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PC and JS have been BRILLIANT

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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:55 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    Maelstrom787 wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    hoxrox wrote:
    It's true they haven't drafted well since McCloughan left, but it is not with certainty they would be a losing team without Russ. Can you imagine what they could do with the roster if we had a Josh Allen, for example, and his rookie contract?

    The coaches know what they have in Russ. And that is player in his prime, who is very good, but who may have reached his ceiling? And costs the team a ton, to boot.

    His style of play has not been sustainable for an entire season. The off-schedule, backyard, scramble-drill type of play he lives or dies on, has diminishing returns. The moon ball we all love, apparently can be taken away by good NFL defenses. He is no longer a scary read-option threat. He needs strong run game support in order to be successful. RBs get hurt? We're toast. Two thousand plus yard receivers during the regular season? Awesome. But it just didn't mean much in the playoffs, did it?

    That said, it is in the best interest of the FO to make the most of what they got. And that is to build a TEAM around Russ that can be competitive in this league. Build a balanced team that won't give up 30+ points per game, so they aren't overly dependent on Russ to score 30+ points to win every game. Coaches know that is not sustainable for an entire season.


    I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

    Yeah the home run ball can be defended against. Maybe Pete and his lackeys should quit looking for it all the time.

    No, they dont run the read option anymore. It was getting Russ killed. Remember the season Russ had that bad ankle and was no threat to run and they still ran the read option? Good times.

    Every team needs some semblance of a run game. Seattle didnt have one single 100 yard rusher last season and they still won 12 games. Was that more due to Russ or the run game?

    Hawks could have had 4 1000 yard receivers and 2 1000 yard rushers and they still would have lost that playoff game with the Rams because the game plan was pathetic. The team doesnt have enough talent anymore to overcome Carrolls coaching gaffes. Therein lies the problem. Big picture is to not expect better results going forward when the team will never be able to recoup the needed talent to trump Pete's coaching deficiencies. Early round playoff exits is the ceiling for this team.


    You're gonna sit there with a straight face and defend heroball as a whole as reproduceable and common, yet in the next sentence criticize looking for the deep pass?

    C'mon, get it straight, man.

    You wanna talk about playing to Russell's strength? It's the deep pass. Plain and simple. That's his bread and butter.



    Yes he had a great deep ball, but if you take the bread away all you have is butter and it's a slippery slope, the two deep look took away the bread, to get it back you have to use a short and intermediate game which they didn't do.


    The plays were called and Russ ignored those receivers even if they were open.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:41 am
  • Maelstrom787 wrote:You can't defend heroball as a reproduceable method of football while criticizing a predisposition for deep passing as the opposite. It doesn't make sense.


    I don't think he was defending it as sustainable; I think he left out the word "not" in that sentence. It has happened a bunch over the years but it is NOT sustainable. :2thumbs:
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:53 pm
  • This team plays the exact same way every season, wins the exact same way, loses the exact same way, makes the same mistakes, etc, and the fans have split off into the same two unyielding factions. It's just boring at this point.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:10 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

    You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:52 pm
  • KiwiHawk wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

    You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.


    Not really though. Usually the 4th quarter heroics include quick tempo and aggressiveness that the other 3 quarters didnt have because its the offense going away from Petes schemes. Fans have complained for years as to why the offense wasnt ran that way from the start of the game. Its mind boggling actually.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:02 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

    You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.


    Not really though. Usually the 4th quarter heroics include quick tempo and aggressiveness that the other 3 quarters didnt have because its the offense going away from Petes schemes. Fans have complained for years as to why the offense wasnt ran that way from the start of the game. Its mind boggling actually.


    This is not rhetorical, but tell me how many teams since the merger were able to play that way for four quarters game in and game out and were successful with it for more than three seasons? Remember to use your definition of success as making the championship game for your answer.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:29 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

    You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.


    Not really though. Usually the 4th quarter heroics include quick tempo and aggressiveness that the other 3 quarters didnt have because its the offense going away from Petes schemes. Fans have complained for years as to why the offense wasnt ran that way from the start of the game. Its mind boggling actually.


    1. This is a case of the eye test lying to you regarding the tempo. Seattle is the 28th fastest team when trailing by 7+ points, taking only about a second less per play than their total average, according to 2020 data.

    2. Running an offense up-tempo constantly is a great way to get your defense absolutely murdered by putting them on the field for 40 minutes a game. Ask Chip Kelly.

    Look at the data. It's on Football Outsiders. The slower-paced teams are easily the more successful group. Seattle is 19th fastest, by the way - very close to average.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:10 pm
  • Quick tempo and aggressiveness have nothing to do with getting behind on the scoreboard. You can have the most sluggish offense in the NFL and take every second of the play clock every single down, and still complete drives.

