Another possible reach??

[Seymour]

We currently have an embarrassment of riches at the DE spot with the trade for Clowney and Ansah returning this week - Collier is a full participant in practice, but no need to rush him back. We had other roster spots we needed depth at, so Collier didn't get the nod this week.

Me thinks thou dost protest/complain too much

Penny may have been a bit of a reach, but he's shown good burst when in space.....we just have not used him very well situationaly.

And I get the complaint about Carson's fumbles...but most have been great punchouts on nice runs by Carson....I think he needs to find a way to hold onto and control those, but I honestly think that most backs in the NFL fumble on those punch-outs.

Do we???

That "embarrasment of riches" got us ZERO SACKS and ZERO PRESSURES against Teddy 2 gloves. :roll:

Cam Jordan must be horrible because he didn't have a sack on Sunday and Russell dropped back like 55 times and held the ball i lot longer then Bridgewater did. Let's wait at least a season before calling someone a bust, which still isn't long enough.

You had to go to that extreme??

Is there no middle ground between "embarrassment of riches" and horrible?? :roll:

Nobody said bust. Again....find some flippin middle ground for
"Pete's" sake!!! :177692:

 

[LTH]

To be fair our most productive DE's have been Jefferson and Jackson. Are you going to make Collier active over Clowney and Ansah? No, I didn't think so...

Exactly! no pressure to develop!

LTH

 

[Fade]

Collier was a 2nd round prospect on the Seahawks draft board. The Seahawks did not anticipate (unfortunately) the kind of run the DE position had. That tied in with only having 5 picks, JS was trading down no matter what to get more.

The Seahawks have a horizontal draft board, graded against their own roster. And to them it looked barren at the position after Collier, so they took Collier.

I am just walking people through how they do it, for those uniformed.


Personally I am not a fan of the horizontal board, because it leads toward leaning on need. Rather than just taking the best players.

I prefer grading every player that fits into the scheme -> By skill & position they play (QB is worth more than FB, duh).
And putting them up on a vertical board.

Drafting for particular need is useless in today's game. NFL rosters turnover by 85-90% every 3 years. Every position is of need. Most rookies can't even help you in year 1 anyway. You also don't fill needs if the guy can't play, you have just compounded the issue.



I said all of that to say this.


JS will never take great players in the 1st rd because of the way they do things, but they give themselves a lot of chanced to find diamonds in the rough in the middle, and later rounds, so it all balances out in the end.

2015-2018
Lockett 3rd
Glowinski 4th (Not his fault Cable can't coach)(He made the Pro-Bowl with INDY and got paid.)
DK end of 2nd (3rd player taken)
Dissly 4th
Carson 7th
David Moore 6th
Jamarco Jones 5th
Phil Haynes 4th
Quinton Jefferson 5th
BBK 5th
Shaq Griffin 3rd
And a bunch more.


Collier isn't going to be a big time sack artist. Studying him I saw a guy that can become one of the best run stuffing DEs in the game. He is coming off a severe ankle injury, I wouldn't expect much from him this year. Next year he will fill the Quinton Jefferson role. He is very much a Quinton Jefferson clone, that should be better (elite) against the run.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Am guessing that Montana was referencing Ansah's 19 snaps vs the Saints but I'm not certain.

Ugh, yeah, mixed my guys up. That's what I get for posting from the parking lot. Apologies, Seymour.

 

[AgentDib]

Collier was a 2nd round prospect on the Seahawks draft board.

I do think that is likely, but only because they "almost never have first-round grades for more than 20 guys in the first round." Schneider has discussed that over the years and Gregg Bell provides the quoted material here.

 

[Popeyejones]

I think the draft is mostly a crapshoot, but the reprieve the Seahawks have gotten from the national media for their epic run of good drafting in the early 2K10s is now over.

For about five years the reaction to headscratching Seahawks picks was "It doesn't make sense to me, but it's the Seahawks, so it's gotta be a good one."

I think that time has now passed.

I think the Seahawks strategically approach the draft well (trading back, trading picks for established players), but when it comes down to actual selections they leave a lot to be desired.

I don't know if JS and PC got too gassed up by their epic draft run, but as for their actual selections it seems like they approach the draft like they're the smartest guys in the room, which is just really a piss poor way to make picks.

It's true that we never really know what is reaching and what isn't reaching for any particular pick, but year in and year out if everyone keeps thinking that a team is reaching over and over again there's probably some truth to it.

All to say as an outsider I think they APPROACH the draft in the right way and have a good philosophy about the draft, but when it comes to actually picking in the draft I'm much less enthused. The Hawks seem to really be into making picks that prove the other 31 teams and draft analysts wrong, and more often than not, as would be true of any team doing this over and over again, the Hawks are the ones who are wrong.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I know they've had a few good picks sprinkled in over the last 5-7 years. I didn't say they didn't. Don't @ me. :lol:

 

[HawkerD]

We currently have an embarrassment of riches at the DE spot with the trade for Clowney and Ansah returning this week - Collier is a full participant in practice, but no need to rush him back. We had other roster spots we needed depth at, so Collier didn't get the nod this week.

