 4.9 Y/T

Let's dispel this notion that Fournette is an "old-fashioned" RB. First, he ran a 4.51 at 240 pounds. For perspective, that's faster than Henry, Carson, Chubb, Gurley, and 0.3 seconds slower than McCaffery, who was 203 pounds for his 40. Second, your statement is not backed up statistically. This is your 2019 list of RBs with the most 20 and 40-yard runs. Keep in mind, he had fewer carries than every RB on that list besides Cook, and he had the highest percentage of runs against 8-man fronts, and only Henry is near him in that category.

Nick Chub - Total 20&40+ runs: 15
Derick Henry - Total 20&40+ runs: 12
Leonard Fournette - Total 20&40+ runs: 11
Christian McCaffery - Total 20&40+ runs: 10
Chris Carson - Total 20&40+ runs: 9
Dalvin Cook - Total 20&40+ runs: 9
Zeke Ellioit - Total 20&40+ runs: 4

Furthermore, in 2017 he had the fastest play of the season against Pittsburgh, clocking in at 22.05 MPH.


I'm willing to believe teams didn't want him at $4m for off-the-field issues, his ability to grasp the offense, or even health issues; however, if the explanation is that he's "limited" by his style, I have no idea what you are watching. I'm watching his 2019 highlights. He looks explosive and agile. He makes guys miss in the open field. He runs guys over. If this is a "plodder" that is not worth $4M, sign me up.

Seriously! You're going to post a run against cover 0 with all 11 defenders within 3 yards of the LOS to demonstrate...anything? I could post Rams plodder Tre Mason going 89 yards against the Raiders in similar circumstances in 2014. He was so slow a Rams WR caught him and jogged with him.

Believe what you want. If Fournette gets $4.7M+ for 2021 it'll show you're right. If he signs for less than $3M before incentives and performance bonuses, or goes unsigned through June, we'll know you're way off.

All this because some dumb ass picked Penny over Chubb.

Fournette would be an absolute wrecking ball in this offense, when healthy. Sign him if we can get a fair deal. Dude breaks tackles, runs with attitude, and is fast enough to take it to the house when he breaks loose; Carson isn't. Fournette changes a game. He'll be especially dangerous in the 4th quarter against tired defenses.

Went back to Tampa.