    There is no NFL score for speed, only for touchdowns and field goals, safeties and extra points. If your drive ends in the end zone, it doesn't matter how you got there. Whether you pass, run, pass slowly, walk, crawl, whatever. In fact, if you are facing a high-powered offense, one good way to handle them is to keep your own offense on the field so they have fewer opportunities to score over the course of the game.

    If we completed our drives and got scores earlier in the game, there is no need for 4th-quarter heroics, at any pace. That's the bottom line. When Wilson takes a sack where he could have thrown the ball away, that can kill a drive. So can bad rushing plays - I'm not singling anyone out. But we don't need Russell queuing up the circus music and scrambling around every play looking for the rainbow shot when he could get the first down.

    I've seen tons of plays where Wilson refuses the short routes looking for the home-run. I've seen Wilson throw the ball away or take a sack rather than trusting his receivers to make catches. I've seen Wilson back his ability to escape and turn a 5-yard sack into a 22-yard sack. I've seen him running around for 8 seconds when every second represents a chance one of the OL will be flagged for holding. Drive killers.

    If that was Schottenheimer, then that's done and we can move on. If it's Wilson, then we still have a problem. We'll see if Waldron can sort it out.

    Don't get me wrong - I've seen many stupid running plays as well, from the play itself to the player running it to the underlying concept of what they were trying to do. As just one example you don't rush Penny or Dallas into a stacked box because it never, ever going to work, much less 2 plays in a row to see if they might not be expecting it. Hopefully a more modern offense can get those guys into space where they can actually flash.

    As good as Wilson is, and as heroic as he is in the 4th quarter, the fact is some of those comebacks happened because there was a problem scoring earlier in the game - whether by pass, run, whatever - and that has to be addressed.

    Before you throw stones, climb off your Wilson bandwagon for just a moment and look at what I actually said - all of it is true, and none of it suggests Wilson is not a great QB, because he is. However, the other side of the coin is not scoring early, and that does need to be addressed.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:19 am
  • BASF wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

    You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.


    Not really though. Usually the 4th quarter heroics include quick tempo and aggressiveness that the other 3 quarters didnt have because its the offense going away from Petes schemes. Fans have complained for years as to why the offense wasnt ran that way from the start of the game. Its mind boggling actually.


    This is not rhetorical, but tell me how many teams since the merger were able to play that way for four quarters game in and game out and were successful with it for more than three seasons? Remember to use your definition of success as making the championship game for your answer.


    Most teams run their offense with a sense of urgency to produce points I would say. Pete seems to run his more so with clock management in mind. I dont know of any other team in the NFL that runs the clock down to 1 before the snap. When I talk about being aggressive and up tempo, i'm not referring to a 2 minute drill.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:26 am
  • Maelstrom787 wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

    You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.


    Not really though. Usually the 4th quarter heroics include quick tempo and aggressiveness that the other 3 quarters didnt have because its the offense going away from Petes schemes. Fans have complained for years as to why the offense wasnt ran that way from the start of the game. Its mind boggling actually.


    1. This is a case of the eye test lying to you regarding the tempo. Seattle is the 28th fastest team when trailing by 7+ points, taking only about a second less per play than their total average, according to 2020 data.

    2. Running an offense up-tempo constantly is a great way to get your defense absolutely murdered by putting them on the field for 40 minutes a game. Ask Chip Kelly.

    Look at the data. It's on Football Outsiders. The slower-paced teams are easily the more successful group. Seattle is 19th fastest, by the way - very close to average.


    I guess my eye test of a slow plodding, predictable, clock eating offense is skewed. Must be another reason why Wilson leads or is tied with the most 4th quarter comebacks in his NFL tenure.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:35 am
  • KiwiHawk wrote:Before you throw stones, climb off your Wilson bandwagon for just a moment and look at what I actually said - all of it is true, and none of it suggests Wilson is not a great QB, because he is. However, the other side of the coin is not scoring early, and that does need to be addressed.


    Scoring early has been an issue for 10 years now though. Carroll's mantra is you cant win the game in the 1st quarter. When I see Wilson take over the game in the 4th quarter because he has to, its hard for me to lay the majority of blame on him for the sluggish offense in the previous quarters.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:44 am
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    BASF wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.


    Not really though. Usually the 4th quarter heroics include quick tempo and aggressiveness that the other 3 quarters didnt have because its the offense going away from Petes schemes. Fans have complained for years as to why the offense wasnt ran that way from the start of the game. Its mind boggling actually.


    This is not rhetorical, but tell me how many teams since the merger were able to play that way for four quarters game in and game out and were successful with it for more than three seasons? Remember to use your definition of success as making the championship game for your answer.


    Most teams run their offense with a sense of urgency to produce points I would say. Pete seems to run his more so with clock management in mind. I dont know of any other team in the NFL that runs the clock down to 1 before the snap. When I talk about being aggressive and up tempo, i'm not referring to a 2 minute drill.