Me thinks thou dost protest/complain too much

Penny may have been a bit of a reach, but he's shown good burst when in space.....we just have not used him very well situationaly.

And I get the complaint about Carson's fumbles...but most have been great punchouts on nice runs by Carson....I think he needs to find a way to hold onto and control those, but I honestly think that most backs in the NFL fumble on those punch-outs.

Excuses, Excuses. The OP is DEAD on. Early round picks have disappointed since 2012.

 

[Tical21]

It's concerning that he can't beat out Brandon Jackson. It's concerning that Blair can't beat out Lano Hill.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

I think the draft is mostly a crapshoot, but the reprieve the Seahawks have gotten from the national media for their epic run of good drafting in the early 2K10s is now over.

For about five years the reaction to headscratching Seahawks picks was "It doesn't make sense to me, but it's the Seahawks, so it's gotta be a good one."

I think that time has now passed.

I think the Seahawks strategically approach the draft well (trading back, trading picks for established players), but when it comes down to actual selections they leave a lot to be desired.

I don't know if JS and PC got too gassed up by their epic draft run, but as for their actual selections it seems like they approach the draft like they're the smartest guys in the room, which is just really a piss poor way to make picks.

It's true that we never really know what is reaching and what isn't reaching for any particular pick, but year in and year out if everyone keeps thinking that a team is reaching over and over again there's probably some truth to it.

All to say as an outsider I think they APPROACH the draft in the right way and have a good philosophy about the draft, but when it comes to actually picking in the draft I'm much less enthused. The Hawks seem to really be into making picks that prove the other 31 teams and draft analysts wrong, and more often than not, as would be true of any team doing this over and over again, the Hawks are the ones who are wrong.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I know they've had a few good picks sprinkled in over the last 5-7 years. I didn't say they didn't. Don't @ me. :lol:

Spot on and agree 100%. The slide since the 2012-14 players got old/hurt/released/traded is noticeable to all of us. You can only stay at the very top with a constant infusion of GOOD young talent surrounding a franchise level QB because of salary cap restrictions, age, injuries. For the most part, PCJS have not done that. The QB has kept them in the lower tier of the playoffs but unless they hit on more draft choices I don't see a championship again. Hope I'm wrong of course.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

This is why I'm all for trading two first rounders to go get Ramsey, or one first rounder to go get Adams in NY.

Sure it's great to trade down and accumulate more picks, but that doesn't forgive our track record with first round mediocrity.

Two years of first rounders and we've drafted a backup RB and a D-lineman that can't even crack the gameday roster fully healthy.

So either keep trading down to grab more middle round picks, of which you're pretty good at, or trade them to get proven talent.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

No doubt about it. Trading a 1 for a guy that you flat out KNOW is a damn good player? Yes please.

 

[Popeyejones]

This is why I'm all for trading two first rounders to go get Ramsey, or one first rounder to go get Adams in NY.

Sure it's great to trade down and accumulate more picks, but that doesn't forgive our track record with first round mediocrity.

Two years of first rounders and we've drafted a backup RB and a D-lineman that can't even crack the gameday roster fully healthy.

So either keep trading down to grab more middle round picks, of which you're pretty good at, or trade them to get proven talent.

I think they'd reasonably be a little gun shy on Ramsey given that their more recent moves have been to prune the team of, well, "personalities."

If they could get Adams for a first they should be all over that, though, IMO (including the franchise tag they'd still have another three years (including this year) of team control on him too).

 

[Tical21]

This is why I'm all for trading two first rounders to go get Ramsey, or one first rounder to go get Adams in NY.

Sure it's great to trade down and accumulate more picks, but that doesn't forgive our track record with first round mediocrity.

Two years of first rounders and we've drafted a backup RB and a D-lineman that can't even crack the gameday roster fully healthy.

So either keep trading down to grab more middle round picks, of which you're pretty good at, or trade them to get proven talent.

No no no no no no no no. Ohh mama mia mama mia......

Our track record of trading for name players is far worse than our track record of making the selection.

Branch, Percy, Jimmy, Sheldon (ehhhhh, Clowney?)

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Well, no matter what we do, there seems to be bashing on one side or the other. Kind of the norm when it comes to the Front Office. Every front office makes mistakes, even the precious Pats.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

This is why I'm all for trading two first rounders to go get Ramsey, or one first rounder to go get Adams in NY.

Sure it's great to trade down and accumulate more picks, but that doesn't forgive our track record with first round mediocrity.