    This is way overblown. AgentDIB went through a couple of games from last season and one of them was requested specifically since the perception was that it happened a lot in that game and the amount was less than ten percent of our snaps. There are plenty of other teams that run the clock down to zero before the snap. It has admittedly been two years since I had Sunday Ticket and watched seven games a Sunday, but the running down the clock to zero was not uncommon.

    My point was that the type of up tempo offense that Let Russ Cook advocates want is only effective for two or three seasons. The only one that maintained longer was the Bills with Kelly, Thomas and Reed and they only lasted as a top ten offense for five seasons until they were figured out. Wyche didn't go up tempo until the Bengals had already been a top ten offense for three years, and that was only effective for two years (only got past divisional round once). Kelly's up tempo offense, which was highly touted coming in, had no playoff victories.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:28 am
  • BASF wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    BASF wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    Not really though. Usually the 4th quarter heroics include quick tempo and aggressiveness that the other 3 quarters didnt have because its the offense going away from Petes schemes. Fans have complained for years as to why the offense wasnt ran that way from the start of the game. Its mind boggling actually.


    This is not rhetorical, but tell me how many teams since the merger were able to play that way for four quarters game in and game out and were successful with it for more than three seasons? Remember to use your definition of success as making the championship game for your answer.


    Most teams run their offense with a sense of urgency to produce points I would say. Pete seems to run his more so with clock management in mind. I dont know of any other team in the NFL that runs the clock down to 1 before the snap. When I talk about being aggressive and up tempo, i'm not referring to a 2 minute drill.


    This is way overblown. AgentDIB went through a couple of games from last season and one of them was requested specifically since the perception was that it happened a lot in that game and the amount was less than ten percent of our snaps. There are plenty of other teams that run the clock down to zero before the snap. It has admittedly been two years since I had Sunday Ticket and watched seven games a Sunday, but the running down the clock to zero was not uncommon.

    My point was that the type of up tempo offense that Let Russ Cook advocates want is only effective for two or three seasons. The only one that maintained longer was the Bills with Kelly, Thomas and Reed and they only lasted as a top ten offense for five seasons until they were figured out. Wyche didn't go up tempo until the Bengals had already been a top ten offense for three years, and that was only effective for two years (only got past divisional round once). Kelly's up tempo offense, which was highly touted coming in, had no playoff victories.


    The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:36 am
  • KiwiHawk wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

    You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.



    Performance? Pete Carroll calls the plays, it holds the team back and then Russell Wilson has to bail out pete Carroll, that's how it works.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:50 am
  • All I have is 1 question can the Seahawks make it without Russell Wilson? Yes or no?


    (You know the answer to this question, which means all of you anti Russell Wilson people, need to stop being delusional.)
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:56 am
  • Tinamedina wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

    You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.



    Performance? Pete Carroll calls the plays, it holds the team back and then Russell Wilson has to bail out pete Carroll, that's how it works.


    Pete Carroll does not call the plays. He has overridden the play call from the offensive coordinator on occasion when he felt it was warranted. When it doesn't work, he admits it in the press conferences. When it does work, he does not take the credit for it, because that is the type of man he is. Why spread misinformation?
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:59 am
  • Tinamedina wrote:All I have is 1 question can the Seahawks make it without Russell Wilson? Yes or no?


    (You know the answer to this question, which means all of you anti Russell Wilson people, need to stop being delusional.)


    Who exactly is anti-Wilson? I can think of two people on this board who are, and I honestly don't know if they even post anymore. Some of you sound like a Twilight message board with Team Edward and Team Jacob.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:34 am
  • Tinamedina wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:I know its easy to do as its been so common place, but how do fans forget about Wilsons history of heroics in the 4th quarter, pulling the teams fat out of the fryer? He's done it for years now. Its an innate talent that cant be taught. Just a quality about Russ I though everybody should be reminded of. No, its sustainable all the time, but its happened a bunch over the years.

    You can look at it as 4th-quarter heroics, or you can wonder where that performance was in the other 3 quarters. There are two sides to that coin.



    Performance? Pete Carroll calls the plays, it holds the team back and then Russell Wilson has to bail out pete Carroll, that's how it works.


    He literally does not call the plays.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:18 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:Before you throw stones, climb off your Wilson bandwagon for just a moment and look at what I actually said - all of it is true, and none of it suggests Wilson is not a great QB, because he is. However, the other side of the coin is not scoring early, and that does need to be addressed.


    Scoring early has been an issue for 10 years now though. Carroll's mantra is you cant win the game in the 1st quarter. When I see Wilson take over the game in the 4th quarter because he has to, its hard for me to lay the majority of blame on him for the sluggish offense in the previous quarters.


    There seems to be this myth that Russell -- in defiance of his coaches -- decides to be more aggressive and starts calling (or making up?) his own plays when we are down in the 4th quarter to lead us to victory.

    First off, there's only one playbook, so he's not running anything that the coaches didn't put in and the team has practiced ad nauseum already.

    Second, I'd argue that he's not being more aggressive at all. Early in the game he's holding the ball and waiting for a sure thing or some homerun play to manifest to 'win' the game in the first half. THAT is aggressive -- to the point of being suicidal.

    Down late in the game, he's looking to extend the drive by any means possible. He realizes he might not get another chance, so he's hyper-focused on moving the chains if the homerun is not there. What if he started the game with that mindset?

    And what if he handed the ball off half the time so the opposing defense was tired in the 4th quarter instead of fresh from resting in Zones and 3-and-outs they didn't have to work for?
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:54 pm
  • Maelstrom787 wrote:
    BASF wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    BASF wrote:
    This is not rhetorical, but tell me how many teams since the merger were able to play that way for four quarters game in and game out and were successful with it for more than three seasons? Remember to use your definition of success as making the championship game for your answer.


    Most teams run their offense with a sense of urgency to produce points I would say. Pete seems to run his more so with clock management in mind. I dont know of any other team in the NFL that runs the clock down to 1 before the snap. When I talk about being aggressive and up tempo, i'm not referring to a 2 minute drill.


    This is way overblown. AgentDIB went through a couple of games from last season and one of them was requested specifically since the perception was that it happened a lot in that game and the amount was less than ten percent of our snaps. There are plenty of other teams that run the clock down to zero before the snap. It has admittedly been two years since I had Sunday Ticket and watched seven games a Sunday, but the running down the clock to zero was not uncommon.

    My point was that the type of up tempo offense that Let Russ Cook advocates want is only effective for two or three seasons. The only one that maintained longer was the Bills with Kelly, Thomas and Reed and they only lasted as a top ten offense for five seasons until they were figured out. Wyche didn't go up tempo until the Bengals had already been a top ten offense for three years, and that was only effective for two years (only got past divisional round once). Kelly's up tempo offense, which was highly touted coming in, had no playoff victories.


    The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.



    Data, every play I see the clock is at 0:01 or 0:00 at snaps, hell even in hurry up they seem to wait till 0:01.

    If that is mid tier tell me what teams are at -0:01 or above.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:25 pm
  • Own The West wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:Before you throw stones, climb off your Wilson bandwagon for just a moment and look at what I actually said - all of it is true, and none of it suggests Wilson is not a great QB, because he is. However, the other side of the coin is not scoring early, and that does need to be addressed.


    Scoring early has been an issue for 10 years now though. Carroll's mantra is you cant win the game in the 1st quarter. When I see Wilson take over the game in the 4th quarter because he has to, its hard for me to lay the majority of blame on him for the sluggish offense in the previous quarters.


    There seems to be this myth that Russell -- in defiance of his coaches -- decides to be more aggressive and starts calling (or making up?) his own plays when we are down in the 4th quarter to lead us to victory.

    First off, there's only one playbook, so he's not running anything that the coaches didn't put in and the team has practiced ad nauseum already.

    Second, I'd argue that he's not being more aggressive at all. Early in the game he's holding the ball and waiting for a sure thing or some homerun play to manifest to 'win' the game in the first half. THAT is aggressive -- to the point of being suicidal.

    Down late in the game, he's looking to extend the drive by any means possible. He realizes he might not get another chance, so he's hyper-focused on moving the chains if the homerun is not there. What if he started the game with that mindset?

    And what if he handed the ball off half the time so the opposing defense was tired in the 4th quarter instead of fresh from resting in Zones and 3-and-outs they didn't have to work for?


    some of what you say is true, however some is not. in the 4th qtr when we need it things do change, tempo changes, plays are called at the line not from the sidelines, we get to the line much earlier, we vary our tempo and when we snap the ball. adn a variety of other things. I do agree until then we play more tentative, playing not to make mistakes, playing passive until we have no choice. PC has said he wants to run, control the clock keep it close and win in the end. Well the main reason that can work is because he has a Qb like Wilson. Not all Qbs cold excel with that philosophy. Problem is it leave little margin for error so any little thing can throw it off. Such as a penalty.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:27 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    Maelstrom787 wrote:
    BASF wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    Most teams run their offense with a sense of urgency to produce points I would say. Pete seems to run his more so with clock management in mind. I dont know of any other team in the NFL that runs the clock down to 1 before the snap. When I talk about being aggressive and up tempo, i'm not referring to a 2 minute drill.


    This is way overblown. AgentDIB went through a couple of games from last season and one of them was requested specifically since the perception was that it happened a lot in that game and the amount was less than ten percent of our snaps. There are plenty of other teams that run the clock down to zero before the snap. It has admittedly been two years since I had Sunday Ticket and watched seven games a Sunday, but the running down the clock to zero was not uncommon.