Two years of first rounders and we've drafted a backup RB and a D-lineman that can't even crack the gameday roster fully healthy.

So either keep trading down to grab more middle round picks, of which you're pretty good at, or trade them to get proven talent.

No no no no no no no no. Ohh mama mia mama mia......

Our track record of trading for name players is far worse than our track record of making the selection.

Branch, Percy, Jimmy, Sheldon (ehhhhh, Clowney?)

All these players contributed far greater than any 1st round player we've drafted. Which is quite the indictment isn't it?

Gotta back to Earl before you can name a 1st rounder that's lived up to his 1st round draft position.

 

[Seymour]

Am guessing that Montana was referencing Ansah's 19 snaps vs the Saints but I'm not certain.

Ugh, yeah, mixed my guys up. That's what I get for posting from the parking lot. Apologies, Seymour.

Accepted...
No problem, we are on the same page now.

 

[Seymour]

Collier was a 2nd round prospect on the Seahawks draft board. The Seahawks did not anticipate (unfortunately) the kind of run the DE position had. That tied in with only having 5 picks, JS was trading down no matter what to get more.

The Seahawks have a horizontal draft board, graded against their own roster. And to them it looked barren at the position after Collier, so they took Collier.

I am just walking people through how they do it, for those uniformed.


Personally I am not a fan of the horizontal board, because it leads toward leaning on need. Rather than just taking the best players.

I prefer grading every player that fits into the scheme -> By skill & position they play (QB is worth more than FB, duh).
And putting them up on a vertical board.

Drafting for particular need is useless in today's game. NFL rosters turnover by 85-90% every 3 years. Every position is of need. Most rookies can't even help you in year 1 anyway. You also don't fill needs if the guy can't play, you have just compounded the issue.



I said all of that to say this.


JS will never take great players in the 1st rd because of the way they do things, but they give themselves a lot of chanced to find diamonds in the rough in the middle, and later rounds, so it all balances out in the end.

2015-2018
Lockett 3rd
Glowinski 4th (Not his fault Cable can't coach)(He made the Pro-Bowl with INDY and got paid.)
DK end of 2nd (3rd player taken)
Dissly 4th
Carson 7th
David Moore 6th
Jamarco Jones 5th
Phil Haynes 4th
Quinton Jefferson 5th
BBK 5th
Shaq Griffin 3rd
And a bunch more.


Collier isn't going to be a big time sack artist. Studying him I saw a guy that can become one of the best run stuffing DEs in the game. He is coming off a severe ankle injury, I wouldn't expect much from him this year. Next year he will fill the Quinton Jefferson role. He is very much a Quinton Jefferson clone, that should be better (elite) against the run.

A couple of observations.

1) How do you know who was on their draft board? I trust (most) of what you post, but am curious where you get that information?

2) Even a second rounder (ie Bobby Wagner) should not be a healthy scratch after getting his first taste of action.

3) The point of the post is the pattern we are seeing, and Collier is looking at this point to follow it early on. But yes, of course the jury is still out.

4) If they pick by need, why does it appear they do not need him, or is he just plain underwhelming?

NO...I'm not saying bust to those extremists ready to pounce.....I'm saying he was picked too high...even as a 2nd IMO.

Pretty much agree with the rest. Good post!

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Time will tell. We are 3 games in to his rookie season. A lot left to be determined. Hopefully he pans out.

 

[scutterhawk]

It would be nice to see the team work Collier in more as the season progresses and that applies to Blair as well. I like what we're getting from Barton, BBK and Ugo but they need to clean up the penalties.

That being said, "reach" is a concept made up by fans after reading too many mock drafts. Finding good players is what matters, not what a player was listed at on a consensus mock draft big board on the internet somewhere. It's too early to say much about the 2019 draft class but here's what a pundit thought about the biggest reach in 2018.

The Indianapolis Colts' selection of South Carolina State linebacker Darius Leonard with the fourth pick in the second round was one of the draft's worst moves. They took four second-rounders, so they had plenty of room for error, but this one stands out as a head-scratcher... For whatever reason, we woke up Friday in a world where Indianapolis thought taking an FCS linebacker in the top 40 was a good idea.

With the benefit of hindsight, 31 NFL teams wish they had "reached" for Darius Leonard earlier than the Colts did. NFL teams aren't and shouldn't be afraid of drafting a player earlier than mock drafters think they should go if they think that's the right player for them. As fans, we can judge whether those picks turn out to be good NFL players but it's silly to talk about where players were supposed to go.

^^^^^^^ THIS !!!!!!!!!!!! ^^^^^^^
Piss & Moaners gunna Piss & Moan.....They fancy themselves to be WAYYYY better at evaluating talent than the Pros & Scouts.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

But you didn't pick the guy that I WANTED, blah blah blah......pretty much sums up every draft.