    My point was that the type of up tempo offense that Let Russ Cook advocates want is only effective for two or three seasons. The only one that maintained longer was the Bills with Kelly, Thomas and Reed and they only lasted as a top ten offense for five seasons until they were figured out. Wyche didn't go up tempo until the Bengals had already been a top ten offense for three years, and that was only effective for two years (only got past divisional round once). Kelly's up tempo offense, which was highly touted coming in, had no playoff victories.


    The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.



    Data, every play I see the clock is at 0:01 or 0:00 at snaps, hell even in hurry up they seem to wait till 0:01.

    If that is mid tier tell me what teams are at -0:01 or above.


    Your anecdotal evidence is inaccurate. Seattle in 2020 took 27.72 seconds per play on average. The NFL as a whole was at 27.33 seconds. Green Bay was the slowest at 31.09 seconds, and Dallas was quickest at 23.59.

    If we're talking neutral situation, Seattle was the 22nd fastest at 30.68 seconds on average, compared to the slowest team in Green Bay at 32.83 seconds.

    This narrative isn't held up by facts, it's held up by being repeated ad nauseum. If you only see the ball being snapped at the end of the play clock, you're not watching all the plays.

    Again, data for 2020 and previous years via Football Outsiders: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... stats/2020
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:43 pm
  • Maelstrom787 wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    Maelstrom787 wrote:
    BASF wrote:
    This is way overblown. AgentDIB went through a couple of games from last season and one of them was requested specifically since the perception was that it happened a lot in that game and the amount was less than ten percent of our snaps. There are plenty of other teams that run the clock down to zero before the snap. It has admittedly been two years since I had Sunday Ticket and watched seven games a Sunday, but the running down the clock to zero was not uncommon.

    My point was that the type of up tempo offense that Let Russ Cook advocates want is only effective for two or three seasons. The only one that maintained longer was the Bills with Kelly, Thomas and Reed and they only lasted as a top ten offense for five seasons until they were figured out. Wyche didn't go up tempo until the Bengals had already been a top ten offense for three years, and that was only effective for two years (only got past divisional round once). Kelly's up tempo offense, which was highly touted coming in, had no playoff victories.


    The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.



    Data, every play I see the clock is at 0:01 or 0:00 at snaps, hell even in hurry up they seem to wait till 0:01.

    If that is mid tier tell me what teams are at -0:01 or above.


    Your anecdotal evidence is inaccurate. Seattle in 2020 took 27.72 seconds per play on average. The NFL as a whole was at 27.33 seconds. Green Bay was the slowest at 31.09 seconds, and Dallas was quickest at 23.59.

    If we're talking neutral situation, Seattle was the 22nd fastest at 30.68 seconds on average, compared to the slowest team in Green Bay at 32.83 seconds.

    This narrative isn't held up by facts, it's held up by being repeated ad nauseum. If you only see the ball being snapped at the end of the play clock, you're not watching all the plays.

    Again, data for 2020 and previous years via Football Outsiders: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... stats/2020


    I watch every game, almost every snap is at the 0:00 TO 0:03 mark. I am sure many others here can attest to this, it is also a symptom of how slow we get plays in and how long it takes Wilson to call the play and make line calls as well. But it's so predictable that D lineman can almost go ay 0:01 and never worry about a encroachment call.

    Possibly a reason Wilson takes so many hits also, the D line and blitzers can time themselves and get off before our offense does. How many plays have we had where people in game day say they came across before the snap or were in the zone? It's because they can time the snap, they have a play clock to look at also.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:11 am
  • chris98251 wrote:
    Maelstrom787 wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    Maelstrom787 wrote:
    The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.



    Data, every play I see the clock is at 0:01 or 0:00 at snaps, hell even in hurry up they seem to wait till 0:01.

    If that is mid tier tell me what teams are at -0:01 or above.


    Your anecdotal evidence is inaccurate. Seattle in 2020 took 27.72 seconds per play on average. The NFL as a whole was at 27.33 seconds. Green Bay was the slowest at 31.09 seconds, and Dallas was quickest at 23.59.

    If we're talking neutral situation, Seattle was the 22nd fastest at 30.68 seconds on average, compared to the slowest team in Green Bay at 32.83 seconds.

    This narrative isn't held up by facts, it's held up by being repeated ad nauseum. If you only see the ball being snapped at the end of the play clock, you're not watching all the plays.

    Again, data for 2020 and previous years via Football Outsiders: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... stats/2020


    I watch every game, almost every snap is at the 0:00 TO 0:03 mark. I am sure many others here can attest to this, it is also a symptom of how slow we get plays in and how long it takes Wilson to call the play and make line calls as well. But it's so predictable that D lineman can almost go ay 0:01 and never worry about a encroachment call.

    Possibly a reason Wilson takes so many hits also, the D line and blitzers can time themselves and get off before our offense does. How many plays have we had where people in game day say they came across before the snap or were in the zone? It's because they can time the snap, they have a play clock to look at also.

    And yet Wilson is literally the guy who signals when to snap the ball. If he wants to take fewer hits, and if snapping the ball with a second left is getting him hit, then he has the power to call for the snap at 2 seconds, or 3, or 5. It's literally his job.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:12 am
  • chris98251 wrote:
    Maelstrom787 wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    Maelstrom787 wrote:
    The data showing Seattle as a mid-pack tempo team backs this up pretty conclusively, as well.



    Data, every play I see the clock is at 0:01 or 0:00 at snaps, hell even in hurry up they seem to wait till 0:01.

    If that is mid tier tell me what teams are at -0:01 or above.


    Your anecdotal evidence is inaccurate. Seattle in 2020 took 27.72 seconds per play on average. The NFL as a whole was at 27.33 seconds. Green Bay was the slowest at 31.09 seconds, and Dallas was quickest at 23.59.

    If we're talking neutral situation, Seattle was the 22nd fastest at 30.68 seconds on average, compared to the slowest team in Green Bay at 32.83 seconds.

    This narrative isn't held up by facts, it's held up by being repeated ad nauseum. If you only see the ball being snapped at the end of the play clock, you're not watching all the plays.

    Again, data for 2020 and previous years via Football Outsiders: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats ... stats/2020


    I watch every game, almost every snap is at the 0:00 TO 0:03 mark. I am sure many others here can attest to this, it is also a symptom of how slow we get plays in and how long it takes Wilson to call the play and make line calls as well. But it's so predictable that D lineman can almost go ay 0:01 and never worry about a encroachment call.

    Possibly a reason Wilson takes so many hits also, the D line and blitzers can time themselves and get off before our offense does. How many plays have we had where people in game day say they came across before the snap or were in the zone? It's because they can time the snap, they have a play clock to look at also.


    The data doesnt take Pete Ball into account. There's always two halves of the season for the Seahawks, the half where Carroll doesnt infringe upon the OC's plans, and the other half in which Pete takes over and forces his scheme on the team (running the play clock to 1 before the snap and falling into clock management mode). It happens every single year and i'm not sure why you are being so defiant about it.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:19 am
  • KiwiHawk wrote:And yet Wilson is literally the guy who signals when to snap the ball. If he wants to take fewer hits, and if snapping the ball with a second left is getting him hit, then he has the power to call for the snap at 2 seconds, or 3, or 5. It's literally his job.


    Wilson also has a cadence he goes through. With the plays coming in so late, he would literally need to be an auctioneer to get the ball snapped at 5 seconds.

    Getting the plays in and snapping the ball with no time on the play clock is a Pete issue, not Russ. Its Pete meddling with the offense and dissecting every play the OC calls and deciding if he's going to override it or not. If it was Wilson, it would have been corrected by now, but its every single season.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:44 am
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:And yet Wilson is literally the guy who signals when to snap the ball. If he wants to take fewer hits, and if snapping the ball with a second left is getting him hit, then he has the power to call for the snap at 2 seconds, or 3, or 5. It's literally his job.


    Wilson also has a cadence he goes through. With the plays coming in so late, he would literally need to be an auctioneer to get the ball snapped at 5 seconds.

    Getting the plays in and snapping the ball with no time on the play clock is a Pete issue, not Russ. Its Pete meddling with the offense and dissecting every play the OC calls and deciding if he's going to override it or not. If it was Wilson, it would have been corrected by now, but its every single season.


    Do you have anything to back that up? This meddling angle is starting to sound almost comical, like he's a cartoon villain stealing the play call.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:21 am
  • It's really about wishful thinking. If Pete is the comical villain meddling with the play calls constantly then there's room for easy improvement. If instead he occasionally shields his OC and players from criticism by blaming himself for failed plays then everything is a lot more complicated and there aren't easy solutions.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:49 am
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:And yet Wilson is literally the guy who signals when to snap the ball. If he wants to take fewer hits, and if snapping the ball with a second left is getting him hit, then he has the power to call for the snap at 2 seconds, or 3, or 5. It's literally his job.


    Wilson also has a cadence he goes through. With the plays coming in so late, he would literally need to be an auctioneer to get the ball snapped at 5 seconds.

    Getting the plays in and snapping the ball with no time on the play clock is a Pete issue, not Russ. Its Pete meddling with the offense and dissecting every play the OC calls and deciding if he's going to override it or not. If it was Wilson, it would have been corrected by now, but its every single season.


    Wat

    Things like pace and tempo/hurry up, etc are things that are not only discussed each and every week when the coaches and players are in their meeting rooms, it's also practiced ad naseum.

    The run the clock all the way down each play allowing Russell to survey the defense and make protection and play changes if necessary? That's as much Russell as it is Pete and the O-Coordinator.

    Now it is what Pete wants as far as pace of the offense/ball control, but Russell is in on those meetings, so no it's not like Pete is meddling in game and that's throwing off Russell because he's totally surprised and confused.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:36 am
  • Pete is the coach. He is also de-facto the head of the organization.

    The buck stops with him.

    Everything is his fault. Full stop, no sarcasm.

    The idea that Wilson or anyone else has the power to change this is laughable. Pete is a notorious control freak. This is part of the problem given he is an aging coach clinging to an outdated football philosophy and bringing nothing new to the table anymore.

    If Pete could simply be circumvented, then he would have been. It took Wilson literally threatening his coach and organization to effect any change in the offense at all...and even then that was not enough as Pete clamped down on the offense at the 3/4 point again.

    There is a weird push to pile as much onto Wilson as possible.

    People even wanting to push a narrative that Wilson can only throw long and cannot throw over the middle now, or refuses to. Nevermind that Wilson seems to magically do this regularly at the end of games when we absolutely need to make a comeback.

    It does not matter who is strong or weak in certain areas. Pete sets the rules, likely picks the players, and determines the gameplans. (Or lack thereof) He is literally at fault for anything that goes wrong, by definition as the organization head.

    Wilson is not without his fault or faults. But when we are draining the clock down regularly the first 3/4 of the game...that is on Pete, because Pete believes that limiting offensive touches by the opponent is some sort of winning strategy. Pete also believes that keeping games close is an advantage for us. This is his doctrine and his strategy. When it continues to happen and does not help us..it is absolutely his fault.

    Pete is the reason this team has been a playoff team for years (mainly through Wilson) and he is the reason this team has failed to meet expectations in the playoffs for years. This is all on him.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:07 pm
  • Out of curiosity has anyone checked the time between breaking the huddle and snapping the ball?

    There's a lot of finger pointing and speculation about meddling and getting the call in late. I'm curious how much of our granted 40 seconds is spent at the line making reads, adjustments, and running the snap count. Are we average/fast/slow? If we're fast, then I'm okay with blaming the sideline for getting the play in late. If we're slow, then that would point to Russ...

    Also, every team in the league has delay of game penalties or takes timeouts to avoid them. I don't see it a huge problem that keep them/us/whomever out of the superbowl.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:29 pm
  • Own The West wrote:Out of curiosity has anyone checked the time between breaking the huddle and snapping the ball?

    There's a lot of finger pointing and speculation about meddling and getting the call in late. I'm curious how much of our granted 40 seconds is spent at the line making reads, adjustments, and running the snap count. Are we average/fast/slow? If we're fast, then I'm okay with blaming the sideline for getting the play in late. If we're slow, then that would point to Russ...

    Also, every team in the league has delay of game penalties or takes timeouts to avoid them. I don't see it a huge problem that keep them/us/whomever out of the superbowl.



    So A few things

    1. PC has admitted he likes to snap the ball late in the count to eat time
    2. ESPN paid part did something like this a year or so ago, and we were #1 in time used to snap the ball
    3. as to when the play get sin as opposed to break the huddle etc, that has not been done. All I know is when my friend and I watch the game you can see when Wilson gets the call, adn then when he gets to the line. In most cases minus 4th qtr He gets into the huddle to make the call with about 10 seconds or so lest. Which means when he gets to the line its 5 or fewer seconds. Not always mind you but most of the time.
    4. When you have a OC, with a HC who lies to stick his nose in everything it is going to happen.
    5. it has been talked about alot my the "experts" as well.
    6. All that aside the reality is in the 4th qtr when we need it everything changes, and we are virtually unstoppable. Any HC worth their salt would say hey lets keep doing what we do then. But not ours.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:11 pm
  • John63 wrote:
    Own The West wrote:Out of curiosity has anyone checked the time between breaking the huddle and snapping the ball?

    There's a lot of finger pointing and speculation about meddling and getting the call in late. I'm curious how much of our granted 40 seconds is spent at the line making reads, adjustments, and running the snap count. Are we average/fast/slow? If we're fast, then I'm okay with blaming the sideline for getting the play in late. If we're slow, then that would point to Russ...

    Also, every team in the league has delay of game penalties or takes timeouts to avoid them. I don't see it a huge problem that keep them/us/whomever out of the superbowl.




    2. ESPN paid part did something like this a year or so ago, and we were #1 in time used to snap the ball

    Link, please.
    pinksheets
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:51 pm
  • John63 wrote:
    Own The West wrote:Out of curiosity has anyone checked the time between breaking the huddle and snapping the ball?

    There's a lot of finger pointing and speculation about meddling and getting the call in late. I'm curious how much of our granted 40 seconds is spent at the line making reads, adjustments, and running the snap count. Are we average/fast/slow? If we're fast, then I'm okay with blaming the sideline for getting the play in late. If we're slow, then that would point to Russ...

    Also, every team in the league has delay of game penalties or takes timeouts to avoid them. I don't see it a huge problem that keep them/us/whomever out of the superbowl.



    So A few things

    1. PC has admitted he likes to snap the ball late in the count to eat time
    2. ESPN paid part did something like this a year or so ago, and we were #1 in time used to snap the ball
    3. as to when the play get sin as opposed to break the huddle etc, that has not been done. All I know is when my friend and I watch the game you can see when Wilson gets the call, adn then when he gets to the line. In most cases minus 4th qtr He gets into the huddle to make the call with about 10 seconds or so lest. Which means when he gets to the line its 5 or fewer seconds. Not always mind you but most of the time.
    4. When you have a OC, with a HC who lies to stick his nose in everything it is going to happen.
    5. it has been talked about alot my the "experts" as well.
    6. All that aside the reality is in the 4th qtr when we need it everything changes, and we are virtually unstoppable. Any HC worth their salt would say hey lets keep doing what we do then. But not ours.


    Yet again, the data shows that Seattle is one of the slowest teams in the league when trailing 7+, leading me to believe that they're not actually moving quicker, they're just moving the chains more. Russ takes off more, he throws tight windows more, and everything is done with a higher level of risk. This creates the impression of speed, but it's not really much faster - it's just that they're actually moving the ball.

    A 4 play TD drive that snaps the ball with 3 to go on the play clock each snap is gonna be perceived as quicker, but the tempo is still slow.

    Also, link on that ESPN analysis. Thanks.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:36 pm
  • As the discussion veers wildly off the original topic, it still is stretching things massively to use words like 'brilliant' when trying to evaluate Carroll's (JS's) FO moves. Decently competent, maybe.

    Great looking on paper? Sure.

    Likely to produce anything in the playoffs? No. Carroll will likely never again give us a divisional win in the playoffs. So the rest is just window dressing because there is almost certainly never to be another NFC Conference playoff game in Carroll's future.

    So using words like 'brilliant' is a stretch.

    Decently competent maybe.

    Brilliant is the kind of stuff the Chiefs are doing and have done. Filling holes immediately and getting better, not worse.

    Nothing the FO is doing is brilliant. If anything, they conducted themselves like morons during this whole Wilson debacle.
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:54 pm
  • pinksheets wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Own The West wrote:Out of curiosity has anyone checked the time between breaking the huddle and snapping the ball?

    There's a lot of finger pointing and speculation about meddling and getting the call in late. I'm curious how much of our granted 40 seconds is spent at the line making reads, adjustments, and running the snap count. Are we average/fast/slow? If we're fast, then I'm okay with blaming the sideline for getting the play in late. If we're slow, then that would point to Russ...

    Also, every team in the league has delay of game penalties or takes timeouts to avoid them. I don't see it a huge problem that keep them/us/whomever out of the superbowl.




    2. ESPN paid part did something like this a year or so ago, and we were #1 in time used to snap the ball

    Link, please.


    Would not help you its the paid part without my password which I will not give you could not see it Plus it was a year ago I doubt i could find it agan
    John63
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:03 pm
  • Shocker.
    Maelstrom787
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:38 pm
  • John63 wrote:
    pinksheets wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Own The West wrote:Out of curiosity has anyone checked the time between breaking the huddle and snapping the ball?

    There's a lot of finger pointing and speculation about meddling and getting the call in late. I'm curious how much of our granted 40 seconds is spent at the line making reads, adjustments, and running the snap count. Are we average/fast/slow? If we're fast, then I'm okay with blaming the sideline for getting the play in late. If we're slow, then that would point to Russ...

    Also, every team in the league has delay of game penalties or takes timeouts to avoid them. I don't see it a huge problem that keep them/us/whomever out of the superbowl.




    2. ESPN paid part did something like this a year or so ago, and we were #1 in time used to snap the ball

    Link, please.


    Would not help you its the paid part without my password which I will not give you could not see it Plus it was a year ago I doubt i could find it agan

    I can use my own subscription, my guy.

    Just need the link.

    You constantly cite vague data from unlinked articles supposedly behind a paywall in your posts.

    I just want to see the data to inform my own take.
    pinksheets
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Re: PC and JS have been BRILLIANT
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:32 am
  • pinksheets wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    pinksheets wrote:
    John63 wrote:


    2. ESPN paid part did something like this a year or so ago, and we were #1 in time used to snap the ball

    Link, please.


    Would not help you its the paid part without my password which I will not give you could not see it Plus it was a year ago I doubt i could find it agan

    I can use my own subscription, my guy.

    Just need the link.

    You constantly cite vague data from unlinked articles supposedly behind a paywall in your posts.

    I just want to see the data to inform my own take.


    #1 I usually I post the links to the data I talk about so saying constantly is wrong. The only time I don't is when it's a paid site. Which counting this time would make it 5 since I have been in this forum. That said I will try to find it again.
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